It takes a village

[Bluegoat]

So many people seem to not have enough support in their parenting - and it makes family life so intolerable.

What has caused this change, and what can we do about it?

[AutumnAir]

Be here online to give support advice and hugs as needed.

I live abroad in a country where I don't speak the language well, and we have no family here, and no mama friends. Being a mom to a high needs baby who never sleeps has been incredibly hard for me.

If it weren't for MDC and a couple of other parenting sites I would have gone round the bend a long time ago! Honestly!

[Liquesce]

I really don't know. My husband and I have discussed it and if I were to have an "oops" pregnancy in the next few years we would be leaving the country again. We're not down on America or anything, but we both know we couldn't be happy trying to care for three kids so young by ourselves and we don't have access to the same kind of help here that we'd have elsewhere. It's sad to me because we want to be here for the clean air and green spaces and cultural diversity and arts culture, but for us none of that would be worth the strain that not sharing the work of family life with a bigger pool of family would create for us. I definitely miss having it all in one place.

[Softmama]

I think part of the change has been how mobile we are as a society now. I do not live near my parents, my inlaws, or my siblings, grandparents, aunts, cousins etc. So there is no built in support system. and they don't live anywhere near each other either.
I think another part of that is the general level of selfishness seems to have gone up. Even if I lived in the same state as my mother she has made it clear she will never ever help out because she has already raised her kids (I know not all moms are like that but it seems way more common now than it used to be)
What can we do: I think the best thing I have found is to search out other moms and make our own community. I move about every two years so I join official/organized mom groups to meet moms but playgroups etc work just as well.... In our moms group this year one of the members had a child become severely ill, require prolonged hospitalization followed by a stay in a physical rehab place and the moms of the group provided meals and child care for her other kids. It's a far cry from someone coming over to do your laundry on a rough day but it's at least a safety net for the big things in life.
I have also found that when I meet my neighbors and make a point of getting to know them I become less isolated as well.
My dh currently lives in another country (temporarily) and one of my neighbors comes and sits in my house some nights after my kids are asleep so I can walk the dog. Stuff like that really helps!!

I am looking forward to hearing what others have to say...

[heidirk]

well, I think I've started to change things, at least for my family.

When DS1 was a baby, I had made clear to my mom that I would need her help. She agreed, and then backed out. When I would call her for support (ds1 was very high needs, and did not sleep except in the sling or attached to a boob) she would say, "well, you know I never had help either, I did it all alone!" She'd go on to say how the doctor told her she was doing too much, and she did anyway...

Finally one day, I got tired of it, and when ds2 was brewing, I was talking to her about maybe really helping this time, and she said it again. This time I said, "And you know that was wrong, don't you?" Complete silence.

When ds2 was born, she came for days on end, stayed over, helped me, played with ds1...she had a blast! And she will never know how much of an impact it had on ds1, because after 2 years, he finally bonded with her.

So I think it started with my grandmother not helping my mom, who decided it was better for me to tough it out than to help. But I'm sure I've changed her mind now. And if I am blessed with a daughter, I will make sure I help her as much as she likes.

[smeisnotapirate]

It's interesting that there are 3 Lancaster County mamas here....

I agree that we're much more mobile - and that it's not such a great thing for family structure. My ILs are 150 miles away and my parents are 550. My ILs are the closest to us, in terms of helping out. They come when they can, but they devote a weekend to it - it's too exhausting otherwise.

I don't know what to do about it, except hang out in places like this. I crave a village to raise my children, and it's part of my motivation for moving out of the city into the country. We've already met our neighbors (nice elderly couples) and have started to get waves from passers-by. Life also moves slower out there - people are willing to come over and have a cup of tea and chat spur-of-the-moment, as well as to do you favors (in exchange for homemade chocolate chip cookies, of course!).

I'm also a huge proponent, especially here on MDC, of meeting IRL. I know heidirk IRL, and my relationship with her - though still growing - reassures me that I'm not the only person like me in Lancaster County. You can't get that online.

[Rivka5]

I think increased diversity plays a role. In a monocultural society, there is strong agreement on how children should be raised. It's easier to share the parenting load because everyone has the same social assumptions, so you know your neighbors will be okay with what you say to their kids.

Today, not only are there hugely divergent cultures with radically different social assumptions, but there is wide diversity of thought even within families. How many people on MDC would be okay with having their parents take a significant role in childrearing? We see so many posts here about grandparents not doing things "the right way."

Having the village help raise your kids means giving up some control over your kids' experiences and environment. Many, many people aren't okay with that.

[bwylde]

I'll add another NS mama here . I don't know when the village stopped functioning as my mom and MIL both point out how they NEVER had any help, how no one ever watched the kids for them or did any of the many wonderful things they do for me (although not point blank, they may as well be saying it). And their moms went on about how *they* never had any help, and great-grandmothers also complained about going it alone (one had a DH who was a sailor so gone all the time but she didn't have a community) so I wonder if it is a cultural thing. There is also a bit of the being the kind of people who wouldn't accept help if it were offered going on with both sides of the family. I feel that I am weak when they take the kids once or twice a month (it used to be more frequent but everyone is just so busy, another hit to the village). I know I need the help and want it but it isn't there and I feel bad when I can't handle it, although I shouldn't.

My two cents

[Softmama]

Originally Posted by Rivka5

Having the village help raise your kids means giving up some control over your kids' experiences and environment. Many, many people aren't okay with that.

excellent point. my mom punishes physically and my sister uses a lot of shame. I would so not be willing to expose my kids to that. So I guess living far away has some advantages

[skreader]

Originally Posted by Rivka5

Today, not only are there hugely divergent cultures with radically different social assumptions, but there is wide diversity of thought even within families. How many people on MDC would be okay with having their parents take a significant role in childrearing? We see so many posts here about grandparents not doing things "the right way."

Having the village help raise your kids means giving up some control over your kids' experiences and environment. Many, many people aren't okay with that.

Exactly. A friend and I used to joke about the "Granny police", complete strangers who would come up to tell us that our children needed hats or were not warmly dressed enough.

Their strategy worked in one way, I started at least bringing hats and sweaters to avoid such confrontations. I knew I was fully indoctrinated a few years ago when I saw a mama I didn't know on a sunny day and had the urge to tell her to put a hat on her baby. And I'm not even a granny yet.

[MamaStarbird]

For me and DH, the lack of extended family goes back to our parents' relationships with their parents. We're not at all close to our extended family because the only one of our parents who had a close, emotionally supportive, truly loving family lost her parents fairly young (MIL). All our surviving grandparents aren't really great at the concept of 'family' or 'support' so my parents and DH's parents basically cut ties and did things on their own.

So now DH and I have this sense of lack for not growing up with a big extended family network and our parents have this leftover sense of needing to go it alone, but we're all trying to maintain close-knit family connections for DD and any future kids we or our siblings might have. It's slow going but I'm hopeful.

[Mama2Jesse]

Y'know though, I don't think we have the right to expect help. Some people decide not to be hands-on grandparnts/aunts/uncles, and they have, after all, raised their kids and it's their life. If someone is that uninterested in my kid, I wouldn't want them to help anyway for fear they'd do a crappy job.

Others push it so far you want to scream. Suppose there's a happy medium in there, but I've not seen it.

I say this from the standpoint of having no one we can trust with our son and a DH who works eighty+ hours each week. We live a few hundred miles away from everyone and are toying with the idea of moving across the ocean... truly, having people feel entitled to "alone time" with my child is infuriating.

I'm not a village dweller; I'm the hermit with the big stick, lol.

[suzukiaustin]

I hope I don't get flamed for my post...it's truly sincere...

But I think our villages have been destroyed with the influence of modern technology and women moving out of the home and into the workforce (think Rosie the Riveter). I must say that I am for women's rights, rights to equal education, healthcare, equal pay when working, voting rights, but, if there is not an extenuating circumstance, a young mother should have the right to be at home with her new baby (not 3 months maternity leave...but years), a grandmother should have the right to nurture her daughter and the new grandchild, the husband should be out working (hunting), the children should be running around naked in the sun with their cousins, we should be dependent upon one another...we shouldn't carry the burden of a male when we clearly are more skilled in motherly things, like lactating. With modern technology we have slowly strayed from our natural roles in this world.

What can we do about it? Unplug from the Matrix and teach our children that we all need each other. Get back to the basics. Grow our own food. Buy food from the same farmers at farmer's markets. Teach our children to say hello to people, to call them Mr. and Mrs. Take on our natural role as nurturers. Become a domestic goddess. I really think it's up to our generation to start pushing the pendulum in the other direction. Our mothers and grandmothers (at least mine) were pushing things too far on the other side of the spectrum.

Just my opinion...

[riverscout]

Originally Posted by Mama2Jesse

Y'know though, I don't think we have the right to expect help. Some people decide not to be hands-on grandparnts/aunts/uncles, and they have, after all, raised their kids and it's their life.

Eh, they might feel that way because they raised kids in isolation too and it was miserable and they want to run as far from children as possible. It sort a viscous circle. "I did on my own now you can suck it up and do it on your own too dammit!"

Anyway, I don't think anyone is saying they have the "right to expect help" but that it would make life much more pleasant and probably more fulfilling if they had a network of family and friends to live life with, share experiences with, and raise children with. There are many cultures who still live this way and it's the way most people lived throughout human history.

[Bluegoat]

I had something of a village growing up. The street I lived on was a court, and a lot of kids lived there. There was a playground, and a field, and some woods. The kids pretty much had the run of the street, and whatever parent was there would keep an eye on the kids, and didn't feel uncomfortable stepping in if required. (Although we also had a lot more freedom than kids now.) If we went into another kid''s house, we had to call our mom, and everyone knew the rule. It was a fun place to grow up. My cousin lived across the street, so I also spent a lot of time there.

Now, not all these parents had similar parenting styles or lifestyles, but no one seemed to freak out about it (I'm sure if there had been abusive parents it would have been an issue of course.) I remember having supper at a friends house, and they had pop and grape juice for drinks, I was really shocked, and told my mom about it when I got home. But she didn't seem worried that I would be somehow undermined by this, or maybe that she would be undermined by it. It was kind of a revelation for me, that parents could do things differently (wrong, I'd have said then.)

I'm sure it was very nice for the parents.

[Igraine]

Great book that addresses these concerns. I am almost through it. It discusses how our culture has moved towards a peer oriented society and the negative influences it has on parenting our kids.

Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers
by Gordon Neufeld (Author), Gabor Mate M.D. (Author)
Key Phrases: orienting instinct, attachment conscience, peer orientation, Court the Competition, Discipline That Does Not Divide, Collecting Our Children (more...)

I would love to see this discussed on the book discussion section. I have not finished it yet. It has a lot of research and data and I am trying to take my time so I glean every morsel of knowledge out of it.

[riverscout]

Originally Posted by suzukiaustin

<snip> we should be dependent upon one another...<snip>

<snip> Unplug from the Matrix and teach our children that we all need each other.<snip>

Without touching the rest of your post , I think these are really interesting points, at least when it comes to America. American culture values and promotes independence and always has. There is this sense of pride to go it alone and be make your own way. People left their home countries and families to come here. They moved out to the frontier alone to make a life for themselves. We are built on independence. It's weak to be dependent on anyone. Trying to overcome that idea, especially now with modern technology making it even easier to be isolated..oh I mean independent , seems insurmountable sometimes, but it sure would be nice.

[ann_of_loxley]

Well...I was thinking about this the other day.

So often I hear people say things like 'Children never behaved like that when I was younger/when my children were younger' and 'what that child needs is a good spanking'...which leads people to the thought that that is why our society is so out of control - that children are no longer spanked or wacked with a poll at school...etc

But we all know thats not true...So what is...

And I thought - and I think... Its not that the majority of parting is more gentle 'these days' (well...you know...not that we dont give our kids a good spanking)...Its that we all parent so differently! It cant 'work', unless we are all on the same page (we all know that - its why its so important for both DH/DP as well as us mums to be on the same page with our own children...)... I think this is what has caused the change - the fact we all parent differently (of course parents did some things differently 'back then' but its such a huge difference these days). I think when I grew up (espeically when my DH was growing up), all parents were pretty much on the same page with the same parenting ideals. Perhaps it was when all the 'parenting gurus' and their books full of knowledge came about that parents started to think differently - some being way outside of the box and forming their own opinions on how to raise their own children that parenting practices started to vary greatly from household to household.

Its like - I dream of living in a commune, but I know I wouldnt be happy/it wouldnt be my 'ideal' commune unless we all 'parented' similarly (as my idea commune would be very family oriented). It takes a village...yes...and wouldn't that village be nice? But if 1/4th the village spanks and another 1/4th uses punishments/rewards and the other 1/4th doesn't even know they have children as they are stoned half the day... it doesnt leave much of a village left for my child. I don't have control over the 'village' that we live in and I hardly know anyone that parents similar to me - even my closest friends.

Now - DS is only 3.5 at the moment, so this is a big deal for me as he is still growing and the world around him is shaping a big part of who he is. When hes older, say like 10...and able to think for himself and speak for himself consistantly - then the parenting differences won't matter so much as DS will be able to think for himself and speak for himself and be able to step outside of the box himself.

As it is - I try and build a community around us despite these differences. I need this. I need a village. I like being able to leave my house with my doors unlocked, pop over to a neighbours just for a cup of tea and a chat, let DS play outside with the other children, work (and I am lucky here) where my DS (and future children) can come with me (I have two jobs and am about to have three - I clean the local church, I help the elderly on the weekend - cleaning and cooking and am going to be a part time after school nanny during the week!) - So I am busy and I feel I work very hard at making our own community. We have also decided to home educate and that has opened many more doors for us community wise - the home education group in our area really is like a village and they are people who parent similarly and whom I trust with DS.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

My mother has no interest in my DD. It breaks my heart. I don't know what I was really expecting form her...I mean, she was a terrible, abusive, controlling, self centered, resentful mother....but she had a major episode of depression a few years back and when she came out of it, was never mean or anything like that again. So, I thought that maybe she would be able to grandparent at least a little, even thought she is still an insanely self centered woman and her first reaction to "Momma, we're having alittle baby!" - was to say "Noooo, I'm not ready to be a grandma, oh man, this is terrible...I'm too busy to be a grandma, what is this poor kid gonna do?!" - and then ignored me for my ENTIRE pregnancy...not a word, not a phone call...OH, she did show up at my baby shower for all of 5 minutes, to drop off my smallest sister and embarras me. But yeah...she sees DD every few months, but isn't interested in being a part of her life.

On the OTHER hand.....

Is my REAL family. My inlaws. I have married into the family I wish I always had. My MIL for the past like, seven years now...has been my real mom. She loves our baby to death...she is completely like us, in terms of her feelings about natural parenting, whole foods, AP, vax, circ, etc...so, the comfort level is VERY high with her, as far as babysitting goes. My SIL and BIL LOVE our baby, too...they are so excited for our next little one. They are always begging us to bring her around...love watching her...love wearing her, everything.

Our DD loves them to pieces..she recognizes the street they live on and gets so excited when we go there...they have the perfect house for a kid, in the perfect little neighborhood...it's just, it's like a dream for me, that she gets to have the loving extended family I didn't have. These people are better than anything I could have dreamed up.

Our DREAM as a family, is to have a huge parcel of land, with a main farm house and a couple of smaller homes on it...so we can all live, work and grow together. They are true "village believers" and while it's just a few of us...it's more than I had as a kid and truly is a great start. As the other kids start getting married and our family grows...I know it will remain a close and loving one, I can't wait.

I don't know how we went so terribly wrong. I think it started with the idea that people should go off into the world, find their own place and their own life. People are so spread out now..and, it seems, so focused on creating an INDIVIDUAL life. It makes me sad. It's not supposed to be this way, families are supposed to be closer. Community is so important.

But I don't know what can really be done about it on a large scale...for my family, it's just about staying connected, staying doing projects together, etc...I don't know about our culture, though. I love America...but I despise so much of our culture these days. Evey geneation it seems, becomes more intent upon creating this indivifual life...this mememe existence. THat, of course, is a generalization....NOT everyone is like this...but our mainstream culture and it's followers...IS like this. And it scares me.

It's why we are TV haters and shunners. Because it perpetuates this corruption of the family...not all of it...but a lot of it...sends the message that this is reality, where the individual is more important than the family...that mothers are supposed to be super moms, who can "DO IT ALL!! *ding* With a smile on your face, cookies in the oven, a clean home...and a nutricious meal on the table!" It's bogus.

Parenting is not hard...parenting on your own, is hard, because it's not the way it's supposed to be done. But our culture tells us, that it IS the way, tries to make it seem like, it's not supposed to be hard this way - effortless, really. It's so bad, because there are so many mamas out there, who feel like they are "bad at it" or like, they didn't know what they were getting themselves into. "Why can't I do this? Why is this so hard? Why is everyone else so happy?" - I hate it. Poor mamas.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Double post!