please tell me about the parenting culture in france

[mamaLHK]

we're thinking of spending a year or two in france (in or near paris) and i was wondering how it would feel as a parent. (if this opportunity came up pre-kids for us, i would jump at the chance). is it common to be a stay at home mom, or is it more common to work? is the culture a welcoming one for kids, or not? one of the things that i dont love about where i live (near boston) is that to me the parenting culture is not very kid friendly, but at the same time overly permissive. some cultures, like many in south america, seem to integrate children so much better into daily living, although they are not overly permissive. i'm just wondering if it would be fun or miserable as a stay at home, family centered mama (who is also striving to 'run the show' a bit more than she does now). please tell me anything you can about the parenting culture in france/paris. also,if there is a better place to post this, please let me know!

[osker]

Hi,
What a great question! I can't really tell you what it's like for sure, but I can tell you what I observed in Paris for the week I was there...
What I saw, and mind you DW and I both work with kids, so we watch kids and parents a lot, was that there wasn't a real culture of baby love there. It appeared to an outsider as though babies were simply tolerated until they hit about age 2, and then the love and enjoyment took off. We saw many families with babies in strollers who would push the stroller up near a table, sit down to eat with the family, and never even glance down at the baby the whole time they were eating. With 2+ kids there was much more interaction, talking, enjoyment of food together etc.
I noticed a lot more consistency in limit-setting than what I see here (also Boston area). For example, a two-mom couple was in the park with their four year old who was riding his scooter. He threw down the scooter and didn't want to ride it any more. Mom told him that he could either ride the scooter or pull the scooter behind him, and then she and Mama continued with their walk. The son took some time to complain a bit, then grabbed the scooter and pulled it along to catch up with them after which they all walked along happily together. Another example, a mother came into a kid's store with three children. The middle child (about 7) wanted to buy a belt, so she brought mom over to the belts, showed her that her pants were too big and sliding around. She picked out the belt she wanted, tried it on and showed mom. Mom said no and turned to leave the store. The little girl heaved a big sigh, took off the belt and left the store to catch up with mom and siblings.
I was amazed in both of these situations that a limit was set, mom held to it, and the kids didn't throw fits or whine to try to get what they wanted. Everyone was fine with the situation and moved on with their day. I notice here in the States that kids try to manipulate situations much more and that parents seem to give their children things out of guilt or indulgence.
All that being said, I did not see much in the way of breastfeeding, babywearing, and I have heard from friends that non-vax is not acceptable over there, so those are things to think about if your kids are little ones.

I'm interested in seeing what other people respond to this question as I would love to think about a move to France for a few years myself!

[IsaFrench]

it very much depends on where you live and whom you interact with .....

there are people interested in attachment parenting & a good bet for finding them is locating a LLL meeting

true about limit setting (a playgroup I go to, they have a red scotch tape on the floor to limit a portion of the space for babies and then older children -1 to 4 years old- have to learn that, "no" you are not allowed to ride over the red line with a bike or a sit on toy, you can push a stroller accross it though .... it is ALSO to teach some parents that "yes", it is possible/a good idea/useful to set limits to ones' children & to teach children that even their parents have to obey to some outside rules & that they are not so powerfull after all ....) ; further reading concerning typical French mindset regarding children education would be of works by Françoise DOLTO, some people found it a bit passé/missunderstood/overquoted .... but she's got a revival recently

that said I also see over here a lot of "permissive" parents who let their children get away with too much .....

one thing I like now back in France is that people don't routinely offer candy to my children (bank, airport, tourism office etc ....)

one thing I find appalling after 3 years in the US is that restrooms are either non existant or in an appalling state ...... I know some expat locally who feel "stuck home" and not as free to go as when in the US, planning outing with minute precision and startegic pit stops which greatly limit them in what they do ....

... well, that 's one reason I usually stop at the library when I go to town ....
(to use the restroom)

must dash on but will come back to read & add ideas in the next few days ....

[Marylizah]

Yes, I think parents can be very strict here. I've seen more yelling, hitting, shaming in the six weeks I've been back than in the entire 18 months I spent in the US, unfortunately.

And babies are sort of ignored until they hit toddlerhood.

That said, there are tons of fun things to do with your children here, and if they are a bit older (at least toddler age) you can have a lot of fun. Besides, it's a great experience for any family to live in another country for awhile.

Honestly, if you don't speak French, you will hanging out with other expatriates and will be able to choose between a more mainstream community (check out the Message Paris group) or a crunchier bunch, who you can find at English LLL meetings.

France is not as kid-friendly as the US in some ways (restaurants really aren't geared for kids, there are NO public toilets) and in other ways it is: tons of great parks with play spaces all over the place and lots of fun, traditional kid activities (merry-go-rounds, puppet shows, etc).

[ewe+lamb]

Parenting is very strict here - lots of shouting and shaming, you probably won't be getting into the babysitting side of things - which is probably best with everything I see where I live! There is Paris English Group LLL and Eiffel Tower Group which is setting up to start in September, both groups are/will be run in english, there are other groups in french all over paris and the subs! Parks are great, Parc de la Villette is great some folk like the Jardin d'Acclimatation (not my sort of thing though!), there are fantastic pick your own all around the subs of Paris - great for the kids when you're stuck in a flat! I'd look out for the schools really - depending on the age of your kids, some public schools are great and well the others leave alot to be desired - even in the better areas of Paris. Carrying babes is arriving but as someone said the other day to me really the french are about 5 years behind the rest of europe especially in childcare/birth etc. If you do come here - let us all know and we'll do our best to welcome you to the Ile de france!!:

Forgot to mention ANPA which is a group of crunchy mamas who get together now and then - Anglophone Natural Parenting Association - you can find them on yahoo.fr.

[jazzharmony]

Well, we all have our own experiences, perspectives and biases don't we. Paris is a very international city and like any other city there are a myriad of personalities, cultures, and parenting styles. Also, like any busy large city in the US, folks are often harried and you are only seeing a glimpse of their life. If you haven't raised babies in a large city it's difficult to understand what life is like there with small children and what the challenges are.

That being said, when I have brought my babies to Paris they have been smothered with love and attention. I can remember people literally crossing the street to come up to my son when he was an infant in a carrier, and cooing at him and holding his hands. The last time we were there my daughter spent much of her time on my back in a wrap and I got constant complements on that during our trip. As in any country, when you leave the city things are radically different. Calmer - people are more relaxed and able to sit and enjoy children more.
Breastfeeding openly is done all over France - it is common to nurse for at least 6mo but not many nurse long term. There are not many homebirths (not unlike here) but some homebirth and many do have natural birth. Midwives are commonly used in hospitals.

I personally do not find the parenting culture any more harsh than here in the US. I think we have just gotten so used to what we see here than we take it for granted and focus more on how others parent when we travel.

My children absolutely love being in France and they are showered with affection as was I growing up.

[mamaLHK]

Thanks, everyone, for your informative and interesting replies! I will write again when we start the preparation/serious planning stage!

[mamadebug]

I have taken my son two Paris twice - once for a month and once for 2 weeks. My dad lives there half of the year, and my husband lived there for a couple of years right before we met. So, when we have gone as a family, we have friends, many with kids, to connect with. I LOVE Paris - but I have to say I don't find it kid friendly. My DH and I talked about living there for a while (possible opportunity with his job) and decided we wouldn't do it with a young child. There are many, many great parks for - and they are filled with kids in the afternoon and weekends. But, to me, it seemed to be the only place it is acceptable to take kids! The only place I ever found a changing table in a public bathroom was the park bathrooms, and even that was inconsistent. I have only ever found 2 restaurants with high chairs (and one was in the Jardin d'Acclimitation which someone previously mentioned). I had a talk with a mom in a park and she told me it is considered "bad manners" to bring kids to places like restaurants, etc - of course, that was just one person, but it seemed accurate. The parenting style, from what I observed, is very strict and not very warm.

Originally Posted by jazzharmony

Breastfeeding openly is done all over France - it is common to nurse for at least 6mo but not many nurse long term. .

This is interesting - it is totally opposite from my experience. I NEVER saw another mom nurse in Paris. I nursed in public and got more than one odd look. One older French woman complimented me for nursing "such an old baby" - he was 7 months at the time - and said she had nursed her kids 25 years ago, that she thought it was healthier, etc. Two women I spent a fair amount of time with, who are both Norwegian, had each had two babies in Paris. They both said both times they were in the hospital to give birth (all within the last 7 years, so a current experience), the doctors and nurses asked them over and over if they were sure they wanted to do this, why they wanted to do this, it would be so much easier to give the baby a bottle, etc. Neither of them felt any support for breast feeding.

I think things are very different if you are in outside the city or in different regions, though.

On the other hand, I would say the country overall is family friendly in many of their policies - very low cost childcare, long maternity leaves, etc - but those would apply more to French citizens.

[IsaFrench]

recent statistics seen last week (but cannot remember where, sorry)

apparently nowadays in France, 65 % mothers breastfeed just after birth but only 15% do so at 6 weeks post partum ....

must say that I liked going to LLL meeting because it felt good to see another 10 or 12 women breastfeeding during the meeting

+ the most empowering meeting was a regional one where there were about 75 of us in one large room for a discussion ....

[chocolatefish]

We have been in France for about 8 months now and the following is very much my own impressions...

BFing approved of BUT not at the expense of instilling routines, getting baby to STTN, getting into childcare etc. The majority of mothers return to work at 3 or 4 months (mat leave recently increased to 6 months) and its very unlikely for BFing to continue after that. FF is way more popular. having said that I haven't had any negative comments for BFing DS in public. But most of the extended BFs I know here are English. And I've never seen anyone else doing it in public.

The use of creches and grandparents is very widespread, with many young babies into creches early. Even SAHM French mums will leave their LOs at the creche when they go for hair appts, dentist, gynaecologist, shopping etc rather than drag them along as per UK.

The priority for infant and toddler management is the routine! The entire country stops for lunch at 12, this includes all young children. They are then expected to sleep between 2 and 4. Gouter is then served, then playtime or a walk in the park. My sleep-when-he-wants-breastfeed-on-demand 16 month old DS is a real anomaly around here! We often find ourselves in the park alone if it happens to be between 12 and 330pm...

I agree though that the French love their family time. The parks are full to bursting with whole families playing and walking and eating and drinking every weekend in the sunshine! I love this side of France. However have to agree that there is very little accommodation of children / families - rare to find a high chair in a restaurant, even rarer to find a changing area. And yep French parents are very strict with their children, and tell them off / smack them for a whole range of things - getting dirty in puddles, eating messily, being noisy or over familiar... they do seem to think that it's very important to 'civilise' their wild young people asap! it's not illegal to physically chastise a child in France AFAIK.

Just my impressions.

[chaoticzenmom]

We lived near Orleans for a year with 3 children. I found many things shocking and disturbing and many things nice and comforting about French parenting.

Kids have thier place and are expected to be there. They're expected to be quiet and well behaved. My kids got stares/glares often in the grocery store for excitedly asking for this or that or general kid behaviour. I saw kids spanked in public (especially the grocery store) quite often. I saw a kid get scolded by a preschool teacher for having a runny nose...yep. She told him that he was disgusting and gave him a tissue and then scolded him for not grabbing his own tissue. I volunteered in the school ((not easy to do unless you know someone) and constantly heard shreeking from the teachers towards the kids. I got unwanted advice everywhere I went...EVERYWHERE!

But, like a PP said, parks are awesome. There's a lot for kids to do and kids have nice social lives (if separate from adults). Schools feed children REAL food in 3 courses. Families get together for drinks often. The medical system is awesome. There aren't as many vaccines on the schedule, although they're completely mandatory. Children in schools really DO socialize with each other. They have loong recesses without toys, so they play games with each other. They're not allowed to bring anything that cannot be played with a group. They do this thing in schools where they learn a new skill. My son's was iceskating. They walked the kids down to the skating rink every week and let them spend the afternoon iceskating. This goes on for several months. Others take the kids horeback riding, etc. They really give them the time to master things.

So, there's good and bad. One thing that I noticed about myself when I was there was that I had a very strong sense of safety. I don't know if it was because I didn't watch the news, but I felt very safe. Sometimes, I still wonder if we did the right thing by moving back to the U.S.

[Needle in the Hay]

My opinion is that you should go for it. Yes some places are not as kid friendly as in the U.S. and places you go (museums and the like) are not quite as hands-on for the most part, but you can bring stuff for your child to do when you go to restaurants and you can go to loud places where a kid being a kid is not going to be a problem. You can ignore any "oh la la"s or similar comments you might get. Be prepared not to take any of that stuff personally. People tend to be free and open with their opinions but that doesn't make them right.

It's certainly not miserable to be a stay at home mom in France. You get to do all the fun stuff during the week when the kids are in school ALL day long (the day usually runs from 9 to 5 or 8:30 - 4:30 with a 2-hour lunch) except on Wednesday when school is out, which is nice too because there is more going on that day. In some parts of France there is little to do with kids when school is in session (because everything for kids is closed) but in Paris that is not the case.

I think it's very important to be who you are and to do what works for your family. It doesn't matter what the other people around you are doing or what they think of it (whether in Boston or Paris).

btw, I lived in France for almost 12 years, now we are in a neighboring country. We go to France on a regular basis since all my in-laws live there.