Sometimes it amazes me that the human race hasn't died out already... - Page 4

[joyfulgrrrl]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

FWIW...ds1 is 16. For a lot of years, I'd have laughed - I did laugh - at the idea that it goes by so fast (and that was despite missing so much, because I was a WOHM, who desperately wanted to be a SAHM). And, now he's 16. He's got a serious girlfriend. He's talking about getting a drivers license and moving out in "a couple of years". He's an Outdoor School counselor, and goes away for 3-5 days at a time for extracurricular activities.

And...it went by so fast. I can't even begin to believe how fast.

You're so right. My eldest is 13, and I have to drag him out for walks with me and the dog so I can find out what's going on in his life. We're still incredibly close, and he does still talk to me, thank God, but we just registered him for grade 9 and I thought, "how in the hell did THAT happen?" He graduates high school in just 4 years. It blows my mind. I frequently think now, that it is only a few more years left where I get to see him all the time, hug him whenever I want, and check on him to make sure he's really asleep and not reading. Then I go and kiss him goodnight again

[foxtrot]

Riverscout, you are the only person I've "met" who feels the way I do. I hope you return to read this. Every day I think "what the hell was I thinking having a 2nd child". We were SO happy as a family of 3. And here is the worst thing. When we had DS (our first) we had already decided we only wanted one. We were only going to have one. That was the plan. And then DS wanted a sibling and I felt bad and because we are older parents (I was 36 when I had him) I felt terrible about leaving him alone in the world without a sibling. I have a sibling and I love my sister. So we thought we could do it again. I really did think I could do it again. I was excited to do it again. Until DD came along and screamed for the first 3 months and is incredibly demanding and well, it's all just too hard to describe.

I cry every day about all the things that have had to be put on the back burner for 6 year old DS because it's just too hard to do with a toddler. We could be doing "big boy" stuff and more grown up family stuff, but instead we have naps we have to be home for.

DD is so difficult that DS who is an angel has been neglected for 19 months now. Thank goodness he goes to all day kindergarten so at least he gets some interaction with friends and teachers. The first 10 months of DD's life he had to fend for himself and watched way too much tv. I still can't look back on that 10 months without feeling sick to my stomach (literally, I do feel sick to my stomach). Oh, and that was after the 9 months I was sick while I was pregnant. He watched a lot of tv that 9 months as well. I see what he has lost and it kills me. He has a mom that is so sleep deprived that I'm not as engaged with him as I want to be. I'm grumpy and yell way more that I ever did because I'm so tired. It's awful what has happened to his life.

And then people tell me "this is just a short blip in time in his life". Um, no, so far it's been 28 months of his life (9 months of me being sick and pregnant and 19 months of DD's life) which is a huge percentage of the time he's been alive. And I don't see DD sleeping any time soon so this "short blip" is going to be going on for a lot longer. Oh, and I asked him last night if he remembered life before DD and he said "no". I cried. The only mom he knows is the mom I am now. He cannot remember the happy, fun, rested, energetic, hopeful mom I used to be. All he knows is this. And that is unbearable to think about.

So you are not alone in feeling the way you do about a 2nd child. It made my life exponentially harder as a mom. And mine are widely spaced so that didn't even help things. Had I known then what I know now I would not have had DD. I love her, but... Life was good. Life was not so freaking hard. Now it is just hard, hard, hard and I don't see that changing.

[hippiemommaof4]

Originally Posted by riverscout

I know some people might think I am a terrible ungrateful wretch of a person for saying this, but I often wonder what the heck we were thinking having another child. I am a tad bit jealous of those who were self-aware enough to realize they would be better off with one. Sometimes just to rub salt in the wound, I lurk on the moms of only children thread . I know that is a little twisted and unhealthy though. Anyway, I miss our happy little family of three and a lot of the issues I have are because I feel really guilty that my very high needs baby is keeping me from being the mother I want to be to my 3 year old and honestly the mother she deserves. I've made my bed though, and I am trying hard to make the best of it. I am sure one day soon when things settle down (and I get some much needed sleep) that I will be really happy with my decision and the regrets will fade away.

Well honestly I cant imagine just having 1 child and I am person who never wanted any when I was younger. My sister has 1 and my neice is awesome. I just think it depends on the person. I'm not jealous of people with less children than me because I remember 2-3 kids as chaotic as 5...I dont remember having just 1 being that easy either though but I was also alone with her because my husband was in afghanistan and left when she was only 5 days old. Kids arent easy...the important thing to remember is that you matter too as a person. If you are giving everything you have to everyone else then there isnt any time for you, and that isn't healthy either.
Most of us with a lot of kids dont have any profound secrets, we just deal with chaos better lol

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmom

They are not worried about doing it perfectly.

My attempts to be a perfect parent are the worst thing I do to my kids. The more I get stressed out over every little mistake, error in judgment, etc., the more they suffer. I used to be able to relax more (one of my mom's friends once told me I'd be a great mom, because I didn't "sweat the small stuff"). I'm not sure where I lost it, but I need it back. It's so crucial to be able to let go of trying to/thinking I should do everything and do it well.

[RollerCoasterMama]

As much as I want a second (or third) child and I hate that we can't do it financially...I know that my life can't handle it right now. For all of the reasons you and everyone else said. If I could be SAHM, then maybe. But I'm the primary income. And even if we ever become equal partners financially, I'll always be working. So I focus on what I can deal with. We have NO support system locally.

FWIW, my mom (worked out of the home full time while raising three) told me once that going from 1-2 was a challenge since my brother and I are only 18 months apart (and he was very high needs + nocturnal!) but going from 2-3 was the biggest shock to the system. There were suddenly more kids than hands! She told me that she was at the mall shopping one day and saw a little umbrella stroller on display. She picked up my baby sister, popped her into and asked the speechless sales guy how much it cost as she was buckling in the baby. He tried to say THAT one wasn't for sale, but the look that clearly said "SHUT UP I'M BUYING THIS ONE" took care of that.

Another FWIW...even Michelle Duggar struggled before she A) implmented some order and B) the kids got old enough to help out with the younger ones. I saw an interview with her once discussing how insane things were when they had the first 4 or 5 all under 5 years old I think (there were some twins in there). She realized that she needed some structure or no one would make it out alive! (Not her words of course!)

Even supermoms need time to learn the ropes!!

ps. I recently hired a godsend of a woman to do the deep cleaning every other week. Best thing ever!!!!!! We can destroy the house 2 days after she's gone, but each time I do the mad-dash to pick up before she comes, it takes less time. She even organized my pantry last time!!!! Just having that one thing I don't have to feel guilty about is worth every penny!!

[berry987]

Oh I hear you. I have rough days, better days, and a spattering of great days. But just about every day I take a deep breath and think "here goes" as I get out of bed.

Sleep makes a HUGE difference. My kids all sleep through the night (even the 4 month old) most nights (save for the occasional illness or bad dream). And I do not do anything besides raise my kids (and clean the house, make meals, etc). I don't work outside the home, I don't organize food drives or fundraisers, I don't knit or sew clothes or can my own vegetables. I'd love to do all those things one day, but they are just not possible for me at this point if I want to have the energy for my kids.

I think the isolation and demands of modern parenthood make it even harder. Occasionally I think about all my friends from high school and college who are spread out across the country who are all doing the same thing as me, day in and day out. Just far away. Dealing with vomit and tantrums and boredom all at the same moments. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all gather in the same places, while our kids nap or play to make dinner or sew clothes or whatever?

[Devaskyla]

I know some people might think I am a terrible ungrateful wretch of a person for saying this, but I often wonder what the heck we were thinking having another child. I am a tad bit jealous of those who were self-aware enough to realize they would be better off with one.

At least once a week when I was pregnant with my second & third, I wondrerd what the heck I was thinking having another baby. IMO, I'm a horrible mother. Between introversion, dislike of being outside, & depression, I find myself not doing nearly as much with my kids as I'd like. Atm, the older two are playing a computer game together (and arguing a bit), the baby is asleep on my back where I put him so I could get 2 days worth of dishes & 2 weeks worth or laundry done, & I'm sitting here using the computer instead of dragging my older kids off the computer for a walk or to learn to ride bikes or something. This is pretty much the way most of our days go. I like to think that when we get a car and more money, that I'd take them more places, but I think the long bus trip & cost of things are just excuses.

And seeing all typed out, I wonder what kind of special insanity I have that is making me try to convince dh that we should have "just one more" in a couple years; that makes me literally tear up at the thought of never having another baby. I think the insanity is that I love babies & now I've figured out what I'm doing (sorry, ds1!) I'm a great mom...for a baby.

[riverscout]

Originally Posted by Devaskyla

At least once a week when I was pregnant with my second & third, I wondrerd what the heck I was thinking having another baby. IMO, I'm a horrible mother. Between introversion, dislike of being outside, & depression, I find myself not doing nearly as much with my kids as I'd like. Atm, the older two are playing a computer game together (and arguing a bit), the baby is asleep on my back where I put him so I could get 2 days worth of dishes & 2 weeks worth or laundry done, & I'm sitting here using the computer instead of dragging my older kids off the computer for a walk or to learn to ride bikes or something. This is pretty much the way most of our days go. I like to think that when we get a car and more money, that I'd take them more places, but I think the long bus trip & cost of things are just excuses.

And seeing all typed out, I wonder what kind of special insanity I have that is making me try to convince dh that we should have "just one more" in a couple years; that makes me literally tear up at the thought of never having another baby. I think the insanity is that I love babies & now I've figured out what I'm doing (sorry, ds1!) I'm a great mom...for a baby.

How about this...you have another and keep them till they are between one or two years old and then pass them off to me, okay? If I could give birth to a 18 month old, I might have another but I could really do without the whole baby stage.

[riverscout]

Originally Posted by foxtrot

Riverscout, you are the only person I've "met" who feels the way I do. I hope you return to read this. Every day I think "what the hell was I thinking having a 2nd child". We were SO happy as a family of 3. And here is the worst thing. When we had DS (our first) we had already decided we only wanted one. We were only going to have one. That was the plan. And then DS wanted a sibling and I felt bad and because we are older parents (I was 36 when I had him) I felt terrible about leaving him alone in the world without a sibling. I have a sibling and I love my sister. So we thought we could do it again. I really did think I could do it again. I was excited to do it again. Until DD came along and screamed for the first 3 months and is incredibly demanding and well, it's all just too hard to describe.

I cry every day about all the things that have had to be put on the back burner for 6 year old DS because it's just too hard to do with a toddler. We could be doing "big boy" stuff and more grown up family stuff, but instead we have naps we have to be home for.

DD is so difficult that DS who is an angel has been neglected for 19 months now. Thank goodness he goes to all day kindergarten so at least he gets some interaction with friends and teachers. The first 10 months of DD's life he had to fend for himself and watched way too much tv. I still can't look back on that 10 months without feeling sick to my stomach (literally, I do feel sick to my stomach). Oh, and that was after the 9 months I was sick while I was pregnant. He watched a lot of tv that 9 months as well. I see what he has lost and it kills me. He has a mom that is so sleep deprived that I'm not as engaged with him as I want to be. I'm grumpy and yell way more that I ever did because I'm so tired. It's awful what has happened to his life.

And then people tell me "this is just a short blip in time in his life". Um, no, so far it's been 28 months of his life (9 months of me being sick and pregnant and 19 months of DD's life) which is a huge percentage of the time he's been alive. And I don't see DD sleeping any time soon so this "short blip" is going to be going on for a lot longer. Oh, and I asked him last night if he remembered life before DD and he said "no". I cried. The only mom he knows is the mom I am now. He cannot remember the happy, fun, rested, energetic, hopeful mom I used to be. All he knows is this. And that is unbearable to think about.

So you are not alone in feeling the way you do about a 2nd child. It made my life exponentially harder as a mom. And mine are widely spaced so that didn't even help things. Had I known then what I know now I would not have had DD. I love her, but... Life was good. Life was not so freaking hard. Now it is just hard, hard, hard and I don't see that changing.

I can so relate to everything you said here. I think this one of those things that is great to talk about online because no one would be willing to admit it in real life.

I really feel like I am cheating my daughter and kind of resentful over the time I am missing with her and what she is missing out on. She watches so much tv now it makes me want to cry. I don't know what else to do with her when I have to get the baby down for a nap or put him to bed for the night.

I am seriously considering preschool for her in the fall. Originally, we weren't going to bother because the good ones are very expensive here and I figured 13 years of school plus possibly college after that is more than enough school. But now I think she could really use it. Beats sitting around here watching tv because I am busy with the baby or just too damn tired to do anything else.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Devaskyla

At least once a week when I was pregnant with my second & third, I wondrerd what the heck I was thinking having another baby.

About a month or so ago, I ended up on a playground bench, sitting in the rain, crying and apologizing repeatedly to baby-under-construction for bringing him/her into the world with such a miserable person for a mother. I am SO tired and short-tempered and just plain sucking at almost every aspect of parenting. My kids eat pretty well, but I can't give myself many more kudos than that right now...

I'm really hoping that once I've recovered from this upcoming section, I'll find more energy...somewhere...

[Shenjall]

A to Lisa and everyone else feeling less-than-stellar. Hang in there.

[Smokering]

Boy, does this thread resonate.

DD won't be an only child, she just won't... for various reasons ranging from religion to family background I am GOING to have at LEAST one more baby (which is a far cry from the "I want a big family" I used to say). I do still want a big family... but not with me as the mother, at least not the me I am now. My perfect ideal family contains a mother who isn't horrified by the idea of another pregnancy and childbirth, for one thing; a mother who can actually keep the house consistently tidy, and garden for more than a few weeks at a time, and remember to do stuff with the baby rather than letting it fend for itself as long as it's happy.

I feel stupid complaining, because a) I only have one, b) she's not a "hard" baby with any health problems or allergies or behavioral issues, and c) my family's pretty good. Mum drives me places pretty often, rings up to say hi, babysits if we ask (all of twice so far, but still). And most of the time I actually do feel fine- but it only takes twenty minutes of DD whining or interrupting an important task to make me feel "WHY did I DO this??"

So now I spend a good deal of time gloomily contemplating the thought of doing it again. DD's newborn stage was actually manageable at the time - we took a deep breath and wanted to prove to each other that we were good parents, and just sort of dived in expecting the worst. But now she's older and I have a bit more freedom, I look back and go "Yeah, actually, that did kinda suck", and the thought of voluntarily putting myself in that position again frankly scares me. What, leaky painful breasts again when DD has just stopped breastfeeding every twelve seconds? Sleepless nights again now she's finally sleeping through the night? Letting myself in for pelvic girdle pain again while trying to chase a toddler? Aargh!

It doesn't help that I don't get babylust. Never have. I get cooey around babies and love seeing them around town, but that doesn't translate to wanting to actually have one. I wish it did! Would make things so much easier. I feel like it would be OK if I suddenly was pregnant, but the thought of deliberately doing it is just too scary - does that make any sense? I have these horrible thought that having one or two or three more babies will mean our family just gets gradually dingier and more depressed, with me snapping at DH and children squabbling on a dirty kitchen floor - you know? I think it doesn't help that in my (big) family Mum and Dad did argue a lot while I was growing up, and the house always was messy and so on.

But then, I have a great relationship with my sisters and they were the best gift my parents could have given us. So there you go. Aargh, this is hard...

[Storm Bride]

Our house was always messy, too. It makes it hard for me to keep things tidy, because the clutter seems normal to me...

[momma_unlimited]

I remember a little while after having my first, dh and I were sitting at the kitchen table and I burst into tears. He asked me why I was crying and I said "I was just thinking about having a second child- and it seems so horrible!"

Well, here I am pregnant with number three... my midwife told me at my last appointment that statistically, a woman is most likely to have a nervous breakdown after her third child. HA!

I guess what made the biggest difference for me was someone said "There is a difference between loving your children and loving motherhood". I realized I loved my kid and hated being a mother. Well, *not* being a mother wasn't an option; so I determined, no matter what, I was going to do whatever it took to love motherhood. To love my new role. Heck, I came around to love broccoli and spinach and I used to hate those!

I would say the way I changed my mindset was by being very intentional; by reading books by women who loved motherhood, by praying that God would put that love in my heart, by refusing to entertain those thoughts which would oppose my goal (not that I didn't have them, just that I refused to dwell on them at length). It worked... took maybe a year and a half.

I think having your husband and you do separate things all day, live in separate worlds (different careers or being a SAHM) has a lot to do with it. The Amish around us are so blessed that their husbands are AROUND. They work together as a team; they may have separate tasks but they are still close in proximity; dad takes the boys old enough to work with him; he's around for discipline issues so its not just mom's patience getting worn thin! I blame the industrial revolution and the mass shift of men out of the home more than my lack of having a village; so me and dh are really trying to work to reduce debt and expenses so between 4-5 years we can start our own family business that allows him the flexibility to have an equal role in time spent parenting (he is a homeopath by schooling, but in the rush to secure a house/life/etc didn't set up a practice and is working in natural product sales...). He doesn't expect me (or at this point have confidence that I will have the emotional fortitude to!) homeschool alone; he plans to be just as much of a teacher as me. Phew. Otherwise I'd send them to school for sure!

[riverscout]

Originally Posted by momma_unlimited

I remember a little while after having my first, dh and I were sitting at the kitchen table and I burst into tears. He asked me why I was crying and I said "I was just thinking about having a second child- and it seems so horrible!"

Well, here I am pregnant with number three... my midwife told me at my last appointment that statistically, a woman is most likely to have a nervous breakdown after her third child. HA!

I guess what made the biggest difference for me was someone said "There is a difference between loving your children and loving motherhood". I realized I loved my kid and hated being a mother. Well, *not* being a mother wasn't an option; so I determined, no matter what, I was going to do whatever it took to love motherhood. To love my new role. Heck, I came around to love broccoli and spinach and I used to hate those!

I would say the way I changed my mindset was by being very intentional; by reading books by women who loved motherhood, by praying that God would put that love in my heart, by refusing to entertain those thoughts which would oppose my goal (not that I didn't have them, just that I refused to dwell on them at length). It worked... took maybe a year and a half.

I think having your husband and you do separate things all day, live in separate worlds (different careers or being a SAHM) has a lot to do with it. The Amish around us are so blessed that their husbands are AROUND. They work together as a team; they may have separate tasks but they are still close in proximity; dad takes the boys old enough to work with him; he's around for discipline issues so its not just mom's patience getting worn thin! I blame the industrial revolution and the mass shift of men out of the home more than my lack of having a village; so me and dh are really trying to work to reduce debt and expenses so between 4-5 years we can start our own family business that allows him the flexibility to have an equal role in time spent parenting (he is a homeopath by schooling, but in the rush to secure a house/life/etc didn't set up a practice and is working in natural product sales...). He doesn't expect me (or at this point have confidence that I will have the emotional fortitude to!) homeschool alone; he plans to be just as much of a teacher as me. Phew. Otherwise I'd send them to school for sure!

Wow. What a coincidence. You posted a couple of the exact things that I was thinking about last night...the power of positive thinking and wishing we could live more simply and communally like the Amish. I was actually daydreaming about running off and joining them, but I don't think they take random walk-ins off the street.

Anyway, I really like the distinction you made about loving your kids but not loving motherhood. I would love to know what the books were that you read to help you out with that.

[Smokering]

momma_unlimited: Thanks for your post... can you tell me more about the concrete ways you changed your mindset? When I was really freaking out earlier in the year about the thought of baby number two (mostly due to birth trauma), I gave myself until December to not be pregnant. The idea was I'd try to spend the year adjusting to the thought of baby number two so that we could TTC in December. It was good for a while - gave me some breathing space - but well, now it's June and I'm as freaked out as ever. At the risk of giving TMI, I can't see myself forcing myself to do the deed that results in pregnancy with the deliberate intention of getting pregnant... not in a fuzzy-wuzzy way but in a "this could actually be dooming me to another pregnancy and birth" way. If that makes sense. I don't get how people do that. (DD was neither planned nor unplanned, but then I hadn't had a baby before!)

I definitely get the "loving your children" vs "loving motherhood" thing. The funny thing is, I always thought I wanted to be a mother - I would get ridiculously cooey over babies, my mother was a SAHM, I was never a career girl, motherhood was in my plans for as long as I could remember. And now, when I hear about someone being pregnant, it's a 50-50 tossup as to whether my reaction is an (inward!) cynical "Heh" mixed with faint awe at their bravery and a desire to hit them over the head with a brick, or a spontaneous "Awww, how lovely!" It's very bizarre.

I also completely agree about the husband thing. DH is just starting to do some web design on the side with the long-term goal of coming home to work. Unfortunately that means that right now he's spending even less time with us... he was working even while we were watching dinner tonight. And we've both been a bit stressed lately and short with each other and the baby - she was being pesky tonight and he got cross, which started me on a whole spiralling chain of thought about how much angrier we'd be with more babies and more mess around, and how it wasn't fair that he "got" to be cross with the baby after only a few hours when I had her all day and wasn't "allowed" to be cross with her for eight hours straight... arrgh.

Storm Bride: I hear ya. I'm still working on "seeing" the mess. I do feel vaguely irritable when things are cluttered or dirty, it just doesn't always rise to the conscious mind that I should do something about it! On the other hand, not wanting my house to end up like Mum's is good incentive.

[SweetPotato]

I totally get the idea of positive thinking to help us come to terms with the situations that we're already in, but I just felt like I couldn't read again and not just make a little note that I think that is different from using positive thinking to try to convince yourself to do something you don't want to do. If someone feels that having another child would be extremely stressful or damaging to the relationships already within the family, then I would urge them to spend equal time really looking at the benefits of raising a single child (rather than solely trying to "get over" their fears about having another- which may be legitimate) I know that once we're in, we're in it for the long haul and need to try to make peace and find happiness in whatever situation we choose. I just think that it's good for people to really think long and hard before making that decision, realizing that the only "right" choice is the one that is best for your individual family (regardless of societal expectations). I feel that each planned child should be loved and desperately wanted and anticipated with joy and hope (and, of course, the normal dose of worrying!) I would not want to go into another pregnancy without feeling that way.

[ChampagneBlossom]

I thought this many times when DS was an infant. And uh, now that he's two, I have baby fever again. I don't *logically* want to add another child to the family, but biological urges are strong.

[momma_unlimited]

Anyway, I really like the distinction you made about loving your kids but not loving motherhood. I would love to know what the books were that you read to help you out with that.

Well, I liked Nancy Campbell... however she is rather extreme and fundamentalist Christian (a quiver-full advocate). I certainly would not describe myself as quiverful, we practice NFP and I plan to take at least 4 years off after my next baby. We want a biggish family, mostly I think because we want to backlash against the extreme individualism we see in the world; we believe close relationships and family are important (though not at the risk of just popping kids out so fast you treat them like posessions or can't care for them individually...). I like Waldorf inspired books on raising children because they really give you the flavor of wonder and reverence for motherhood and early childhood... I also like Steiner philosophy on the role of the will and how to direct it so that feelings and thoughts assist rather than sabotage. On another note I really liked Spirit Babies which is written by a medium who can communicate with unborn children. It was really meaningful to me because I have felt the "presence" of my last two before they were born. Also liked Primal Mothering by Hygeia Halfmoon. I guess I like all the extreme people from both right and left; helps me determine where I feel comfortable.

I just think that it's good for people to really think long and hard before making that decision, realizing that the only "right" choice is the one that is best for your individual family (regardless of societal expectations).

I really agree with you here. I guess I just sort of know it's our destiny to have a handful of kids- when I first read the Psalm that says "your wife will be like a fruitful vine within the very center of your home, your children like olive plants all around your table" I just knew this was an image of what our life would look like. So when my feelings are in opposition to what I sense to be my true path, I try to work on bringing them into line with my soul feeling. But, I get disgusted at the people having kids just to fulfill biological urges without any committment to be true guides to their kids or grow through the inconveniences of it all; and I get equally disgusted with the full-quiverers who are miserable but believe "it's the right thing to do" and make motherhood a martyrdom. (Edit- I certainly don't think all full-quiver moms feel that way- but I've met some who do!)