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Logical consequences? WWYD?

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 
Ok, if you read my other thread, you know I am new to GD. We are doing pretty well (still working on it), but I don't know what to do about these two issues.

1. Bedtime-DS1(6) and DS2(3) will not stay in bed.

DS1 is in kindergarten, and has to be up and dressed by 7:10 each morning to catch the bus for school, and DH has to leave at 5:30am for work, so he HAS to have a bedtime. No just waiting around until he's ready to go on his own.

We have co-slept off and on with them since birth, but our queen sized bed is getting smaller and smaller as they get bigger and bigger!! We also have a DD(2.5months), who sleeps in a bassinet/playpen beside our bed. I would LOVE DS1 to sleep in his own bed, but even if we get him to fall asleep in his room, he will wake up in middle of the night and come to our bed.

For DS2, we tried letting him stay up "until he got tired" (which means he is about to pass out and very whiny), but that was just a frustrating experience. He was still running around trying to play, as he is a high energy boy, and DS1 kept getting up to see what was going on and wondering why he had to go to bed, and DS2 got to stay up.

The boys do share a bedroom, so they aren't all alone at night, and we even got them the bunk beds they wanted in their room. Now, they won't even sleep in them!

I would really like to at least have DS1 sleeping in his bed and not getting up for hours (usually two hours after bedtime is usually when he will fall asleep), and have DS2 sleeping at bedtime (in our bed or his).

I do love co-sleeping, but there just isn't enough room in our bed, and a King size would fit in our room! (we live in a small house). I do have an extra toddler bed that I thought about putting in the corner of our room for them to sleep on. What do you think??


2. Yelling/back-talking-DS1 is very bad about this. I am using back talking to mean this:
After I ask/tell him to do something or tell him no he starts screaming at me. He will say Stop making me cry! or Gosh, you are so mean!! His first reaction to anything not going his way is screaming, then yelling something about how everything or everybody wants to make him mad or make him cry or hurt him. I am planning to make him a MAD pillow that he can take his aggression out on, but I'm not sure that will help with the screaming.

Ex. When DS1 got home from school he wanted a snack. I made him some popcorn, he ate it, then asked for some frozen blueberries. I gave him some and he ate that. Went outside to play. I started dinner. He comes in about 15 minutes before dinner is ready. He asks for some more blueberries. I said to him that I am making dinner and it will be ready in a few minutes, so no more snacks. He loses it! It's like he thought it was the end of the world. Screaming and crying that he is starving! I told him he needs to cool down, so he goes to his room.

WWYD???

Lydia
post #2 of 10
Bedtime: I would set a bedtime, let the kids know what it is. Have some sort of regular bedtime routine so that they know the drill. Then if they get out of bed, the first time you tell them that they have to go to bed now and walk them back. After that, just silently return them to bed and leave. If they're keeping each other up because they're sharing a room, maybe you need to separate them for a while.

Also, try to make the hour or so leading up to bedtime relaxing and calm (as calm as anything with three kids can be).

At our house, around 8:00 we have all the kids use the bathroom and brush their teeth. Then they head to the couch for a story and prayers. Then the middle two go lay down and ds1 stays up to read. Ds3, aho's 1 year old, I still nurse to sleep.

Yelling: Say it with me "You're in charge of your own feelings. I'm not making you cry. If you need to cry, you can."

Try another one "You must be frustrated if you're saying I'm mean. What are you frustrated about? What's a better way for you to say that?"

Snacks: I would recommend giving him something with protein in it after school to hold him over till dinner. Cheese, peanut butter, etc. Popcorn is tasty, but digests quickly.
post #3 of 10
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by phathui5 View Post

Yelling: Say it with me "You're in charge of your own feelings. I'm not making you cry. If you need to cry, you can."


Snacks: I would recommend giving him something with protein in it after school to hold him over till dinner. Cheese, peanut butter, etc. Popcorn is tasty, but digests quickly.
He was getting ready for bed, and decided that he wanted to play a game of Go Fish with DH. They finished the game, and he went to bed. He came back out and said well, who's reading my story. I told him that he played cards and it was now a few minutes past bedtime. I couldn't do it because I was feeding sister. He started the yelling end of the world crying, and asking why I was making him cry all day! I told him that I understood that he wanted a story, but it was now past bedtime because he played cards instead. I also told him that it was his choice to cry, and I wasn't doing it to him. I told him it was perfectly fine to cry when he was upset, but that again, it was his choice. We ended up talking about it for a few minutes, and came to a compromise that tonight he could have both, but from now on it was one or the other before bed.

As for the snacks, he is really picky. Some days he loves cheese, some days he hates it. Same with all things. I tried offering cheese and crackers with the fruit, but he didn't want that. His heart was set on popcorn or chips, so I went with the slightly less of two evils LOL. I'll try to sneak in some more protein.

Thanks for all your advice
Lydia
post #4 of 10
Bedtime/night time waking:

1. Start getting ready for bed BEFORE they are tired. Once they're tired, they take longer to get to sleep. I would move bedtime back 15 minutes until they're getting enough sleep, which probably means your older one needs to be in bed by 8 pm, and asleep by 9 pm, or maybe earlier.

What's your daily routine? For our kids it's: 15 minutes of chores, pajamas, snack, reading (ds needs to read for 20 minutes a night for school), toothbrushing, bedtime story, lights out. That whole routine takes about 60-75 minutes. I've just become resigned to it taking that long.

2. Check on them regularly. For our kids, when we were trying to get them to fall asleep on their own, we would set the kitchen timer for 5 minutes and then check on them. Then 10, then 15, then 20. Some days we got up to 30 or 35, but most nights they were out by 10-15. Now we go check on them (without the timer usually) after about 10-15 minutes.

3. Be really really really really boring when sending them back to bed. "I love you, good night." "I love you, good night." "I love you, good night."

4. For night waking, can you make a little nest next to one side of the bed with the toddler bed? We ran out of room for our dd when she hit 4, and finally got her to sleep in her own bed. Not 2 months later, ds started night waking because he was scared (he was 7). No way is that child and his 36 sharp elbows fitting in our bed! After about 6 weeks of ME falling asleep on his floor to try to get him to fall asleep on his own again, I realized that if someone was going to be sleeping on the floor, it should be HIM! So, now he comes into our room with his blanket and pillow and curls up next to my side of the bed. It's got to be uncomfortable, but he doesn't seem to mind.

For the snacks/backtalk:

I really like the ideas in "How to Talk So Children Will Listen" -- you can acknowledge the feeling, show them you understand, and be non-confrontational about your point.


Quote:
It's like he thought it was the end of the world. Screaming and crying that he is starving! I told him he needs to cool down, so he goes to his room.
We have this a lot with dd. Protein helps. I've started getting string cheese for her. Bananas too are good because they are more filling. And sending her to her room while I finish dinner is an option that we take a lot.

Here what I try to recognize is the underlying cause: Hunger = low reserves and low tolerance for things not going your way. That doesn't mean that dd gets to shriek like a banshee in my ear, but it does mean that I'm not going to 'punish' this behavior, merely ask her to take her volume elsewhere until it's time to eat.
post #5 of 10
If storytime is part of the bedtime routine, than I wouldn't skip it. However, if he's already getting ready for bed, that's not the time for a card game. When I start a bedtime routine with the children I'm caring for, we do the routine and go to bed. That's why it's called a routine, because you do it the same way each time. That doesn't mean that you can't deviate once in a while for something important but I would have arranged a time for them to play cards the next day and not interrupted the bedtime routine. Since you allowed him to play the game, I'd still have continued with the routine and just have read a short story. Because it's always possible to read something really short and still fulfill the expectations. That said, it sounds like spoke well given the situation and kept it cool and calm. You also talked about the problem, a solution, and what will happen next time.

Given the age difference and sleep times it might be a good idea to have bed "time" different for each child. It doesn't make sense to call it bedtime if the older one doesn't sleep for 2 hours afterwards. I would recommend doing a bedtime routine with him later on after the young one has gone to sleep. And perhaps do bedtime with the younger one alone so that you can focus on interacting with him and helping him to sleep soon. Then you can focus your energy on the older one and perhaps have a game or activity with him (like you mentioned above) that he can't play with the younger one each night, special story time that's maybe more complex, etc. Make that time special once he lets you put the younger one to sleep.

ETA: You didn't say whether you told DS6 that playing cards would mean giving up his storytime. That stuff is really important to kids around that age. So I'd make sure to clarify any changes before they occur so that he can decide whether to do them or not. And if he does decide and is later upset, you can remind him that *he* made the choice of what activity to do.

ETA2: Totally agreeing with LynnS6, especially with not punishing stuff like yelling because the child is hungry and upset but dealing with it like she mentioned.
post #6 of 10
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PikkuMyy View Post
ETA: You didn't say whether you told DS6 that playing cards would mean giving up his storytime. That stuff is really important to kids around that age. So I'd make sure to clarify any changes before they occur so that he can decide whether to do them or not. And if he does decide and is later upset, you can remind him that *he* made the choice of what activity to do.

ETA2: Totally agreeing with LynnS6, especially with not punishing stuff like yelling because the child is hungry and upset but dealing with it like she mentioned.
I didn't, that is why DH went ahead and read the story. I will keep the routine the same, and add in the card game earlier in the evening.

I told him that it is ok to cry, but we need to use our inside voices, or he can go to his room until he calms down enough to not disturb the rest of the house.

Thanks!!
Lydia
post #7 of 10
1. Bedtime-
I think putting a bed in your room is a great idea, well because that's what we did! My dd is simply afraid to be by herself and night and often thanks us for sharing our room. For her, her eyes have really opened up to the dangers in the real world and she worries about things. She simply feels safe, and of course she loves to be near us.

2. talking back/yelling-
we get a fair amount of that is our house. Talking back and yelling is not an offense in itself in our home, but we have taught her that it simply doesn't work very well to treat us badly and then expect us to jump to her request! Some meltdowns are simply too far gone to talk your way through them, so we let them happen, and try to be sympathetic to her feelings. Other times, we try things like do-overs. "Would you like a do-over, maybe you could think of a better way of asking " I also change the subject sometimes, it's just a distraction, but it seems to works sometimes.

In your example about snacks, I would have just given him another healthy snack. Something quick- yogurt tube, carrot stick, raisons, nuts. I figure as long as they are eating healthy, it's no big deal if it not the actual meal. Often times I will put a plate of appetizers on the counter for the family while I'm cooking.
Does he like to help? Maybe ask him to stir or chop. Mine likes to help, and she loves to taste along the way.
post #8 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by lydiaharper View Post
I didn't, that is why DH went ahead and read the story. I will keep the routine the same, and add in the card game earlier in the evening.

I told him that it is ok to cry, but we need to use our inside voices, or he can go to his room until he calms down enough to not disturb the rest of the house.

Thanks!!
Lydia
Both make sense. It sounds like you are doing great with it!
post #9 of 10
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseValleyGirl View Post
Does he like to help? Maybe ask him to stir or chop. Mine likes to help, and she loves to taste along the way.
He does like to do things in the kitchen. I think I am going to get him a step stool, so he can better reach the counters. PLus, I'll get some help!

Lydia
post #10 of 10
What time do you put him in bed now? try earlier
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