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I bought "Baby Wise" AND a James Dobson book.... - Page 7

post #121 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by alwayshappy View Post
because its their right do do those things as parents - none of it is against the law, its not my right to impose my parenting decisions and choices on others. The fact I find them to be detrimental to a child is my personal view and one not shared by the law. In my eyes its wrong, but I wouldnt presume to ensure everyone raises their children as I raise mine.

No need to apologise for being classist - you hadn't reached that yet.

You are right about one thing its not against the law to be stupid by following those things in that parenting book but it doesnt make them ok or even right. Being stupid and ignorant isnt against the law but it should be when it comes to innocent childrens well beings. Anyway reguardless... I dont see what the big deal is either way and I see a lot of posters making mountains out of molehills about this. She paid for the books and she can do whatever she wants with them, end of story.
post #122 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by flower01 View Post
I have read a number of books, but its been a long time. The one discipline thing I remember is that he does recommend 1 instance for corporal punishment, that is deliberate defiance. It is the ONLY time he recommends it, and IMO he's very clear about what crosses the line to abuse. .
IME that only makes the "defiant" ones more defiant and at that point one has already lost.

I remember being on the receiving end of that quite clearly and I certainly did not care how many times I was hit, I wasn't giving in.
post #123 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by churndash View Post
"Dare to Discipline" very explicitly recommends spanking to discipline children up to age 8 and making sure that it is hard enough to make the child cry.

He also recommends using a paddle or switch.

Here's a charming quote from Dr. Dobson:

Here's a charming quote from Dr. Dobson:


Quote:
"If children cry for longer than five minutes, "the child is merely complaining...I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears."
This makes me sick. I just ate lunch and I want to vomit. Someone is crying out of hurt, shame, fear.... and this UV wants you to force the child to stop crying by spanking them more? This is just so sick.
post #124 of 158
my problems are when rights of parents interfere with rights of humans.
post #125 of 158
wow what a sick man that Dobson is

I think it would take an equally sick person to believe in what he says. He is suggesting plain abuse here, it's like the child abusers manual. sick.
post #126 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnAir View Post
I can certainly see that it might be possible for a local group to campaign to have a certain book removed from the library in their town. I can even go so far as to imagine a radical group which went around systematically stealing or defacing copies of the book they disagreed with in the local book shops.

But that's still not censorship. It might make it marginally more difficult for me to come across that particular book by accident, but if I actually wanted to read it there's absolutely nothing to stop me from ordering it on Amazon or eBay. Unless said group is willing to tamper with the mail of everyone in their area ( a pretty serious crime and very difficult to manage!) there is really no obstacle to my being able to access that book. Even if I can't afford to buy it new I can probably get a used copy for half nothing online, or even borrow a copy from a friend outside the area.

Censorship happens when the authorities get involved - infringing on my rights to freedom, by opening my mail, by actually banning all copies of that book from the county/state/country and even enforcing it with punishments for the crime of owning/reading the banned book.
Now as a former library worker myself, I really have to take issue with this.

Libraries are one of the main venues for freedom of information in our society. It is a public institution for the free dispersal of information. Not everybody can go order a book they want from amazon, or have the internet in their home. but even a homeless person can go to the Library to use the internet or get a book, and if the library doesn't have it, it can almost always be borrowed through inter-library loan. (Don't get me started on policies where you have to have a home address to get a card.

As soon as any group starts telling libraries that they can't have a particular book in them, that is censorship, whether it is government, industry, or citizens groups, and it is indeed the latter which seem to be the most active. A group in my old town tried to have Charlie and the Chocolate Factory removed, and for a time it was off the shelf while the case was reviewed.

Now, privately owned book stores are a different story, as I think it is really up to the owner what she sells. But I have found most book store owners try to be fair.

There are legitimate ways to get books out, and there may be some where that is appropriate. Anything that told people it was safe to eat cyanide, or that attempted to tell people that they should go out and kill all homosexuals, would be obvious candidates.
post #127 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by OakBerry View Post
I know you mean well, but that is censorship. What if somebody decided to do that to Dr. Sear's books?
Dr. Sears has never caused failure to thrive.
post #128 of 158
I've done that, too -- and tossed them.
post #129 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegoat View Post
It seems to me that this is part of why the Babywise books are so controversial, and the controversy in this thread too. I mean, I don't think people are suggesting we go out and burn Ferber books we buy from thrift stores (I'm sure now that someone will think that is a good idea.)

It's because those books present things in a way that is not safe. And there are ways to get books with unsafe info off the market. Babywise really walks that line, it's not just a difference in philosophy.
Walks the line, um, babies have suffered from FTT. Have they actually died? There was that child that died who's parents followed Pearls.

Heh, and I did buy a Ferber book at my thrift store and tear the pages out and trash it. Just last week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kihei091604 View Post
Just wondering if anyone has actually read a James Dobson book? I have read several and I do not recall a recommendation to CIO or recommendations to abuse children (I wouldn't have read the book if these things were recommended).
Yes, I didn't care for him as a child. I read all of my parents' parenting books.
Dobson's, Campbell's etc, etc. I was labeled a strong-willed child and my my mom tell me I was being defiant/stubborn/disobedient/hateful/backtalking, etc. I could not talk when she was mad without getting one of those. Now, She was raised very authoritarian, and moved away from that a great deal. But, Dobson made it okay to spank for 'defiance/disobedience'. I remember thinking "I might as well backtalk if I'm going to be accused of it."
Our relationship is still very rough.
Oh, and thankfully my parents did not read Ezzo/Pearls. They did read Jean Lindhoff's Continuum Concept and for them and their upbringings, followed a pretty amazing AP-style of raising kids that just included spanking. Okay, it wasn't much AP, but it was radically different from their childhoods.

Here are a couple links of reviews with quotes of The New Dare to Discipline and The Strong-willed Child:
http://www.stoptherod.net/dobson.html
http://www.stoptherod.net/new-strong-willed.html

He views the 'relationship' between parents and children as adversarial. Which is the wrong place to start for building a relationship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by flower01 View Post
I have read a number of books, but its been a long time. The one discipline thing I remember is that he does recommend 1 instance for corporal punishment, that is deliberate defiance. It is the ONLY time he recommends it, and IMO he's very clear about what crosses the line to abuse.
IME that only makes the "defiant" ones more defiant and at that point one has already lost.

I remember being on the receiving end of that quite clearly and I certainly did not care how many times I was hit, I wasn't giving in.
Me too.
post #130 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare to Discipline
by simply forcing air past his sandpaper larynx.
bolding mine.
The book is worse than I ever thought. When I think how much crying Lina had to do (in the car, no I wasn't about to pull over to the side of the highway at night while driving alone with her) to sound raspy, and THAT'S what that UAV Dobson calls "a little peep"??
post #131 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
bolding mine.
The book is worse than I ever thought. When I think how much crying Lina had to do (in the car, no I wasn't about to pull over to the side of the highway at night while driving alone with her) to sound raspy, and THAT'S what that UAV Dobson calls "a little peep"??
Dobson sounds like he hates children. Makes you wonder why he even bothered to write a book about how to raise them.

We got a Dobson marriage book from my DH's Fundy Xtian brother... it was but not really horrible. At least not that I can remember. I don't think I actually finished the whole thing.
post #132 of 158
"If children cry for longer than five minutes, "the child is merely complaining...I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears."


that gives me a sick stomach.
post #133 of 158
Me, too...and I utterly fail to understand how being in pain, probably shamed, probably scared that mom/dad doesn't love one, anymore, etc. constitutes "protest crying".
post #134 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by OakBerry View Post
I know you mean well, but that is censorship. What if somebody decided to do that to Dr. Sear's books?
well, not only that, but, most people I know of buy these type of books online at Amazon or Ebay anyway. This was just a thrift store where the people who would buy that type of book may not even go to shop. There are still plenty out there to be had.

I for one have never understood why "men" write a lot of these books in the first place. I saw quite a few for sale at children's consignment sales at churches I shopped at back in the spring. Most had male authors.
post #135 of 158
In the beginning of my parenting journey, I was introduced to James Dobson. I had quite a few books from him. My son was such a challenge, & I thought at the time he was just very "strong-willed" & "defiant". At the time, I never heard of AP....Lord knows how I wish I had. Dr. Dobson's methods are straight up dangerous, & teaches that you can, & should control your child totally 100% of the time. To me, his methods were a huge failure (duh, I want to smack myself now) & caused so much strife in our family.

My heart just aches that I followed this jerk in the beginning. I remember reading in one book how his son prayed at the dinner table "Dear Dad......" What does that say??? His son was equating his dad to God & Dobson got a kick out it!!

I also remember reading about how a teenage girl beat the heck out of her mother, & left her bleeding on the bathroom floor. His reason why the child was so troubled? Very strong willed & never disciplined (spanked). How disgusting is that??? As a psychologist, he is pretty ignorant when it comes to major mental disorders, as obviously this teen had...you have to be pretty messed up in the head to beat up your own family members....being a strong willed, "undisciplined" brat does not produce that level of violence!!

I think we should donate more AP style books to libraries, churches & thrift stores than trying to remove horrible books like the Ezzo's, WTEWYE, & Dobson....there is plenty of the bad out there, but not enough good for most people to know about!

Thankfully, I saw the light before my third child was born. I tossed my Dobson books. He just makes me SICK.
post #136 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by churndash View Post
"Dare to Discipline" very explicitly recommends spanking to discipline children up to age 8 and making sure that it is hard enough to make the child cry.

He also recommends using a paddle or switch.

Here's a charming quote from Dr. Dobson:



Oh and let me find the charming anecdote he wrote about beating his dog with a belt because it was defiant. After cornering the dog and beating it into submission, Dobson wrote:



IMO Dobson is just plain evil.

Oh.My.Gosh....I can just never get over the number of people who can look at a little baby, and see a manipulative defiant brat. I....I just can't. I have never, not one single time, no matter how upset she was or how tired I was....I've never looked at my crying child and seen anything but a little creature in need of comfort.

What's MORE....I've never, not ONE single time, ever NOT wanted to comfort her. I've never experienced anything but pleasure while rocking her, patting her little back and shhhhhh-ing her little tears away. That's the BEST feeling, being able to soothe her. Then, she is happy again, and all snuggled up in me. I never feel like more of a mother, than when I have been successful in soothing away her little tears. I cannot imagine, it breaks my heart to THINK of, little babies crying alone in their crib....no one coming to get them. Parents sitting on a couch, thinking "listento him trying to manipulate me!" - is that even REAL? Do these parents REALLY feel that way...or do they WANT to feel that way?

I can't imagine a mother really thinking that....really feeling like her babies cries for her warm touch, were no more than forced, manipulative defiance.


OP....I understand why you did what you did. I think if you made regular habit of going around town, say, weekly, to buy out ALL the Babywise/Dobson books at ALL retailers, in a true effort to ry and stamp them out...or if you were trying to have your state government place a ban on them...THEN I would have a problem with you, for sure! But a couple of $1 books, because you happened upon them?? As long as you don't burn them, that;s okay in MY book.
post #137 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamilla626 View Post
They used "To Kill a Mockingbird"!
That's an evil book, with step-by-step instructions on how to kill birds! I'm so glad they are using it as a way to help feed birds now!

Is it OK to buy Dobson and Ezzo books if you make nursing pillows or slings out of them?
post #138 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
And Viola, your public library probably has copies.
Yeah, they probably do. But I might be embarrassed to check them out--what would the librarian think? I'd probably have to go around and get a bunch of other books to disguise the Dobson book, kind of like when I'm buying . Wait, I can use a machine to check stuff out, that might work.
post #139 of 158
I recently got the ezzo online pamphlet and printed up several copies. I'm going to stick them in the copies at my libraries and bookstores. I HAVE bought copies of Babywise at the library friends' book shop (you know how the library has a little room with used books for sale, to profit the library programs?) and specifically told the clerk there why I was buying the book (to benefit the library but remove the chance that some parent would pick it up and be mislead and misinformed, to the misfortune of their baby). They were really interested in what the book actually said, and the failure to thrive issues, the excommunication of the Ezzos by the church and their own children, lack of real academic expertise in any relevant way... I figure it's a few more people out there who can share the info with their own (grown) children if nothing else.
post #140 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie75 View Post
I also remember reading about how a teenage girl beat the heck out of her mother, & left her bleeding on the bathroom floor. His reason why the child was so troubled? Very strong willed & never disciplined (spanked). How disgusting is that???
It's not only disgusting - it's mind-boggling. I personally knew three teenagers who beat up a parent. They were all boys, and two were brothers, who beat up their dad together. Both incidents were actually the "snap" that occurs when someone has been abused too long, and they were absolutely "disciplined" (if one can call it that), physically. The incident with the two boys happened when the second youngest in the family walked in to see his "little" (actually the biggest in the family) taking yet another beating...and he jumped to his brother's defense...and his brother then jumped to his defense. It was brutal and ugly - and it certainly had nothing to do with a "lack of discipline".
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