Touchy subject for some...

[kayla.blair]

I will admit, if my husband wasnt intact, my son probably wouldnt be right now either. I was young and just decided that he would look like his father, intact.

After joining this board for potty training help, I seen the "The case against circumcision" and began reading and thanking the heavens that we didnt circ our son. Ive done a lot of research and I think its an absolutely unneeded surgery that is so hard to watch (and most parents dont, right? So if they did, i guarantee less would do them!)

anyways, to my point:

My bff is preggo right now and gets an ultrasound to find the sex out in June. She has one girl, and their hoping for a boy next.


I printed out some pamphlets and began to talk to her about it, and she wouldnt let me talk. She automatically said that they are going to circumcise. I asked what her reason was (i believe that if its something your family agrees on, and RESEARCHEs, ect.. then I guess its the best decision for your family (although i still couldnt see a parent standing by watching with no feelings of "omg, how could i")) Her reason was "Because thats my preference.". She said that same sentence about 3 other times, and i KNEW she was aggravated, so i walked away.

It hurt me that she was getting upset about just TALKING about doing research on it, and she ended up leaving.

I said i was sorry today, for bringing it up, just to keep my relationship with her (shes a very good friend, and the only military one i have). But i cant stop thinking about it. I wish i could spam her or something but she would blow them off, and then blow me off im sure. (they were THAT offended that i brought it up).

Do i just forget about it? Have you been through this? I just KNOW if she did some research, that she would make a better decision.

(she knows nothing about the practice, just said its her preference. I know she knows nothing, bc i asked if she knew how the precedure went, and she said "yeah, little scissors"... so....um, yeah.)

So, please. give me your personal experience with this, or some help on how to forget about it.... =(

[robertandenith]

when my 'best' friend told me she circ'ed her son despite all the info I gave her, I totally lost respect towards her. I just decided she wasn't good enough human being to care for her own son because she wanted to cut her son 'just in case. When I told her why I distanced myself from her, she went off on me and cut me off. I was just being sincere and i wasn't going to be a hipocrite. I was planning to eventually talk to her but I needed some space, but she felt the need to insult me and to cut me off so I let it be that way because honestly, I would have never want to see her son w/o nappies.

I have several friends that have cut their sons BEFORE I was an intactivist, and they know my stance NOW regarding this issue. I will never hold that against them because they just didn't know any better and/or I wasnt there to provide info. In fact, my best friend from childhood has two circ'ed kids and we talk all the time through skype, I do feel bad for her kids and I wished I was there to help But someone that is avoiding the info or just ignores it, I would just let them walk away.

Though, this is my opinion.

[lawmama1984]

Hi. I have heard many mothers say that they choose to circ because it is THEIR (the mother's or father's) personal preference. I think you will find that much of the focus of intactivists is that the preference belongs to the son (the one who owns the genitals).

I have friends who I KNOW would have circ'd if they had a boy before I had my son and left him intact. I am now a proud intactivist and use every opportunity to educate them (and any others I can) about leaving their children intact. I can honestly say that like PP, if my friends subsequently had a boy and chose to circ, I would lose a lot of respect for them. There is a saying on these boards that when you know better, you do better. I can understand (I still don't think it's right), people just being misinformed or uninformed on this topic, since that is where I was while pregnant, and I, in fact, thought I would circ. It is sad that so many people don't do their own independent research on the topic. I think, when you look at unbiased information, the only right and ethical choice is to leave your child intact.

Anyway I suspect I am preaching to the choir here I would suggest continuing to attempt to educate your friends. I think you mentioned they didn't know the sex yet (?) If so, it may be a moot point, but you never know if they will have a boy in the future. If you value this friendship I think you have to weigh the potential of alienating them by presenting accurate information which may convince them to leave their son intact vs. how you would feel continuing to be friends with them if they circ'd. I know some people on these boards could not continue to remain a friendship with someone who chose to circ after being presented with the appropriate information. Others try their hardest, but won't sacrifice the friendship. In the end, it's up to you, but I think you will feel better if you feel like you did everything you could to protect their DS (if any, or any future DSs). HTH and :

ETA: I don't think it's appropriate to say "I guess if you research, etc. and still decide to circ, it is the best decision for your family." I am not trying to rag on you, just to stress the importance of this issue. Circumcision is a human rights violation. It is NEVER the right choice (absent the very rare exceptions such as frostbite, gangrene, etc) for a family to make. I think your position will be more respected (by your BFF) if you realize there is no waffling or ifs, ands, or buts, about this issue. Please don't think I am trying to be harsh. I know how hard it is to confront someone you are so close to on this issue and I am just trying to help

[kayla.blair]

Oh i dont think your being harsh, I just KNOW its not my decision to make and I guess thats my cover up? If that makes sense? (I was a surrogate, and for some, me saying "no matter what happens, its the parents choice- for what happens with the baby, (unless i was in danger)- as in, abortion or whatever... its not my baby, not my decision, type of thinking)... if that makes any sense...haha


She is a good friend, and I would not hate her for choosing to circumcise IF SHE DID RESEARCH, but she was acting like there was no point to DO the research. So, I feel like I need to try again, I just dont know how to go about it, or how to say something about it?

She (and her husband- i had my husband ask) was OFFENDED by me even bringing it up... i dont understand that at all!! How can you be OFFENDED about someone trying to share useful information? Shes not Jewish (and although i guess I read that that doesnt matter anymore anyways), or any type of religion... shes just stubborn. To put it nicely, shes the type of person, who always has to find out herself... and once shes proved wrong, she then says "oh, i should have listened"


I DONT want to lose this friend, I just want her to at least do some research, so how do i go about bringing this up again? Without it ending in a mess again (we were both crying for the rest of the night).

[lawmama1984]

Thank you for taking my post in the spirit in which it was intended. for that

I think you will find that many on these boards are intactivists. That means we do not believe it is a parent's choice to make for their child. In that sense, I think you will get a lot of responses that emphasize the fact that it should be a child's choice, not the parent's, whether to keep their foreskin.

Circumcision is a very emotionally charged issue. I am sorry that both you and your friend were left in tears. But this a very important issue that has the potential to change and shape a child's life, so I think it is important to present the information.

What kind of a thinker is your friend? Is she more influenced by emotional or logical arguments? Perhaps if you figure this out, you can decide what your best plan of action is. I think (besides getting information from my doctors and doulas), watching an actual circumcision on youtube really helped to sway me. Ignorance is bliss. Many do not know what an actual circ entails. They think it is just a "snip." It is so much more....more trauma to the genitals, more traumatizing to the child, etc. Perhaps if you can get her to watch these videos, that may help to sway her. Or, if she likes to read, and just chooses not to research, you can give her pamphlets or print outs from the internet (if you think she will read them).

I am surprised that she knows your DS is intact and still wants to circ her own boy, if she has one. Do you know her reasoning? Is she concerned about cleanliness, hygiene, future problems, etc? If so, I am surprised that she doesn't see that your DS and DH have had none of these issues. I assume she knows that your DS and DH are intact. If so, just bringing to her attention that you have had no issues with either one of them may help open her eyes. Is it a traditional or cultural consideration? If so, pointing out to her that circ rates in the US are about 57% now may help.

Anyway, I hope someone who has been an intactivist longer than myself (I am going on a year now ) may have some more advice for you. Stay strong and know that you are doing the best you can.

[Papai]

Kayla, judging by her extremely harsh and stern reaction it sounds like she's been approached by intactivists before. She seems really defensive....

[BamaDude]

Originally Posted by Papai

Kayla, judging by her extremely harsh and stern reaction it sounds like she's been approached by intactivists before. She seems really defensive....

:
I was thinking the same thing, but Papai beat me to saying it.

[hippiemommaof4]

she may just be feeling offended because she wants to believe her decision is right and she isnt doing anything wrong...people are like that. I'm not one who believes in disowning people or treating them inferior because they circumsize because it really is socities fault people feel this way towards circing. Plus they could turn it around on me and treat me the same way for being a different non cric supporter. I had my first two sons circumsized even though I didnt want to but I just wasnt strong enough to stop it and I hate it still...my newest son is intact and I stood my ground 100% thats a huge statement to people now as stupid as that sounds and I tell people I wish my other sons werent as well and I was thinking irrationally at the time. I could hate myself and everyone around me for circumsizing but I would be alone with no friends and no family. Until our society normalizes it more than just some of us advocating it...its going to be this way. You can still be friends and disagree. I'm prior military and a military wife too so I know what you are going through, I'm usually the different one in every social circle. (((hugs)))

[perspective]

Well I would start out a conversation talking about how close you were, the stuff you have done for each other over the years, how you are such a great friends because you have a strong faith in your friendship and each other. Tell her after that night you talked, you cried, and later you felt really upset that you offended her and her husband, and that was certainly not what you intended.

I would tell her as her friend you always have her back, and that the decision not to circumcise was one of the best choices you have made so far in your motherhood. Tell her your not trying to tell her what to do, or that one choice is better then another.

Tell her if she has had faith in you in the past, that she should trust you again. "I am not telling you what decision to make, just to learn more about what your planning on doing before you do it. I know me saying this might upset you but I feel if I didn't try to bring something up that I thought was important, I really wouldn't be a very good friend."

[BamaDude]

Originally Posted by perspective

Well I would start out a conversation talking about how close you were, the stuff you have done for each other over the years, how you are such a great friends because you have a strong faith in your friendship and each other. Tell her after that night you talked, you cried, and later you felt really upset that you offended her and her husband, and that was certainly not what you intended.

I would tell her as her friend you always have her back, and that the decision not to circumcise was one of the best choices you have made so far in your motherhood. Tell her your not trying to tell her what to do, or that one choice is better then another.

Tell her if she has had faith in you in the past, that she should trust you again. "I am not telling you what decision to make, just to learn more about what your planning on doing before you do it. I know me saying this might upset you but I feel if I didn't try to bring something up that I thought was important, I really wouldn't be a very good friend."

Brilliantly put, Perspective!

[kayla.blair]

Originally Posted by BamaDude

:
I was thinking the same thing, but Papai beat me to saying it.

I thought this too at first but i think its more of what hipiemammaof4 said, that she wants to believe her decision is right...

Originally Posted by hippiemommaof4

she may just be feeling offended because she wants to believe her decision is right and she isnt doing anything wrong...people are like that. I'm not one who believes in disowning people or treating them inferior because they circumsize because it really is socities fault people feel this way towards circing. Plus they could turn it around on me and treat me the same way for being a different non cric supporter. I had my first two sons circumsized even though I didnt want to but I just wasnt strong enough to stop it and I hate it still...my newest son is intact and I stood my ground 100% thats a huge statement to people now as stupid as that sounds and I tell people I wish my other sons werent as well and I was thinking irrationally at the time. I could hate myself and everyone around me for circumsizing but I would be alone with no friends and no family. Until our society normalizes it more than just some of us advocating it...its going to be this way. You can still be friends and disagree. I'm prior military and a military wife too so I know what you are going through, I'm usually the different one in every social circle. (((hugs)))

This is my thoughts exactly. Thank you!

Originally Posted by perspective

Well I would start out a conversation talking about how close you were, the stuff you have done for each other over the years, how you are such a great friends because you have a strong faith in your friendship and each other. Tell her after that night you talked, you cried, and later you felt really upset that you offended her and her husband, and that was certainly not what you intended.

I would tell her as her friend you always have her back, and that the decision not to circumcise was one of the best choices you have made so far in your motherhood. Tell her your not trying to tell her what to do, or that one choice is better then another.

Tell her if she has had faith in you in the past, that she should trust you again. "I am not telling you what decision to make, just to learn more about what your planning on doing before you do it. I know me saying this might upset you but I feel if I didn't try to bring something up that I thought was important, I really wouldn't be a very good friend."

This is a great idea. Id really have to feel her days out though b/c one days shes EXTREMELY moody (preggo... what else do you expect), and others shes totally ok with everything...

If I grow a pair myself, lol, maybe Ill do this, thank you!