I don't want to be the stump...

[mama_mojo]

You know that book, The Giving Tree, by Shel Silverstein? Well, I loved that book until my first child was around two. Since then, all I can think of is how much I do not want to be a stump when my kids are grown and gone.

OTOH, my mother was not at all... I can't find the right words, so I'll give examples. She always talked on the phone in the evenings or watched her program on tv instead of interacting with us. She always spent an inordinate amount of time and money on her fingernails.

I think there must be a middle ground that shifts as children get older and as situations change. I just cannot find it. I feel like I make the mistake of being too concerned about being taken advantage of, so that I am not giving when it would cost me little and would give my children alot. But, I know so many women who act like their children cannot get their own glass of water or carry their own clothes to the hamper. They look MUCH more unhappy than me, they complain much more, and their children do not seem any happier than mine (at least to me).

Then- I have this friend who seems to be able to give just the right amount. It's like it comes naturally to her. I get so envious at times when I'm around her at the fluid way she balances her children's desires against her ability/willingness to do whatever for them. And still, she's not actually all that happy, and her oldest (she feels) treats her very shabbily. He's 6.

I don't know. Does anyone know the magic formula for being neither the stump nor a cold-hearted, unloving, un-generous mother?

[Tigerchild]

I'd say the best way is probably not to look at things as either or, and try to have compassion for all in that scenario.

Right now I feel like I am very much a stump because of the intense parenting I had to do by necessity with twins and a singleton 17 months apart.

And to be honest, I don't play a whole lot with my children now and am pretty protective of my time to read a book or whatever without constantly interacting with them. I'm sure at least one will rake me over the coals about this time in their lives when they're older, but to be honest, I gave and gave and gave when they were younger, and in order to prevent being totally TOTALLY burnt out even longer I started taking back some of my own time and space once they were old enough to play by themselves and do some things for themselves.

Part of my problem, honestly, stems from my relationship with my mother, who was abusive and had a mental illness while I was growing up. Because I was so determined to not be the slightest bit like her, I poured myself out like my inner child longed to have done for her--and it just about did me in. Now that I have some distance, I realize that I MUST find the real healthy balance, because reactionary parenting isn't always the best (at least, I find for me it really kinda sucks).

When you say that because your mother was so cold you feel pushed towards running headlong towards stumpdom, that makes me believe that perhaps you are caught in the same reactionary expectations that I find myself working through.

It's really scary. You may need outside support. But really, you CAN find a balance. It won't be what your inner child may still scream for from her mommy (keep in mind that the inner child may not always be reasonable or know the healthiest things), but it will be perhaps healthier, and perhaps in your parenting you can release your own children from the terrible burden of needing to fulfill their own inner needs that never got met and sometimes mixing them up with what your kids really need from you. Or I could be wrong and totally read the situation wrong, I realize that. Just something to think about.

[Xoe]

ROFLOL! Don't want to be a stump when it's all said and done? OP, I totally get that! (My daughter asked me to read the Giving Tree today, too, ironically.) Finding the middle ground? I think your heart/insticts/conscious tells you where it is, most of the time. The fact that you even asked that question means that you are probably pretty much on target. Parents who don't help their children learn to be self-sufficient are doing themselves and their kids a disservice. And parents who get their nails done when their kids need them have their priorities upside down.

Personally, some may find this offensive, but I keep a kind of running tally in my head. I said no to this while I was doing the laundry. I said wait on that while I was taking a bath. Now I better go show DD 1 some love. And it's time the baby got a cuddle. Opps! Gotta run and cook dinner. I'll say no to letting you chop veggies. Yes to letting you help me stir the batter. No to letting you stand over the stove. Yes to letting you wash the dishes. Oh boy...time to cuddle the baby again. Serve dinner, clean up mess.....I need a break....No I'm not reading you a book right now-- you get a video, sorry. (And I'll feel guilty about that...so tomorrow they'll get 5 books read to them.) Whew.....it's exhausting, but it's how I balance things. I think it's pretty "real" if not perfect.

xoe

[tinuviel_k]

I HATE the Giving Tree book. Despise it. Loathe it. I think it is one of the worst messages I have ever read in a book geared for kids. (Can you tell I am not a fan?)

I think it is a very unhealthy message to teach children and adults: give of yourself, over and over without any regard for your own needs. Your needs are not important. Let someone else take from you, take and take until there is nothing left of you to take anymore. And then take them back again and give them the tiny scraps that are left. Aaaahhhhh! I swear, the Giving Tree is a textbook for abusive relationships.

I don't know. Does anyone know the magic formula for being neither the stump nor a cold-hearted, unloving, un-generous mother?

I've found in my life that it is very important to strike a balance in all relationships; with partners, friends, children, employers....you name it. It is a good thing to be generous, considerate, and helpful person. it is admirable to give of your time and talents. It is important to be there with time and attention to support your partner and your children. But not to the point where it depletes you, and not to the point where there is a severe imbalance.

In the story the "tree" winds up as a stump because she just doesn't know how to step up and say "I need to take care of myself right now. I love you and will always care for you, but what you want to do is hurting me and it needs to stop. So I am going to say no." The "boy" took and took from the tree because he never heard the words, "You need to think of me too, you are not the only person in the world that has desires and needs."

It is possible to be loving and caring to your family and meet their needs without being a martyr. If it doesn't come naturally then try to think of some examples where boundaries might be necessary.

Example (this is a true story):

My mom did all my laundry for me as a child. At the age of eleven she came in to pick up my hamper and noticed that I had tossed freshly washed clothes in there because I was too lazy to hang them up in the closet.

What the tree would have done: The tree would have said, "Oh, the boy is too tired to put away his clothes. I will be kind and put them away for him in addition to cleaning them." And then would have proceeded to both wash AND put away the clothes from then on.
What my mom actually did: Mom told me kindly that she didn't appreciate working hard to clean my clothes only to have me dump them in the hamper because I didn't feel like putting them away. She said that she washed six people's worth of laundry and that my actions were disrespectful and unfair to her. And then she taught me the correct way to do my own laundry and said it was my responsibility from now on, and that she would be happy to help if I had questions or needed company while washing/folding. From then on I washed and put away my own laundry and learned a good lesson on how to appreciate the help and favors of others.

[Norasmomma]

I find for me you have to have balance for what works for you. I am not constantly entertaining my DD who is almost 3, I just can't. For me to stay the least bit sane I have to have some boundaries. Now my SIL is with her kids 24/7 and gives and gives and gives some more, for me her lifestyle would drive me insane(but people know her as a great mom). She is constantly driving them to all their classes and running around. Her DH works and does his own thing much of the time, because it keeps him sane. Thing is though I have even heard her say at times she wishes she could do something for her. Why she doesn't I have no idea, maybe guilt?

Now on the flip side, DH and I are TOTAL homebodies, having a baby finally made me be the homebody DH always wanted. I love being home and can be all the time. We enjoy our time as a family being home and doing projects. DD is now at the age where she wants to help and does. I also am nesting and waiting for the arrival of our new baby. I am fine with DD staying with her grandparents for the night and she is too. WE have a different structure that works for us. Other people may think we are lame because we do spend so much time at home. They also may think I'm lame to pump milk at 2 months old, so I can leave my baby to get a massage, but you know that is what makes me not feel like the stump, so I am fine and dandy with it.

I think everyone has to find their own balance.

[limabean]

I don't like that book's message either. My mom was a great example of striking the right balance -- I hope I can do it as gracefully as she did. We kids always felt like the most important thing in her life, but not the only thing in her life, you know? She had outside interests, friends, etc., but we never felt like she was choosing them over us, just in addition to us.

And she gave us a sense of self-confidence too. I think parents who do everything for their children are sending a subtle message that the child isn't capable of doing it for him/herself, which I think is very damaging over the long term.

A good example is when I got a job at age 16 -- the first year, my mom sat down with me and helped me do my taxes; the second year, she was nearby cooking dinner while I sat at the kitchen table and did them while asking her questions whenever I needed to; and the third year, I was on my own unless I had a truly unworkable problem that I needed help with. It gave me the perfect amount of support and confidence, and now as an adult I'm not intimidated about doing stuff like that for myself -- what a gift!!

It's the whole teach-a-man-to-fish thing. That damned Giving Tree just kept giving the boy "fish" his whole life -- yuck.

[Fuamami]

I've never read "The Giving Tree", but now I'm kind of glad I have somehow missed it!

I am with the op, I have a hard time striking the right balance. AND, I know my kids pick up on that.

My mom seemed to have a good balance when we were little, but when I was in about 5th grade, she kind of had a mid-life crisis and things went downhill from there. Well, it wasn't that bad, but she did choose to do things like moving to another city and leaving me home alone for my junior year of high school, and just generally dropping out when I was a teenager.

Anyway, I prefer to spend very little time playing with my kids. I let them have lots of free time to play, and I take them everywhere with me, I read lots of books to them, and if they are around and want to help me with what I'm doing, I try to happily include them and adjust to their involvement. But I don't chauffeur them around much and I don't spend hours on floor time. I just pulled my dd out of a play that she'd auditioned for and gotten a part in when I found out there were two practices a week 45 minutes from my house from 6:30 pm to 8:00 pm.

Anyway, my point that I'm trying to get to here is that I feel like a slouch around my friends. I have a friend who probably spends 2-3 hours of floor time playing with her 3 yo. And almost all of my mommy friends IRL take their kids to tons of classes and activities, and carefully pack snacks and sunblock and water everywhere they go, and then follow them around encouraging them to hydrate themselves, and then climb up and go down the slide with them every time, etc. Then I feel pressure to do that too. I feel guilty that I let my kids run around in the chicken coop with bare feet, even though part of me thinks that's good for the immune system and what a happy childhood is all about.

[mama_mojo]

Thanks. These replies are great. The tax story and laundry story are the ones I want to move toward.

As far as reactionary parenting- I'm sure I do this to some extent, but I actually I'm more damaged in a "Don't tread on me" way from my father than from my mother's distance. So, my knee jerk reaction when I am overtaxed (not when I'm even reasonably functioning) is "back off!" That's kind of a problem as a mother.

I've actually worked on this pretty steadily for 9 years now. But, this friend of mine really gets her kids water without even the slightest hesitation. I know that sounds dumb, maybe, but I really do think (unless I'm in the kitchen), "Can you get that yourself or is someone else in the kitchen who can help you?" So I would say I actually feel guilty for maybe pushing my kids too hard to do things themselves more than I feel abused and misused. I just wonder at times if there is a dichotomy instead of a spectrum, like do I have be the stump OR the cold mother? Your replies are insightful in this regard.

I am overstating things, of course, so please allow for a bit of hyperbole. And thanks for the replies; I need to work out how I really want to be. For all her distance, my mom was actually the best at making us feel loved. My father gave us tons of attention, and really, mostly beyond the age of 6 or 7, I just wanted him to give me some freaking space. I still feel a little claustrophobic even talking on the phone with him.

I've rambled enough...

[Fuamami]

You don't say how old your kids are, so this might not work, but I was going to add that I ask my kids to do favors for me, too. Stuff other than chores that are their responsibility, stuff completely for me. Like, "While you're up, will you grab me a kleenex?" or something like that. They don't always do it, and I don't complain or nag or anything if they don't, but it does sometimes make me feel like I have more give and take.

[MacKinnon]

Originally Posted by Fuamami

Anyway, my point that I'm trying to get to here is that I feel like a slouch around my friends. I have a friend who probably spends 2-3 hours of floor time playing with her 3 yo. And almost all of my mommy friends IRL take their kids to tons of classes and activities, and carefully pack snacks and sunblock and water everywhere they go, and then follow them around encouraging them to hydrate themselves, and then climb up and go down the slide with them every time, etc. Then I feel pressure to do that too. I feel guilty that I let my kids run around in the chicken coop with bare feet, even though part of me thinks that's good for the immune system and what a happy childhood is all about.

I also feel slouchy mama-ness... I have been known to say, "I don't play with my kids." and I really don't. I WILL, but when I can spend time with them, I would prefer it was reading or cooking or digging in the garden. Not only do I not play with them, I also work out of the home. So, around my snack-packing, sunscreen-toting, playing mama friends, I feel like the slacker-mama. I was apologizing to DD's teacher for the McD's breakfast, as I shuffled them off to child care, so I could rush off to a meeting, and she reassured me it was OK, that McD's once a blue moon did not mean I loved DD less, but I felt it. I KNOW my kids love me, and I know they KNOW that I love them. We have our own balance.

I do tend toward being the "stump". I'll fetch water, pick up after them, etc. My mom and DH's mom were the same way, although in different ways, my mom let us run the roost where DH's mom was more of a martyr. In either case, we don't want to do that to our kids, but we are struggling to break the "we'll just do it for you" cycle. It's easier, frankly, at 7pm after 9 hours of work, dinner, packing for the next day, etc. to just put them to bed and clean up later.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Norasmomma

I think everyone has to find their own balance.

:

OP: I haven't read the book, but I can figure it out from thread context.

I don't have it right. I'm erring on the other side too much, especially since we lost Aaron. I went pretty far towards "stumpage" when ds1 was little (mostly because of my UAV ex). It's a very tricky tightwire act.

One thing I remember my mom doing was involving us in her stuff. She loved to garden, and spent hours and hours out there much of the year. So, she marked off a section for us kids, and helped us plant...and was available when we needed her. I didn't even realize, until years and years later, that she had all kinds of "me time" without taking anything from us in the process. I did the same thing with walks. I loved to walk in the rain, and was desperate to spend more time with ds1. Hence, our "picnics", in which we'd walk in the rain to the side of the creek, then sit in big plastic garbage bags, with umbrellas, and eat sandwiches, apples and hot chocolate together...and share a giggle over the strange looks people gave the family (my nephew often joined us) who were picnicking in a downpour. DD and ds2 sometimes join me while I practice songs for my choir (Tuesday nights all year - my main "me" time, but I'm taking next year off). I get to practice and they get to enjoy time with mom.

It doesn't always work. Sometimes, my practice gets cut short, because I can't focus. Sometimes, I really, really need to practice, and they're not in the mood. Sometimes, ds1 walked so slowly that I ended up completely frustrated. But...it all helps.

I think the biggest key is to keep an eye on the fact that they're growing. As their need for us becomes less intense and less full-time, it's important to start cultivating our other interests to a greater degree. Four years ago, I wouldn't have even considered joining a choir (too self-conscious)...and three years ago, I did it. When the kids are a bit older, I'll probably fit some private voice coaching into my schedule, as well. It gives me a chance to expand, so that when they leave, I've got other things going on.

Oh - and we're working on ways to grow together, too. My mom is pretty much fluent in Spanish (she's taught herself over the last 3-4 years). DS1 is taking Spanish in school. DD is interested, and starting to learn a few words. I'm thinking of taking a night school class in Spanish, so that we can all speak it together...works "me time" into interacting with the kids, yk?

Anyway - lots of random babble...if anything in there provides useful insight, I'm glad...if not, feel free to ignore.

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by tinuviel_k

I HATE the Giving Tree book. Despise it. Loathe it. I think it is one of the worst messages I have ever read in a book geared for kids. (Can you tell I am not a fan?)

I think it is a very unhealthy message to teach children and adults: give of yourself, over and over without any regard for your own needs. Your needs are not important. Let someone else take from you, take and take until there is nothing left of you to take anymore. And then take them back again and give them the tiny scraps that are left. Aaaahhhhh! I swear, the Giving Tree is a textbook for abusive relationships.

Amen!

OP, I think realizing you don't want to be the stump is the first step toward not ending up that way.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by tinuviel_k

I HATE the Giving Tree book. Despise it. Loathe it. I think it is one of the worst messages I have ever read in a book geared for kids. (Can you tell I am not a fan?)

I think it is a very unhealthy message to teach children and adults: give of yourself, over and over without any regard for your own needs. Your needs are not important. Let someone else take from you, take and take until there is nothing left of you to take anymore. And then take them back again and give them the tiny scraps that are left. Aaaahhhhh! I swear, the Giving Tree is a textbook for abusive relationships.

amen!!!

i don't really have anything to add. just wanted comment about how much I hate that book and the message.

[Loralz]

I liked that book until I heard the supposed backstory. Supposedly, he was upset at how a woman in his life just put herself out there for her children and they took total advantage of it. In his anger he wrote the story about the stupidity of women and it became a classic children's story.

I have NO idea if it's true or not, but I see it in the book.

[Altair]

Ha hahaha! My partner and I always argue over this book. It is one of my least favorite childrens books ever. Mother as Self Sacrificing Martyr.

My partner always thought it was such a sweet book. His mother gave it to him, who ironically, is not at all the martyr type. Far from it.

Now he always jokes with me in an old woman voice "come and sit on my stump, boy." whenever I feel touched out by baby demands and all.

[leighann79]

Originally Posted by Fuamami

You don't say how old your kids are, so this might not work, but I was going to add that I ask my kids to do favors for me, too. Stuff other than chores that are their responsibility, stuff completely for me. Like, "While you're up, will you grab me a kleenex?" or something like that. They don't always do it, and I don't complain or nag or anything if they don't, but it does sometimes make me feel like I have more give and take.

I do this too. In fact, it's rare that I get my own glass of water anymore. Since we have ice and water in the door of the fridge, even my 3 year old can fill my water cup for me.
My 10 year old has been doing her own laundry for over a year now. My 7 year old has been doing it since we got the front loaders (since about 6.5 years). My 3 year old is slowly folding and putting away more as she is able to.
It's amazing how much better I feel about doing stuff for my kids when they are able to do more for themselves.