You're not going to believe this...

[leila1213]

I posted a link to the radio interview with Dr. Dean Edell, and an old friend responded that circ reduces penile cancer to near zero, and reduces other infections. She felt she had her son's done "right" at 6 months, under anesthesia, by a pediatric urologist. I pointed out that mastectomies reduce breast cancer risk, and female circ reduces infections too, yada yada. Her response was that she would have a double mastectomy if her mom had breast cancer, but that at least breasts are aesthetically pleasing! She didn't think female circ was a good comparison, because there's no 'testimony' of the sensitivity of male prepuce being like females'.

GET THIS: Her DH is an INTACT urologist, and was firmly on the side of circing their son. My jaw just about fell on the floor when she told me that. What can you possibly say to that information????

I was just like okay, well, I guess he--and more importantly, you--would not agree with sexasnatureintendedit, huh??

I am in total shock.

[hakunangovi]

It's difficult to think fast enough when a bombshell like that goes off in front of you!! I think you did well considering. Will you likely get another opportunity to respond? Two things come to mind immediately. First, penile cancer is very rare, and even the Cancer Society does not advocate circumcision to prevent it - probably, too, because circumcised men are also afflicted. I think your friend's DH was probably trained to say what he did. Once, in a urologists office I saw a glossy pamphlet promoting circumcision as a preventative treatment for penile cancer. I, personaly, believe that it is one of the tools that they use to coerce parents into accepting it - easy money! The second aspect is the ethical and human rights side of things. Obviously they have not considered the fact that their son might have liked to keep his foreskin, and that they had no right to deprive him of it.

[hakunangovi]

Oh, and not trying to sound too snarky, but if her DH feels that strongly about it, WHY has he not had himself circumcised ?????

[Night_Nurse]

Originally Posted by hakunangovi

Oh, and not trying to sound too snarky, but if her DH feels that strongly about it, WHY has he not had himself circumcised ?????

My response is...it takes all kinds of people to make the world go 'round. Her DH defies all logic, imo. I don't know how he can be intact (he must obviously like it or he could perform his own circ on himself), be an educated urologist, and still circ his own son. Why did they do it at 6 months? Is it because they know circing interferes w/ breastfeeding? Or do they know it really is a painful procedure so they opted for full anesthesia? I'm guessing they know the answer is yes (at least subconsciously) which is why they did what they did when they did. Other than that, I don't know. Maybe if they didn't circ the father would feel like he was betraying his profession or maybe he has bought into the whole US medical myths of those "dirty old foreskins". It might be a real blow to the dad if the son grew up and said he liked being intact and thought it was awful that daddy would cut that body part off of people. I suspect the wife/mother had a lot to do with the decision though. It's kind of like the couple in the Penn and Teller video. Her DH was intact and obviously she liked it, so why would the mom entertain the thought of circing her child? It's mind boggling. But seriously, if the conversation comes up again, ask her when her dh will be getting circed, you know, so he can match the baby.

[tlh]

It's too late for her son but it's not too late to educate her.


Can Penile Cancer Be Prevented?


http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...evented_35.asp


Most public health researchers believe that the risk of penile cancer is low among uncircumcised men without known risk factors living in the United States. Most experts agree that circumcision should not be recommended as a way to prevent penile cancer.


Fine-Touch Pressure Thresholds in the Adult Penis


http://www.urotoday.com/42/browse_ca...ult_penis.html


This study suggests that the transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. It appears that circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.

[Fellow Traveler]

I'd ask her to reply to the American Cancer Society link just posted and mention that if her husband is so on board that he should put his penis on the block.

[dancindoula]

Tell her that if she were right then the rest of the world would be experiencing a raging pandemic of penile cancer and STDs, while the US would be a bastion of health and sexual freedom. But wait....we're not. The US has a quite high rate of STDs compared to the (intact) rest of the world and at least as high a rate of penile cancer as the (intact) rest of the world. Oh, and circumcision only prevents a man from getting penile cancer in his foreskin, it doesn't do diddly to stop him getting it anywhere else on his penis....anyway he has a higher chance of ending up with male breast cancer, so she better sign her son up for a double mastectomy, STAT. And her husband too.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by dancindoula

Oh, and circumcision only prevents a man from getting penile cancer in his foreskin, it doesn't do diddly to stop him getting it anywhere else on his penis....

I think there was a study showing that circumcised men were at a higher risk and that they are getting the cancerous cells on the scar line. Let me see if I can find that link...

[qoute]In 1993, Christopher Maden, Ph.D., et al. reported a study 29 in which 110 men with penile cancer, diagnosed from January 1979, to July, 1990, were interviewed. Of these 110 men, 22 had been circumcised at birth, 19 later in life, and 69 never. The majority of the men interviewed were intact, 37% were circumcised, and 20% had been circumcised as infants. In circumcised men, the cancer usually occurs along the line of the circumcision scar. Finland, where circumcision is extremely rare, has a low incidence of penile cancer.48[/quote]

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/maden/

[leila1213]

This just keeps getting better...

I had a reply all written out earlier today, and I have no idea what happened to it. What I was going to say is that I DID post a link to the ACS' position.

But there has been another development. I asked her why he hasn't had it done. She says he was going to, but he had to postpone do to some more urgent surgery. Then he told her he was going to have it done a few months after they started dating, and SHE told him NOOO! :

This story just keeps getting more twisted! WTF???

One reason I'm persisting is that I believe she is going to try for more kids. But really, it doesn't sound like there's much hope for them. I am more concerned about our mutual friend who is pregnant with her first, a boy. The two of them live in our hometown together, while I am like 5 states away.

[mrsfrenchy]

Originally Posted by leila1213

I had a reply all written out earlier today, and I have no idea what happened to it. What I was going to say is that I DID post a link to the ACS' position.

But there has been another development. I asked her why he hasn't had it done. She says he was going to, but he had to postpone do to some more urgent surgery. Then he told her he was going to have it done a few months after they started dating, and SHE told him NOOO! :

This story just keeps getting more twisted! WTF???

One reason I'm persisting is that I believe she is going to try for more kids. But really, it doesn't sound like there's much hope for them. I am more concerned about our mutual friend who is pregnant with her first, a boy. The two of them live in our hometown together, while I am like 5 states away.

whaaat?
"no, honey, I like your foreskin, don't cut it off! but please, I'd like to cut off part of my son's penis."

she makes absolutely no sense.

[perspective]

Originally Posted by leila1213

I had a reply all written out earlier today, and I have no idea what happened to it. What I was going to say is that I DID post a link to the ACS' position.

But there has been another development. I asked her why he hasn't had it done. She says he was going to, but he had to postpone do to some more urgent surgery. Then he told her he was going to have it done a few months after they started dating, and SHE told him NOOO! :

This story just keeps getting more twisted! WTF???

One reason I'm persisting is that I believe she is going to try for more kids. But really, it doesn't sound like there's much hope for them. I am more concerned about our mutual friend who is pregnant with her first, a boy. The two of them live in our hometown together, while I am like 5 states away.

So let me get this straight. Your friend is married to a intact urologist who things the foreskin should be removed, but through all the years in his adult life he has found the time to get himself circumcised? (Its not like he can use the excuse that he hasn't had the time to get to the doctors office!!)

And then we have a woman who wants to circumcise her son to prevent penile cancer using the logic that if her mother had breast cancer she would have a mastectomy, yet the boy's father DOESN'T HAVE PENILE CANCER in the first place!

And to top it all off she wants to remove her son's foreskin because in her eyes its not aesthetically pleasing, yet she does not want her husband to remove his foreskin because? A) she thinks it IS aesthetically pleasing or B) she enjoys the kind of sensation she gets from him during sex and wants to rob that from his son's future wife?


This couple seem, well... I will put nicely, they seem a bit confused...

This is just the kind of irrational thinking that promotes the need to ban parents from performing such cosmetic procedures on their children. Just because you are the age of an adult, does not automatically mean you have all the same logic as a fully formed adult brain.

[leila1213]

Thanks y'all, for at least allowing me a place to vent this, and also to let me know I am not nuts and this actually IS as crazy as it seems to me. Maybe just by asking all the obvious follow-up questions, I might make her think about it a little more than she had before her son's circ?? I have no idea. She hasn't answered the WHY??? of why she told her hubby not to get circ'ed. But at least if I talk to my other friend who is pregnant, and she wants to cite this couple as an example, I have a little ammo on the 'makes no F-ing sense!!!' front.

[bandgeek]

That's just all kinds of crazy.

[leila1213]

Oh, wait. I think I figured it out. She told him not get circ'ed after only a few months of dating him...BEFORE she did all the research and learned his reasons for being pro-circ.

[perspective]

Originally Posted by leila1213

Oh, wait. I think I figured it out. She told him not get circ'ed after only a few months of dating him...BEFORE she did all the research and learned his reasons for being pro-circ.

So, now she wants him to get circumcised?

My thought is she seems a little overly focused on her husbands genitals. Let him do what he wants with his own body. She has no right to control her husband, or her son's penises.

[Greg B]

Well, one thing you have to recognize is that your friend is not using all the issues in her decision making. She is missing important issues in her comparison of circ vs intact. This means she can indeed come to the conclusion that circ is a reasonable choice. We humans are good at filtering and ignoring information that does not fit our preconceived conclusions.

You friend seems to be making the following argument: Circ is a good decision because it has the advantages of 1) helping to prevent cancer, 2) reduces other infections, and 3) it removes a body part that she does not like to look at.

You have not told us if she mentioned any disadvantages in her mind. So I do not know how she weighs these advantages against the following disadvantages, but that is the key: 1) violating widely help human rights & genital integrity principles, 2) failing to consider the child's welfare and future desires first and foremost, 3) risks of complications, 4) reducing the child's future options, and 4) loss of sexual function & feelings for both the man and his partner.

To me, the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages she stated.

Regards

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

I have removed a few posts from this discusion because they were UAVs or responding to UAVs.
Per the TCAC forum guidlines:

Mothering upholds a position against routine infant circumcision. The Case Against Circumcision forum exists to give members a place to share and discuss factual information about circumcision, its effects and the care of the intact child. It is a place to advocate for the natural intact status. Discussion in support or advocacy of circumcision will not be hosted here.

And per the UA:

We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of crying it out, harsh sleep training, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations.

I also want to remind everyone of the report button. Please report a post that is a UAV and then walk away.

Do not post or start a thread to discuss member behavior or statements of members made in other threads or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Do not post to a thread to take direct issue with a member. If you feel a member has posted or behaved inappropriately in a discussion, communicate directly with the member, moderator or administrator privately and refrain from potentially defaming discussion in a thread.

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

I am closing this thread based on the new TCAC guidlines.

It is our wish that The Case Against Circumcision be an informative and welcoming space for those who are new to the subject of circumcision. This is not a space to bash others. In an effort to minimize language which might alienate those seeking information, we are cautious about using pejorative terms such as abuse, barbarism, mutilation, etc. when routinely discussing circumcision. Let the facts speak for themselves.