this has probably been asked a million times...

[StrongFeather]

I am against circ'ing our to be born son, but my DH is back and forth. When we found out we were having a boy, I realized that this might be a battle that we had. I asked DH to do some research on his own and I would do the same, and then we would have a conversation about whether or not to circ. Well needless to say, he hasn't done his own research. So I don't know which way to approach him with information.

Arguments he has used are, the kids will make fun of him. Which I think I settled already.

It's hard to keep clean. How will we know how to handle it? It's not sanitary, etc.

Any help, or links would help me!
Thanks in advance..if there is good way for me to search this forum, or another post for me to look feel free to direct me to it. I am sure you get these kinds of posts here ALL the time.

[zenproof]

Sounds exactly the boat I am in.

At first I thought I wouldn't care either way - that I would leave that up to my husband to decide, considering he's the one with the penis.

Then we found out we are having a boy - and now I can't stop thinking about it. I just don't think its necessary. Obviously.

So I'm trying to build my case.

His primary concern - is one he recognizes is purely emotional. He worries about the implications of his son looking 'different' from his dad. And I completely empathize with how this dilemma might be for him. His main argument is the that he wasn't scared by circumcision - and so the whole 'hurting baby' 'scarring baby' thing doesn't do much for him.

How do you empower circumcized fathers to break the chain of 'what was done to them must be okay for their own sons'??

The strange thing, and again something he acknowledges, is that with almost everything he is a 'low to no - intervention' kind of guy. He could have his arm ripped off and wouldn't go to a dr. He doesn't trust most medical professions, and is generally of the philosophy that less is more when it comes to our bodies. But with this - he has no reference but his own experience. Which was harmless, in his opinion.

He has agree to sit down and go over the arguments of each side. To make an informed decision and not a purely 'emotional' one. But ultimately, I feel as though this is HIS decision. Please don't flame me for that.

I am trying to collect as much UNBIASED scientifically based information on this issue. The energy surrounding this topic is very EMOTIONALLY polarized and I really need to stick to facts. Can anyone steer me in the right direction?

I want him to sit with the best argument from either side, and see how he feels about it.

Suggestions?

Until then - its a very hard position to be in - as the woman, and the mother. I can use the whole 'its my baby' plea...but really, again - I just want to have a logical debate about it with information from both sides - that we can both feel good about.

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by zenproof

How do you empower circumcized fathers to break the chain of 'what was done to them must be okay for their own sons'??


But ultimately, I feel as though this is HIS decision. Please don't flame me for that.

I am trying to collect as much UNBIASED scientifically based information on this issue. The energy surrounding this topic is very EMOTIONALLY polarized and I really need to stick to facts. Can anyone steer me in the right direction?

I want him to sit with the best argument from either side, and see how he feels about it.

Suggestions?

Until then - its a very hard position to be in - as the woman, and the mother. I can use the whole 'its my baby' plea...but really, again - I just want to have a logical debate about it with information from both sides - that we can both feel good about.

A few points to ponder:
How do you empower circumcized fathers to break the chain of 'what was done to them must be okay for their own sons'??

Thats a very good question!

But ultimately, I feel as though this is HIS decision.

Not trying to flame you, but it really isn't your dh's penis. Its your ds'. Since your ds will be born with what every human blueprint has designed our genitals to be - reducing healthy sex organs shouldn't even be a 'choice'!

I am trying to collect as much UNBIASED scientifically based information on this issue.

Perhaps its a matter of opinion wether a source is bias or unbias. If it doesn't jive with the reader, then he or she may consider it bias.

StrongFeather, cleaning an intact penis is easier because all a care provider needs to do is wipe like a finger and NEVER retract the foreskin.

The foreskin is bonded to glans and will seperate on its own given time (average age is 10.5 yrs). This is nature way of protecting the meatus and glans of the male genitals during infancy especially in a soiled diaper, and protection during pre-adolescence. Another reason its bonded to glans is because the penis is still developing. Just as we wouldn't manipulate a newborn kittens' eyes to seperate the synechia, we shouldn't try to seperate the synechia of a child's prepuce (foreskin). When it does become retractable, all HE (the boy whom the penis is attached to) has to remember, is Retract Rinse Replace. Its really that simple.

A wound on a freshly circ'd penis (which takes up to 10 days to heal) requires a lot more work to care for. One has to worry about infections including MRSA on a vulnerable open circ wound. WARNING that link is graphic.


Congratulations on your upcoming arrival! Hope all goes well.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by zenproof

Sounds exactly the boat I am in.

At first I thought I wouldn't care either way - that I would leave that up to my husband to decide, considering he's the one with the penis.

Then we found out we are having a boy - and now I can't stop thinking about it. I just don't think its necessary. Obviously.

Ok so you're half way there. You know it isn't necessary.

Originally Posted by zenproof

His primary concern - is one he recognizes is purely emotional. He worries about the implications of his son looking 'different' from his dad. And I completely empathize with how this dilemma might be for him. His main argument is the that he wasn't scared by circumcision - and so the whole 'hurting baby' 'scarring baby' thing doesn't do much for him.

This is a tougher nut to crack than you might think because this is the primary reason you/he has put forth and you recognize that it is emotional yet later ask:

Originally Posted by zenproof

I am trying to collect as much UNBIASED scientifically based information on this issue. The energy surrounding this topic is very EMOTIONALLY polarized and I really need to stick to facts. Can anyone steer me in the right direction?

The problem is for this justification such information (unbiased, scientific information) truly doesn't exist. You're only going to have anecdotal information such as mine and here it goes. I am an intact guy and truth be told, the state of my father's penis never entered my mind as a child or even today, except when people ask about this issue. All I can say is that it was a completely non-issue but unfortunately I can't point to something concrete to say, "Here, see." Maybe, just maybe a boy might notice and ask but it will in no way emotionally scare him to be different from his dad. Just think of all the other potential differences that will be readily apparent. Surely height, build, hair and eye color to name a few. This will be the least obvious, if he ever notices. And if he does, you can just be honest. Parents here have reported that rather than being scared boys have empathy for their fathers when they hear why he is different, hopefully someone will share those anecdotes.

Originally Posted by zenproof

How do you empower circumcized fathers to break the chain of 'what was done to them must be okay for their own sons'??

Personally, I think to a degree the emotional problem is the other way around. By not circumcising their child, a circumcised father in someway is admitting that what was done to him was at the very best unnecessary and that might be a tough pill to swallow. For then next couple of years, he'll be bathing and changing his son and each time he will be confronted with that. I think the best thing to do is not to think about it in those terms but to realize that it's, as we say here, when you know better you do better. Not circumcising a son isn't an indictment on the father's state or what his parents did it's a better choice based on better information. Nothing more.

Originally Posted by zenproof

The strange thing, and again something he acknowledges, is that with almost everything he is a 'low to no - intervention' kind of guy. He could have his arm ripped off and wouldn't go to a dr. He doesn't trust most medical professions, and is generally of the philosophy that less is more when it comes to our bodies. But with this - he has no reference but his own experience. Which was harmless, in his opinion.

So go with that, just because it may or may not be harmless doesn't make it worth doing.

Originally Posted by zenproof

Suggestions?

Until then - its a very hard position to be in - as the woman, and the mother. I can use the whole 'its my baby' plea...but really, again - I just want to have a logical debate about it with information from both sides - that we can both feel good about.

Ask him to only focus on the rational, that's my suggestion. If you're in need of information regarding something more tangible like STDs or whatever we can provide rational points, papers, and information. But for what you think is currently the primary reason, you'll only get our experiences.

Please let me know if you need more.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by zenproof

At first I thought I wouldn't care either way - that I would leave that up to my husband to decide, considering he's the one with the penis.

He may be the one with the penis...but you are the one with the intact genitals. She who has the foreskin wins

Then we found out we are having a boy - and now I can't stop thinking about it. I just don't think its necessary. Obviously.

It's not just not necessary, it's downright damaging

His primary concern - is one he recognizes is purely emotional. He worries about the implications of his son looking 'different' from his dad. And I completely empathize with how this dilemma might be for him.

First off...this is the most ridiculous argument of them all...what if the baby has different colored eyes than him? What if your DH is balding? Will he still need the baby to match? At least the rest of the world would notice that he has different hair color...are they planning on walking around naked so people at the mall can compare their penises? I mean really...think about it...what if it were a girl and her vulva looked different from yours...would she (or you) be traumatized? Would you surgically change hers to match yours better?

On the other hand..if matching is so important...you will need to have your partner shave off all his pubic hair and wear an ice pack in his shorts so that his will be comparable in size to the new baby's.

Or...your husband could always restore his foreskin so they look alike, but he would still need to shave and wear the icepack...or get the baby a pubic hair toupee.

How do you empower circumcized fathers to break the chain of 'what was done to them must be okay for their own sons'??

Read this:
http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vuln...ty_of_men.html

and remember...just because something wrong was done to him doesn't mean you have to visit it upon your child. Are you planning on doing everything exactly like your parents did it with you?

They used to remove tonsils at the drop of a hat. They used to feed infants cereal at 2 weeks old. They used to have lead in gasoline...I could go on and on about things that have changed.

I am trying to collect as much UNBIASED scientifically based information on this issue. The energy surrounding this topic is very EMOTIONALLY polarized and I really need to stick to facts. Can anyone steer me in the right direction?

I want him to sit with the best argument from either side, and see how he feels about it.

There really is no argument on the pro side...there is no legit reason to cut up a baby's genitals.

http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/you_want_to_cut_off_what.html

Tons and tons of info here:

http://www.nocirc.org/

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by StrongFeather

I am against circ'ing our to be born son, but my DH is back and forth. When we found out we were having a boy, I realized that this might be a battle that we had. I asked DH to do some research on his own and I would do the same, and then we would have a conversation about whether or not to circ. Well needless to say, he hasn't done his own research. So I don't know which way to approach him with information.

Well, if he didn't research it how can he have an informed opinion?

Originally Posted by StrongFeather

Arguments he has used are, the kids will make fun of him. Which I think I settled already.

It's hard to keep clean. How will we know how to handle it? It's not sanitary, etc.

This first point was never a problem with me. And we have some other young male posters who will give you a similar story. The truth is that there is so much more information available today that even if he is in an area which is unfortunately high circ, people, even kids, will probably know much about the issue anyway and so it won't be a surprise. Long gone are the days when nobody knew anything about circumcision and most probably thought boys were just born that way. I seriously doubt that will ever be an issue.

Cleaning, no problem at all. I never even think much about it myself. I spend more time washing my hair. When you're doing it for him it's a wipe like a finger by the time he is retractable he'll be doing it himself and it will be a unconscious action that he won't even think about, promise.

Originally Posted by StrongFeather

Any help, or links would help me!
Thanks in advance..if there is good way for me to search this forum, or another post for me to look feel free to direct me to it. I am sure you get these kinds of posts here ALL the time.

If you have specific questions, please ask. We're here for you.

[Lynn08]

nak

I don't know if this will be helpful or not, but let me share my experience.

Friends of ours had a little boy about 4 yrs ago and decided not to circ. One of the reasons they shared with dh had to do with the number of nerve endins in the forskin. Which in my dh's mind meant not circed = better sex

Fast forward to last year when we were getting ready for baby #1. We thoguht we were having a boy (and I still hadn't really given much thought to circ vs uncirc) when dh informed me that we were not cir'cing because "I want my son to have more enjoyable sex than I do". I kid you not. He then went on to make some off-color jokes about *ahem* masturbation and said uncirc was the way to go.

Seriously, we have both done our homework since (and ended up having a girl, anyway), but that was the deciding factor for my dh - he wants to give his son(s) the best possible sex life he can.

Men

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by Lynn08

nak

I don't know if this will be helpful or not, but let me share my experience.

He then went on to make some off-color jokes about *ahem* masturbation and said uncirc was the way to go.

Men

Hmmm. No comment. :

[Quirky]

It's very important what a PP said about "she with the intact genitals gets to decide" because you should know that, as a woman, YOU have a foreskin too -- your clitoral hood, aka your prepuce, aka your foreskin.

In utero, babies' genitals develop from identical embryological and fetal structures. They are more similar than different. It is only sex hormones that make us into girls and boys -- but the nerve endings are the same.

When it comes down to it, a boy who loses his foreskin loses far more nerve endings than a girl who loses her clitoral hood.

But just for the sake of argument -- imagine yourself as a circumcised woman who had undergone what the World Health Organization calls Type I female genital cutting, i.e., the removal of the clitoral hood. Imagine that your society now recognizes that clitoral hood removal isn't healthier or more hygienic than leaving girls' genitalia intact.

Think about how you would feel if you grew up and realized that your mother had decided to remove your clitoral hood at birth, for no other reason than it had been done to her when she was born.

So you wouldn't know what sex would have been like with all of your clitoris intact -- a good chunk of it would be missing, and what was left would have been further desensitized by friction against your clothes. Imagine wondering for the rest of your life how your sex life (and your partner's) had been affected by your circumcision, and imagine your frustration at not being able to regain 100% of those sensations no matter what you did.

Imagine thinking of yourself as a tiny baby, fresh from the womb, strapped spread-eagled to a board, and being cut in the most sensitive place on your body.

Would it matter that you didn't consciously remember it as an adult? Or would you feel violated in hindsight, imagining the fear and horror and pain and total incomprehension you felt as a brand-new human being, completely incapable of defending yourself or of making the pain stop?

How would you feel about your parents, when you learned that they knew circumcision was unnecessary, but did it anyway for cosmetic or social or conformist reasons? Would it matter to you that they circumcised you for no other reason than to fit in or avoid teasing?

As a circumcised woman, you might feel like your circumcised dhs do now-- oh well, it's no big deal, it doesn't matter that I'm missing a really sensitive part of my genitals, and that I was strapped down as a newborn with my legs spread and a scalpel slicing away part of my genitals.

And you might want to circumcise your daughters, so that you could carry on the family tradition. You might want to do unto them what was done unto you, so that you wouldn't have to think about what you are missing. Because it can't be that important. And you would want to do unto them what was done unto you, because it couldn't have hurt that much, and besides, babies don't remember pain.

Or you might decide that you would not let the cycle of violence continue. You would protect your child and your child's inherent right to make his or her own decisions about his or her own body. Because you might realize that your child is not your property, and your child's body is not yours to alter for non-medical reasons, no matter what your own body looks like. You might realize that it is possible to make a better choice for your own child than the choice that was forced upon you, against your will.

Whether they are boys or girls, all babies are human beings. All babies have human rights. All human beings have the right to decide how their genitals will feel and function.

[Quirky]

Oh, and as far as unbiased information -- it should help that not. one. single. medical organization in the entire world recommends routine infant circumcision for health or hygiene reasons.

If the doctors agree that there is no reason to circumcise your baby, that should be the final nail in the coffin.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by Lynn08

nak



Fast forward to last year when we were getting ready for baby #1. We thoguht we were having a boy (and I still hadn't really given much thought to circ vs uncirc) when dh informed me that we were not cir'cing because "I want my son to have more enjoyable sex than I do". I kid you not. He then went on to make some off-color jokes about *ahem* masturbation and said uncirc was the way to go.

Just a bit of semantics here...but...it's not uncirc, it's intact. uncircumcised implies circumcised is the norm. For example, if you still have both of your arms, are you unamputated? If you have both of your breasts, are you unmatectamized? If you have your entire brain, are you unlobotomized?

I know it's just words, but as intactivists, we need to be careful about making intact the norm and circumcision the aborration.

[Lynn08]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm

Just a bit of semantics here...but...it's not uncirc, it's intact. uncircumcised implies circumcised is the norm. For example, if you still have both of your arms, are you unamputated? If you have both of your breasts, are you unmatectamized? If you have your entire brain, are you unlobotomized?

I know it's just words, but as intactivists, we need to be careful about making intact the norm and circumcision the aborration.

You're absolutely right - I apologize for my ignorance; I never thought of it like that.

[A&A]

Here are two links for YOU to read. (NOT to show your dh!)

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

[StrongFeather]

thanks for the answers ladies, now to get reading!

[Lula's Mom]

Originally Posted by zenproof

His main argument is the that he wasn't scared by circumcision - and so the whole 'hurting baby' 'scarring baby' thing doesn't do much for him.

zenproof, we're in the same DDC. Every time somebody posts that they found out they're having a boy, I flinch because I know they just might be having this discussion at home...

My DH is circumcised. He knew I am the type to do my research, so when I said we wouldn't circumcise if we had a son, he agreed immediately. And we didn't.

But for himself and his own circumcised penis- he had never thought anything of it. He didn't consider himself "scarred" by it either (even though physically, he has some of the worst scarring and pitting I have ever seen). That is, until I explained to him how it's done. I could see it dawning on him that it was done just like that to him as an infant. He was strapped down. He was cut with scissors and then a scalpel; his thousands of nerve endings were removed without his consent and he will never enjoy their sensations when we make love.

I hate that this man that I adore had to have that realization about his body-that he was violated when he was a newborn. But it made him an intactivist. He has talked to co-workers and friends about why they shouldn't circumcise their future sons.

I think even though it's terribly difficult, it's also terribly important that circumcised men understand that it's not just a little snip. 15 square inches of innervated skin was taken from them! Your DH might never get emotional about it like mine did, but he needs to know what exactly he is proposing you take from your son.

You've got to change your thinking from "it's really his decision because he has a penis and I don't." It's not his decision, or yours either, really. This penis will belong to your son, not to his parents, and only your son should have anything to say about it.

BTW, my son is 4 and has never mentioned anything about his Papi not having a foreskin (but he does comment on the size difference!)

[Greg B]

Here is a good source of information for him to read. It was written by doctors so should carry some weight. It won't help with the emotional arguments, but will give the reasons why RIC is not a very good choice from a logical, medical, and philosophical standpoint:

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...yStatement.pdf

Beyond that, you need to keep the focus on the trade offs. The default, risk averse, keeping options open strategy is to leave your son intact. Then he can do it if he feels it is good for him. And if it is done after he is fully developed, the results are more predictable and less likely to cause problems.

There are many intact men and boys these days, so the argument that he will look different or that women will shy away from him is no more valid than saying if he is circumcised he will look different and women will shy away from him.

So if your DH wants to argue for RIC, he must come up with an argument that explains the benefits in doing it that outweigh the loss of sexual function, feeling, and outweigh the human rights and genital integrity arguments. Parents have both a duty and legal obligation to make decisions in the best interest of their children, not based on their own feelings of how comfortable they would be and imagined issues that may or may not end up valid.

Regards

[hakunangovi]

StrongFeather and zenproof, you have recieved some really excellent responses, so I will not reiterate what others have said in a far more eloquent manner than I ever could. Suffice to say that my father was circumcised and I wish that we had been different. It was not like we ever sat around comparing penii. I can't begin to describe the disappointment, frustration and anger that I have felt over the fact that the most sensitive part of my genitals was unceremoniously hacked off. It was not their decision to make.
Maybe you should ask your DH this: "If we do circumcise our son, how are you going to explain to him that you had the most sensitive part of his body whacked off when he comes to us asking "Where is my foreskin" ?"

[zenproof]

thank you ALL for your input and wisdom...

i think he is coming around to the suggestion that we leave this decision up to our child - so that if he choses to circumsize his own penis one day he can do so. i find that i am becoming more emotionally charged about it than he is the more i decide in my mind i don't want it done.

we have always worked things out together - and always logic overrides emotion. i can't imagine this will be any different.

again, thank you!

[StrongFeather]

I am happy to say, that when I got home from work last night, DH came in to tell me that he thinks we shouldn't circumcise! In his words, he said it seems like a silly thing for him to put up a fight over.

I think what did it for him was looking at it from the stand point that our baby will grow up to be a thinking adult (just like us!) and leaving it intact is the best way to give that choice to our son. I feel SO MUCH better that I don't have to fight for my son to just be left the way he is!

Those articles you all posted really helped me get my view point and facts in order.
Thank you!!!

[jessjgh1]

oh the updates made my mother's day!!

hugs!!!!!
nak