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The China Study vs. Weston Price - Page 2

post #21 of 68
o btw i dont think the book and the china study made the most ethical choices when it comes to interpreting the research. sort of like fallon with NT ... it was sort of based on the research but with a biased twist.
post #22 of 68
Hummingmom, thank you for your informative post. The opinion I expressed was certainly not based on a deep investigation of world diets, just tidbits I have picked up in various places, so I am not surprised to be contradicted. I did have a few questions though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingmom View Post
As it turns out, several of the healthy cultures that Price studied ate hardly any vegetables at all. This didn't just apply to those who lived in the Arctic, but to anyone who lived in places where it was hard to grow green stuff, e.g. due to rocky ground or poor soil. For instance, the Swiss mountain valley people ate mostly rye and dairy, with meat once a week, and very little in the way of vegetables. They let the cows eat the vegetation on their behalf. The Hebrideans of northern Scotland also ate minimal amounts of vegetables. They clearly got ample vitamins and minerals from their diet of seafood and oatmeal.
Hm, interesting. I always assumed that where rye would grow, so would cabbage, turnips, etc. For example the traditional Finnish diet (Finnish soil is poor and rocky as well) included lots of dairy, root veggies, cabbage, heavy on the rye/barley/oats, small fatty fish from inland lakes or the sea depending on location, some wild greens in season (like nettles), berries in season, and limited meat. Though the veggies weren't generally what we think of as veggies (mostly turnips or potatoes ) they were certainly an important part of the diet (cooked, not raw). Though living on a mountain would certainly mean limited growing space, I'm just really skeptical that there wouldn't have been at least gardens with a few hardy veggies... And feeding cows only hay all winter (as there would be no green grass then) would produce less milk, right? Though I really have no basis for my skepticism but my own assumptions, I admit.
Didn't the Scottish coastal diet include seaweed as well? That would qualify as a vegetable in my book. I have also read of nettles being important in the Scottish diet and as a source of fiber for cloth.
I do certainly believe though that wild-caught/wild-fed animal products (like game and pastured cow milk) are bound to be far more nutritious and nourishing than modern farmed meat and that it would be far easier to get a complete range of nutrients from them than conventional meat and dairy.

Quote:
Vegetables can be part of a healthy diet, but they have their share of problems, just as with other foods (fruits, grains, dairy, etc.). In general, they're not a very efficient source of nutrients; they're mostly water and cellulose. Many people have trouble with large amounts of fiber, and with natural plant toxins such as salicylates. The mineral content of vegetables also varies widely depending on the quality of the soil, even among those that are organically grown. And some, such as carrots, have been bred to have far more sugar than they used to.
As far as I have understood, veggies are important not only for their vitamin and mineral content (which, while not necessarily huge, can be enough to hold off diseases in a grain-based diet, most famously scurvy), but for their phytochemicals, which are potently anti-disease. Not that our ancestors would have known that, but when I eat vegetables I'm not just thinking of the vitamin content. Veggies also add variety to an otherwise tedious diet, and even people on subsistence diets surely appreciated a few extra tastes to round things out.
That said, as far as I have read (which is not that far as I mentioned earlier so feel free to correct me) veggies in Europe and much of Asia have generally been eaten cooked or fermented, not raw, and in China and India for example are still rarely eaten raw. This would probably help with digesting the fiber and naturally occurring toxins found in some plants. Also, veggies were seasonal just like most traditional foods, so it's not like anyone would be eating green salads or berries or whatever all year round for example.
And there are obviously cultures that eat very little to no vegetables and survive just fine, though I have always thought those were generally very far north and/or nomadic and it's difficult for me to accept that non-nomadic agrarian people wouldn't at least take advantage of wild greens and berries in season

Quote:
It really seems as if there's no one food, or even general class of foods, that's common to all healthy diets. Our bodies all have fairly similar requirements for nutrients, and each culture has found different ways of getting them from the foods that are locally available. There are many nutrients that we're aware of, and probably many more that haven't been identified yet. This is why the typical WAPF approach of "here are the rules for choosing nutrient-dense foods, now pick whatever foods you like" seems rather unwise to me.
IMO, it makes the most sense to choose one traditional way of eating (either from a specific country, or a more general category such as coastal Asian, European agrarian, hunter-gatherer, etc.), learn as much about it as you can, and then prepare most of your meals along those lines, while applying Price's guidelines for maximizing nutrient density. It doesn't necessarily have to be the diet of your own ancestors; Stefansson did well on the meat-based diet he learned from the Inuit, and, conversely, so did Native American children who were put on a "white man's diet" that was based on raw milk and whole grains. Still, there's a lot to be said for cultural connectedness.
Along those lines, I agree with the author of Full Moon Feast that it's a real shame that so many of our bodies have been thrown out of equilibrium by modern agriculture and food processing, to the point that we can no longer eat properly prepared grains as our ancestors did for thousands of years. While I used to buy into the theories about Paleolithic vs. Neolithic diets, grains and dairy being inappropriate from an "evolutionary perspective," etc., the examples given by Price seem to run against that line of thinking. Even the Celtic Hebrideans -- whose ancestors couldn't have been farming that long in the great scheme of things -- seem to have done very well on oats, as part of an unrefined and nutrient-dense diet.
I totally agree with this! And I definitely think that the most important factor in any healthy diet is the unrefined, fresh, high quality of the food chosen.
post #23 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusarctos View Post
I totally agree with this! And I definitely think that the most important factor in any healthy diet is the unrefined, fresh, high quality of the food chosen.
this!! but ill be darned if it isnt the most expensive way to eat. they really charge a lot for actual food
post #24 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusarctos View Post
Hm, interesting. I always assumed that where rye would grow, so would cabbage, turnips, etc. For example the traditional Finnish diet (Finnish soil is poor and rocky as well) included lots of dairy, root veggies, cabbage, heavy on the rye/barley/oats, small fatty fish from inland lakes or the sea depending on location, some wild greens in season (like nettles), berries in season, and limited meat. Though the veggies weren't generally what we think of as veggies (mostly turnips or potatoes ) they were certainly an important part of the diet (cooked, not raw). Though living on a mountain would certainly mean limited growing space, I'm just really skeptical that there wouldn't have been at least gardens with a few hardy veggies... And feeding cows only hay all winter (as there would be no green grass then) would produce less milk, right? Though I really have no basis for my skepticism but my own assumptions, I admit.
Didn't the Scottish coastal diet include seaweed as well? That would qualify as a vegetable in my book. I have also read of nettles being important in the Scottish diet and as a source of fiber for cloth.


As far as I have understood, veggies are important not only for their vitamin and mineral content (which, while not necessarily huge, can be enough to hold off diseases in a grain-based diet, most famously scurvy), but for their phytochemicals, which are potently anti-disease. Not that our ancestors would have known that, but when I eat vegetables I'm not just thinking of the vitamin content. Veggies also add variety to an otherwise tedious diet, and even people on subsistence diets surely appreciated a few extra tastes to round things out.
That said, as far as I have read (which is not that far as I mentioned earlier so feel free to correct me) veggies in Europe and much of Asia have generally been eaten cooked, not raw, and in China and India for example are still rarely eaten raw. This would probably help with digesting the fiber and naturally occurring toxins found in some plants. Also, veggies were seasonal just like most traditional foods, so it's not like anyone would be eating green salads or berries or whatever all year round for example.
And there are obviously cultures that eat very little to no vegetables and survive just fine, though I have always thought those were generally very far north and/or nomadic and it's difficult for me to accept that non-nomadic agrarian people wouldn't at least take advantage of wild greens and berries in season
I think greens and herbs are pretty widely eaten. Not in the quantities we might think of today, and very seasonally. Further, I think many of them were even craved... think about the coming of spring and the first green shoots. Think about the way people have looked for those shoots for millenia. Think about how poeple across the world domesticated greens - plants got domesticated not because a fully meat-eating people said "hey, lets try growing plants to eat like the antelope do!" but because people were eating them and carrying them long distances and inadvertently selecting for certain characteristics. Think of all the "weeds" in this country that are here because someone thought they were valuable enough to bring here as food -- dandelions, garlic mustard... they were "pot herbs," things to throw in the pot with your meat to make it savory and add nutrition. Look at the nutritional content of basil, which we think of as an herb, but pesto has incredible levels of nutrition. People by the sea went looking for seaweed. People in stony areas ate lichens and mosses and ferns.

I know for myself at this time of year, after a hard winter, when the first spring greens hit the farmer's market my mouth actually waters noticeably thinking about fresh asparagus, tender baby spinach, butter lettuce so crisp and yet thin that you feel it pop like a little bubble in your mouth....
post #25 of 68
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the replies mamas... esp godusjourney for the links.

I am starting to realize the core of both of these nutritional perspectives is the same foundation: WHOLE FOODS
...The rest seems less important somehow....
post #26 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by crystalsun View Post
Thanks for all the replies mamas... esp godusjourney for the links.

I am starting to realize the core of both of these nutritional perspectives is the same foundation: WHOLE FOODS
...The rest seems less important somehow....
Fat-soluble vitamins, such as Vitamin A, are found exclusively in animal fats-- they are just as important as whole foods. Non-animal sources of "vitamin A" are not really vitamin A--they are really beta carotene and you have to hope that your body can convert beta carotene into vitamin A--many people cannot make the conversion.

You can do a "whole foods" diet and be lacking in essential nutrients---like fat-soluble vitamins--if you're avoiding animal fats.
post #27 of 68
Thread Starter 
So I think my latest plan is to eat only whole foods, mostly vegan, but supplement my diet with some very select, high quality nutrient dense animal foods....

I was thinking:
fermented CLO
High vitamin butter oil
occasional local organic grassfed goat milk
occasional organic grassfed cheeses

Does this list of animal foods provide all the fat soluble vitamins (a, d, and k, right?) that my family would need?

I would love to hear any thoughts about this.
Thanks!
post #28 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by crystalsun View Post
Thanks for all the replies mamas... esp godusjourney for the links.

I am starting to realize the core of both of these nutritional perspectives is the same foundation: WHOLE FOODS
...The rest seems less important somehow....
Exactly! I replied to your thread on the Veg*n board and linked you to a discussion that was had last year about TF meeting Veg*nism. It is a great thread
post #29 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by crystalsun View Post
So I think my latest plan is to eat only whole foods, mostly vegan, but supplement my diet with some very select, high quality nutrient dense animal foods....

I was thinking:
fermented CLO
High vitamin butter oil
occasional local organic grassfed goat milk
occasional organic grassfed cheeses

Does this list of animal foods provide all the fat soluble vitamins (a, d, and k, right?) that my family would need?

I would love to hear any thoughts about this.
Thanks!
By all means, if you feel it's right for your family - you should do it; however, I think you're also missing out on some other nutrient-dense foods like liver and fish. There's a lot of value to be had in meat.

The fat soluble vitamins also include vitamin E (missing from your list above).
Liver, fresh tuna, fresh cream and butter are good sources of vitamin A. Raw seafood like mackerel, oysters and others are a really good source of vitamin D and is very hard to find in vegetable foods (mushrooms have vitamin D in very, very small quantities). Vitamin E can be found in nuts and seeds as well as salmon roe. Leafy greens - eaten with fat to make it more easily absorbed - and HVBO are good sources of vitamin K.

I read China Study right about the time I was thinking about converting from a vegan diet to a TF one, and I was VERY disappointed in it. The China Study never really addressed the native diet of the rural Chinese. It seemed to me that the only real case he was able to make was against casein--and that was the consumption of casein in relative isolation. There was no differentiation between A1 and A2 beta casein in the China Study (I realize that research on A1/A2 beta casein is relatively new so maybe that's why it was excluded). The China Study's recommendations just seemed to be extrapolated from inadequate research both clinically and anthropologically.
post #30 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbunny View Post
I think you're also missing out on some other nutrient-dense foods like liver and fish. There's a lot of value to be had in meat.

The fat soluble vitamins also include vitamin E (missing from your list above).
Liver, fresh tuna, fresh cream and butter are good sources of vitamin A. Raw seafood like mackerel, oysters and others are a really good source of vitamin D and is very hard to find in vegetable foods (mushrooms have vitamin D in very, very small quantities). Vitamin E can be found in nuts and seeds as well as salmon roe. Leafy greens - eaten with fat to make it more easily absorbed - and HVBO are good sources of vitamin K.
So, with my list I would have A, E, and K covered... what about D? You said seafood, but what about the dairy I described?
does anyone have a great list of foods and vitamin/mineral content?
post #31 of 68
fermented CLO has A, D, E & K.
post #32 of 68
I think your list in additon to your plant based diet looks fabulous. You should consider adding in fish stock as well-make miso soups and other soups-even if you just use the bonito flakes.
Also, if you ever find some eggs that look very high quality, don't pass them up!
post #33 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by leila1213 View Post
fermented CLO has A, D, E & K.
Do you know how much of each it contains? I was only able to find info on A and D, not E or K.

Moreover, I still think it's more important to eat real food and get your nutrients from food rather than relying on supplements - even whole food supplements.
post #34 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbunny View Post
Do you know how much of each it contains? I was only able to find info on A and D, not E or K.

Moreover, I still think it's more important to eat real food and get your nutrients from food rather than relying on supplements - even whole food supplements.
Good question. I'm glad you asked. I hope someone can answer it.

Isn't HVBO considered a food, not a supplement?
post #35 of 68
This doesn't have anything to do with a,d,e,k vit.
I am a vegetarian at heart but, I eat TF.
So, I have struggled with this myself and have tried to add as much essentials into my diet with out eating much meat; its just hard for me to eat meat on many levels though I do try and I know it is very good for me...and my family loves it.
I found these to be important to my diet and health.

coconut oil
coconut concentrate
Himalayan Crystal Salt (good quality salt)
soaking/sprouting nuts, seeds, grains, legumes
lots of raw milk has made a huge huge difference in our health including almost completely treating morning sickness my 3rd time pregnant
fermented cod liver oil
high vit. butter oil
fermented veggies
nutbutters
protein from homemade paneer
yes meat, fish broth and soup is a really good idea
raw cheese
yogurt
kefir
butter, can't forget about butter

We only eat meat 2 times a week or so and I have to plan this so I know that I am not eating it on a regular basis maybe as most TFers are but I feel these additions to my diet still have made a huge improvement to our families health and vitality.
post #36 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbunny View Post
Do you know how much of each it contains? I was only able to find info on A and D, not E or K.
No, I don't know. I'll see if I can find out. But, FWIW, I have heard from pretty reliable sources that you don't need to take Butter Oil (for vit K) if you use the fermented CLO.
post #37 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leila1213 View Post
No, I don't know. I'll see if I can find out. But, FWIW, I have heard from pretty reliable sources that you don't need to take Butter Oil (for vit K) if you use the fermented CLO.
i would be very interested to know.... I have read that WAP found you have to take the two together to get the real health benefit...
post #38 of 68
I've been taking CLO only and I have been feeling much much better. I can't afford butter oil so I just don't stress about it. Interestingly, I am taking the fermented CLO, so maybe I am getting some Vit K that way?
post #39 of 68
I have been meaning to ask this for some time and this thread seems as pertinent as any:

Would someone point me to some empirical evidence for the Weston/Price stuff? I'm not interested in anthropology here; I mean randomized, controlled studies that show this diet is healthy. Not trying to be snooty here, just really want to know what's the basis of the TF thing.
post #40 of 68
Price's travel was nearly 90 years ago now. There were different norms of research. He did not do any trials. There are little snapshots of evidence in studies of the need for various nutrients and support for whole foods but I don't think any study puts it all together. I agree with the previous posters too that the WAPF has exaggerated some of the findings in Price's work.

On the butter oil and Price, I don't remember him using butter oil. When he served meals to children to improve their behavior and teeth, he gave them CLO with the meal and whole wheat bread with butter.
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