twins to be circ'd

[mama24-7]

I need ideas for a response & what to include when I do.

A family member is having twin boys (I was so hoping for girls) & when I asked “What information have the doctors shared w/ you on circumcision? Have you found any of the movies out there in your research on it?” The response I got was “dh & I will be having both boys circ’d & we’ve talked to the drs. about it.”

This is a person who researches nothing but relies on the info that is gotten from the drs. & friends. I want to respond by not using “you” so that it’s not like I’m directing things right at her or accusing her. I plan to say something along the lines of “if it were girls, would they be circ’d? If not, why boys? And then based on info I got from talking w/ someone from nocirc, I would tell her about all the things they actually do to babies when they’re circ’d.

So, what would you say, add, delete, include? I’d like to include a graphic video of a circ. I’ve got links from MDC on that, but have never watched them for fear of not being able to sleep. Which would you recommend?

TIA,
Sus

[lawmama1984]

Hi! Kudos to you for trying to share information. I, for one, have a personal letter from my OB stating that he refuses to circ and the reasons why. This is a powerful piece of information to get from a doctor (especially an American doctor, when so many don't try to convince parents not to circ).

Did your family member say her doctors were OK with it or didn't give any info on the risks vs the benefits? There are some very good resources on the stickies on here with pamphlets, websites, etc. that may help her out.

If you would like me to email the statement I received from my OB, please PM me your email address and I will send it to you. It is in a PDF format.

[pdx.mothernurture]

I think I'd share this story...

http://www.infocirc.org/rollston.htm

[dancindoula]

Just off the top of my head, if they are saying that their doctor (OB or Ped?) wanted them to circ I would probably respond in a rather shocked voice (as I actually HAVE done) "Wow! I'm shocked to hear your OB/Ped is so behind the times in his research!!! It's really concerning to think he isn't aware of the stance his OWN licensing board has taken on the subject - namely that it isn't medically necessary at all. If it were me, I'd be looking for another doctor before he finished his sentence!"

Often just the pure shock that the doc is not up to speed on what ought to be common knowledge nudges the door open for people to listen to more information. Pass them info from Doctors Opposing Circumcision and see if that helps them see that "my doctor says...." is just not a good way to make a decision.

[mama24-7]

Thanks for all the ideas.

I did contact the nocircpa person & got suggestions from them. Someone asked which dr. said what. I don't know. What I quoted in my OP is what she said in response to my questions.

I think I'm going to balance the shock of having a dr. not warn them against in combined w/ info on what actually happens during one (as much as I know, since I haven't watched the videos & I can't find my Mothering that has the pictures & description of a circ in it ). I'm also going to mention that there is no medical association that recommends it & it being a human rights violation.

Thanks. I plan to write back today/tonight. I'm not too optimistic though. She's the kind of person who might not research or read anything I send because it comes from me & only b/c of that. We're supposed to get together soon. If she reacts the way I expect, I'm going to tell her I am not going to b/c I don't hang around w/ people who do such things w/o any research. It may seem childish, but I really don't want to be around her & since I don't have to (as in it's not a family thing that we'll both happen to be at), I'm not going to.

Sus

[Night_Nurse]

Maybe you should still get together with her and have a pleasant visit without bringing the subject up. Then at the end of the visit maybe hand her a small baby gift with a few printouts on circ. (maybe even one that mentions complication rates). And then just say how you enjoyed the visit and know she wants to circ but hope she'll read the info you brought. Then tell her you won't bring it up again and don't. You can only lead a horse to water you know...

Maybe some of these links will be helpful:

http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/9985.html

http://oknocirc.blogspot.com/

http://www.homiegfunk.com/RIC2.htm

http://intactamerica.org/what-is-circumcision/

http://www.circumstitions.com/reasonsnotto.html

http://udonet.com/circumcision/index.html

IMO, it's better to do something even if they don't read it/accept it than to do nothing. I'd try one more time in a brief, non-threatening way to her and then just drop the subject.

[vegasgrl]

Originally Posted by dancindoula

Just off the top of my head, if they are saying that their doctor (OB or Ped?) wanted them to circ I would probably respond in a rather shocked voice (as I actually HAVE done) "Wow! I'm shocked to hear your OB/Ped is so behind the times in his research!!! It's really concerning to think he isn't aware of the stance his OWN licensing board has taken on the subject - namely that it isn't medically necessary at all. If it were me, I'd be looking for another doctor before he finished his sentence!"

I personally think this is (rather coyly) genius. Any other way of approaching it will likely lead to closed ears and the loss of friendship, sadly. But this way it's like "SERIOUSLY? He SERIOUSLY still recommends circ?" Makes 'em think without driving such a wedge between the two of you.

No one likes to be told "how to parent." About anything. This is pretty much the only way I can see getting someone to think without saying THEY'RE wrong; it's the doctor! Genius.

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by vegasgrl

I personally think this is (rather coyly) genius. Any other way of approaching it will likely lead to closed ears and the loss of friendship, sadly. But this way it's like "SERIOUSLY? He SERIOUSLY still recommends circ?" Makes 'em think without driving such a wedge between the two of you.

No one likes to be told "how to parent." About anything. This is pretty much the only way I can see getting someone to think without saying THEY'RE wrong; it's the doctor! Genius.

I agree w/ most people that this would probably work. But she has shown in her correspondence w/ me about other things relating to her pregnancy & about her upcoming birth that she is very confident in her doctors & I think that calling them into question (which I already have about the birth although not as blatantly) would drive her away further.

This is a very difficult situation for me. I don't respect this person at all b/c of all the interactions we've had over the years on getting pregnant/parenting/etc. already. She told my dh that she believes the only reason why we don't do Santa is "anything to be different." She doesn't respect us or our parenting at all & has made many comments in addition to the above over the years (keep in mind, this will be her first round at parenting, so there may be a little hope). I'm really worried about these babies & the circ'ing is just the beginning.

Thanks though for the suggestion of meeting her anyway. I probably will, weather permitting (we'll be outside). I have her pre-baby gift (not going to the shower, thankfully) that I plan to give her w/ lots of articles, that I'm sure will just be wasted & thrown in the trash.

Sus

[mama24-7]

OMG - I'm watching the Penn & Teller bit on circ right now. I've never watched any of the circ videos that show it actually happening. It's making me sick to my stomach. How can people do that to their kids let alone "professionals" perform these daily. I'm beyond appalled & feel like throwing up.

Sus

[eepster]

I tend to believe there is no onesize fits all approach to this. In this case she sounds especially dificult. It almost sound like she'd be more likely to reconsider if you pretended that you agreed that circ is a good idea.

[tutucrazy]

Originally Posted by dancindoula

Just off the top of my head, if they are saying that their doctor (OB or Ped?) wanted them to circ I would probably respond in a rather shocked voice (as I actually HAVE done) "Wow! I'm shocked to hear your OB/Ped is so behind the times in his research!!! It's really concerning to think he isn't aware of the stance his OWN licensing board has taken on the subject - namely that it isn't medically necessary at all. If it were me, I'd be looking for another doctor before he finished his sentence!"

Often just the pure shock that the doc is not up to speed on what ought to be common knowledge nudges the door open for people to listen to more information. Pass them info from Doctors Opposing Circumcision and see if that helps them see that "my doctor says...." is just not a good way to make a decision.

I LOVE this! Note to self: use this more often, haha.

[1littlebit]

Originally Posted by eepster

I tend to believe there is no onesize fits all approach to this. In this case she sounds especially dificult. It almost sound like she'd be more likely to reconsider if you pretended that you agreed that circ is a good idea.

: i asked my aunt once and she said yup we did research and we chose to circ.. i find it hard to believe that anyone can do research and still circ unless you had no intention of not circing yk? sounds to me like she just said they talked to the docs to give her some authority. btw they "omg i cant believe your dr would say that" thing has worked for me in the past.. i use that all the time.

[mama24-7]

After listening to dh last night go on about me trying to change people & that it's not going to happen, I've decided to plead for her to look into it more, from one mother-to-be to another. She doesn't like me or respect me a bit & I'm okay w/ that. I asked her to pretend she does long enough to look into it more.

I am sad & I don't think it's going to do any good. And, part of me just doesn't want to think about it ever again (pregnancy hormones I'm sure), but I just couldn't live w/myself if I didn't try. I realize it's not likely to do a damn bit of good.

Thanks for all the support & info. At least I know I can come here &

Sus

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by mama24-7

Thanks for all the ideas.

I did contact the nocircpa person & got suggestions from them. Someone asked which dr. said what. I don't know. What I quoted in my OP is what she said in response to my questions.

I think I'm going to balance the shock of having a dr. not warn them against in combined w/ info on what actually happens during one (as much as I know, since I haven't watched the videos & I can't find my Mothering that has the pictures & description of a circ in it ). I'm also going to mention that there is no medical association that recommends it & it being a human rights violation.

Thanks. I plan to write back today/tonight. I'm not too optimistic though. She's the kind of person who might not research or read anything I send because it comes from me & only b/c of that. We're supposed to get together soon. If she reacts the way I expect, I'm going to tell her I am not going to b/c I don't hang around w/ people who do such things w/o any research. It may seem childish, but I really don't want to be around her & since I don't have to (as in it's not a family thing that we'll both happen to be at), I'm not going to.

Sus

There is a PDF version of that article floating around here somewhere, perhaps you could mail her that. Does anyone have the link?

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler

There is a PDF version of that article floating around here somewhere, perhaps you could mail her that. Does anyone have the link?

I may see her Friday, so if someone posts it, I might give it to her along w/ other articles (that may just be trashed, but I'll include them anyway).

Sus

[jessjgh1]

Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler

There is a PDF version of that article floating around here somewhere, perhaps you could mail her that. Does anyone have the link?

If it is one within the last 1 -2 years I can probably email it to you... does anyone know what issue specifically (that would really help)? I don't really remember a visual that would really be that powerful from the magazine, helpful from a descriptive perspective, but the visual that I seem to remember was quite 'tame'. Hand drawn graphics just don't really illustrate what goes on very well.

I find the Stanford site more dramatic/graphic/disgusting (warning, links to picture immediately after circumcision)
http://newborns.stanford.edu/Circumcision.html (general site, no photos but a picture of a clamp)
http://newborns.stanford.edu/CircumcisionBasics.html (before and after photos--- graphic)
and the videos are intended for teaching purposes.

Jessica

[Full Heart]

I think I would just say something about how difficult its going to be to care for twins I couldn't imagine adding on top of that circ care! Honestly that was the first thing that came to mind while I am naking my 5 day old ds. Its hard enough without the extra work circ creates. And 2 boys on top of that? Ugh.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by jessjgh1

If it is one within the last 1 -2 years I can probably email it to you... does anyone know what issue specifically (that would really help)? I don't really remember a visual that would really be that powerful from the magazine, helpful from a descriptive perspective, but the visual that I seem to remember was quite 'tame'. Hand drawn graphics just don't really illustrate what goes on very well.

I find the Stanford site more dramatic/graphic/disgusting (warning, links to picture immediately after circumcision)
http://newborns.stanford.edu/Circumcision.html (general site, no photos but a picture of a clamp)
http://newborns.stanford.edu/CircumcisionBasics.html (before and after photos--- graphic)
and the videos are intended for teaching purposes.

Jessica

Thanks Jessica, but I don't need it the OP needs it. And here it is.

[lovebug]

i have not read all the posts just wanted to be upfront ...

as someone who took a little bit longer to jump on the no circ topic. i would say... be careful on the comparing the girls to boys part. the reason i say this because it was very very hard for me to grasp this idea because for me "you do not circ girls' now i know why the comparison is made, but it is hard for someone who is mainstream to grasp the idea...

just my 2 cents...

[emma1325]

I think that mentioning that circ rates have been dropping dramatically in the US and has gone from over 90% to 50% is very powerful. Also, the fact that the AAP no longer recommends routine circumcision.