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I bought "Baby Wise" AND a James Dobson book.... - Page 6

post #101 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by kihei091604 View Post
Just wondering if anyone has actually read a James Dobson book? I have read several and I do not recall a recommendation to CIO or recommendations to abuse children (I wouldn't have read the book if these things were recommended).
I have. I don't remember CIO, but I find his discipline suggestions to be pretty harsh.
post #102 of 158
Thread Starter 
I didn't buy "all" the copies of either book. I don't have that kind of time. Just 3 of one, and 1 of the other. I could have bought up the "What to Expect" books also, but my disdain for them is not as extreme. I don't think they are dangerous in the same way that the Ezzo & Dobson books are.

My thinking was that - because they were at a thrift store for $1 - they would more likely be bought by someone who wasn't sure what they were getting. ("Hey, cheap parenting books! My 1st baby is due any day now, I'm going to snag some of these!")

In a retail store, people are more likely to be looking specifically for a certain type of book. Thift stores (at least for me) invite more impulsive purchasing.

If I throw away a religious pamphlet (thereby preventing someone else from reading it), is that censorship?
post #103 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie View Post
No posts have been deleted on this thread. Perhaps it was a snafu on your end?
WHAT!? You're suggesting user error?! NEVER!

Good to know it wasn't deleted. I was corn-fused.
post #104 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by jitterBug mom View Post
As a librarian I have to strongly disagree with this. Most efforts at book banning/ censorship nowadays come from individuals or groups of individuals who attempt to get items removed from libraries etc. through petitions, defacement, stealing, or other means. With a thriftstore, it is a little more "grey" to me (especially since Ezzo has revised his methods and books in thriftstores are likely to be extra problematic). But I still would not personally do what the OP did. And I think it is easy for those of us who frequent an AP board to forget that there is strong public opinion that things like cosleeping and extended breastfeeding are abusive.
I can certainly see that it might be possible for a local group to campaign to have a certain book removed from the library in their town. I can even go so far as to imagine a radical group which went around systematically stealing or defacing copies of the book they disagreed with in the local book shops.

But that's still not censorship. It might make it marginally more difficult for me to come across that particular book by accident, but if I actually wanted to read it there's absolutely nothing to stop me from ordering it on Amazon or eBay. Unless said group is willing to tamper with the mail of everyone in their area ( a pretty serious crime and very difficult to manage!) there is really no obstacle to my being able to access that book. Even if I can't afford to buy it new I can probably get a used copy for half nothing online, or even borrow a copy from a friend outside the area.

Censorship happens when the authorities get involved - infringing on my rights to freedom, by opening my mail, by actually banning all copies of that book from the county/state/country and even enforcing it with punishments for the crime of owning/reading the banned book.

The OP has nowhere near that kind of power! She bought some books. Denouncing an act simply because of the intent behind it is a slippery slope too. The OP, and anybody else as a private individual, are perfectly entitled to buy books for whatever purpose they see fit without doing anything either legally or morally wrong.

Heck, I know someone who bought second-hand leather-bound books just to display on his shelves to make himself look cultured. He never opened a single one of them! While I find that silly, wasteful and pretentious I would never argue against his right to do that.

I do think moving books to the wrong section, or hiding them, in bookshops isn't a great idea, but mainly because of the shop assistants. They are the ones who have to take inventory and alphabetise or otherwise re-organise the books in their shop, so by doing that you're just making the job of a probably underpaid person a little bit more difficult than it needs to be.
post #105 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
Both more moral than book bookcases.
Okay, so now I want to make one of those, along with the book birdhouse and possibly the purse.
post #106 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by jitterBug mom View Post
And I think it is easy for those of us who frequent an AP board to forget that there is strong public opinion that things like cosleeping and extended breastfeeding are abusive.
All the more reason we can't just trust people to see how wrong the things in Ezzo are, even with a note about it in the book.
post #107 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
Both more moral than book bookcases.
I want one.
post #108 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by kihei091604 View Post
Just wondering if anyone has actually read a James Dobson book? I have read several and I do not recall a recommendation to CIO or recommendations to abuse children (I wouldn't have read the book if these things were recommended).
I think the references to children having died were specifically with respect to the Ezzo books, not the Dobson books.

I haven't read any of them - just a few excerpts from Pearl & Ezzo...although a couple of the Ezzo excerpts were really long.
post #109 of 158

Kindling

As a new frist time mom I bought baby wise without looking into it. The book horrified me!!!! Luckily it was winter and I was cold, it made good kindling.
post #110 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
Okay, so now I want to make one of those, along with the book birdhouse and possibly the purse.
I want to make the purse... in the shape of the birdhouse. wouldn't THAT be cute?
post #111 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by chipper26 View Post
He is quite harsh, and all in the name of God.
ugh, stay off my side, sir.
post #112 of 158
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post #113 of 158
Maybe we should feel good that someone(or several someones)was so horrified with the book/s that they gave them away.
post #114 of 158
This post may very well get me banned....

Haven't read through all of the posts so this may have been brought up before....I wonder if there is a discussion somewhere out there in cyberland about how someone went into a thrift store and bought all the Dr. Sears books just so they prevent somebody from the dangers of co-sleeping, creating needy infants by babywearing, etc. Being a former 100% Ezzo-er....I by no means will EVER tell someone to blindly follow them. However, most families I know who took P4P do not follow the books hook, line, and sinker. They do have minds of their own and they are not idiots. I know a couple of families that practiced AP for years and couldn't take it anymore b/c they were wore out. Most chew on the meat and spit out the bones. Kind of like I did with the Dr. Sears books. Not that I think attachment parenting is bad (I have learned a great deal from AP sources that has made me a better parent), but, AP is not the end all be all of parenting styles. I have my own parenting style based on the needs of my family at this time. We should always learn about both sides and then decide what is right and what is wrong for our families. I thank God everyday that I have recently acquired the confidence to discern what is right and what is wrong for my family and that I no longer need a book to tell me how to parent.
post #115 of 158
That is the point of AP, to meet the needs of an individual child, and do what is right for your family.

No one thinks you should force co-sleep a child that hates co-sleeping. Some kids need their space.

Each child is an individual and treating them like individuals and meeting those individual needs is what AP is all about, no checklist will define every child.



However this board does not support CIO, of *course* it is not the best thing for a baby to let it cry alone.

I once heard a good analogy and I don't remember where it came from Just imagine you are paralyzed in a foreign country and cannot speak the language. How could you tell them you are hungry or anything else?

Who would treat a *baby* in such a manner? If people would remember everything from when they were babies, would people treat them the same?
post #116 of 158
Quote:
I once heard a good analogy and I don't remember where it came from Just imagine you are paralyzed in a foreign country and cannot speak the language. How could you tell them you are hungry or anything else?

Who would treat a *baby* in such a manner? If people would remember everything from when they were babies, would people treat them the same?
I said that to my hubby when DS was just a baby and we were getting pressure from every end to just let him CIO! It's a fabulous analogy. I used it on my parents, and it shut them up
post #117 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by radishes View Post
I sort of assumed people were upset about CIO books in general, not just Babywise, but I get your point. I totally understand the damaging psychological affects of CIO, but I really have to question the brain damage issue. I have a high needs baby. She is 7 months now and getting much easier in some respects, but when she was younger, she could and would scream. For hours. While I was holding her, rocking, on top of me, next to me, on dad, in the swing, getting a bath, shushing, patting, babywearing, you get the idea. High needs babies have a notoriously difficult time falling asleep. They are intense and easily overstimulated. Sometimes you can do everything, hold that baby close, and they still scream their brains out from exhaustion. For hours. Are all those babies brain damaged?
I am no expert on this by any means but earlier today I was reading the position statement on responding to infant cues issued by the Australian Association for Infant Mental Health and it says that there is likely to be benefit in comforting and responding to an infant's distress even if they are not able to be easily consoled. http://www.aaimhi.org/polsSubs.htm
post #118 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by kihei091604 View Post
Just wondering if anyone has actually read a James Dobson book? I have read several and I do not recall a recommendation to CIO or recommendations to abuse children (I wouldn't have read the book if these things were recommended).
I have read a number of books, but its been a long time. The one discipline thing I remember is that he does recommend 1 instance for corporal punishment, that is deliberate defiance. It is the ONLY time he recommends it, and IMO he's very clear about what crosses the line to abuse. Obviously, this is not the thread to argue spanking, but I think it is hardly fair to compare Ezzo and Dobson. There are LOTS of people that recommend spanking as a valid form of punishment (again, I am not condoning it), you can hardly single Dobson out - TBH, I am the only person I know IRL that doesn't spank...and my family does not read Dobson, I can guarantee. Ezzo, on the other hand, gives extremely dangerous advice to parents of infants.
post #119 of 158
the word defiance just makes me cringe to be honest. I think its because so many times I have heard that term used as if being "defiant" were the same as being possessed by a demon or something. It's just seems to hold such a negative connotation for describing a child who will stand by what they believe.
post #120 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by kihei091604
Just wondering if anyone has actually read a James Dobson book? I have read several and I do not recall a recommendation to CIO or recommendations to abuse children (I wouldn't have read the book if these things were recommended).
"Dare to Discipline" very explicitly recommends spanking to discipline children up to age 8 and making sure that it is hard enough to make the child cry.

He also recommends using a paddle or switch.

Here's a charming quote from Dr. Dobson:

Quote:
"If children cry for longer than five minutes, "the child is merely complaining...I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears."
Oh and let me find the charming anecdote he wrote about beating his dog with a belt because it was defiant. After cornering the dog and beating it into submission, Dobson wrote:

Quote:
“But this is not a book about the discipline of dogs; there is an important moral to my story that is highly relevant to the world of children. JUST AS SURELY AS A DOG WILL OCCASIONALLY CHALLENGE THE AUTHORITY OF HIS LEADERS, SO WILL A LITTLE CHILD — ONLY MORE SO.” (emphasis Dobson’s)

“[i]t is possible to create a fussy, demanding baby by rushing to pick him up every time he utters a whimper or sigh. Infants are fully capable of learning to manipulate their parents through a process called reinforcement, whereby any behavior that produces a pleasant result will tend to recur. Thus, a healthy baby can keep his mother hopping around his nursery twelve hours a day (or night) by simply forcing air past his sandpaper larynx.”

“Perhaps this tendency toward self-will is the essence of ‘original sin’ which has infiltrated the human family. It certainly explains why I place such stress on the proper response to willful defiance during childhood, for that rebellion can plant the seeds of personal disaster.”
IMO Dobson is just plain evil.
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