please help. dh is arguing for spanking

[spipgras]

It started when I sent DH the link to "five reasons to stop saying good job" http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm just to ask him his opinion. He told me he completely disagreed with it. I told him I somewhat disagree with it. I think that I do say good job way too much and sometimes it just slips out of my mouth without evening thinking about it.
So I sent him this link this morning. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in683402.shtml He said he disagreed with everything except the part about how if you just wait the kid with eventually get it on their own.
So then I asked him what he thought about spanking and time outs. And he told me that he thought spanking was okay in some situations. I asked him what situations and he said that if the baby was lying on the floor and Ally went over and pounded on his head a bunch of times and then he put her in time out and she came out and did it again, he would probably spank her.
I told him it didnt really make since because its like saying "dont hit" as your hitting. I'm not sure yet what I would do in that situation, but I know it wouldnt happen a second time with me because I wouldnt leave the baby on the floor for it to happpen again.
Anyways im really upset now and ive been crying. He came to try to talk to me, I don't remember what he said now, but I told him that I couldn't trust him alone with her. Which is how I feel. Hes been trying to talk to me, but I'm not sure exactly what to say at the moment. He sent me some links http://parenthood.library.wisc.edu/L...Larzelere.html
http://www.apa.org/monitor/dec01/spanking.html I'm not really sure how to respond, I dont care if some study says that some kids who were ocationally spanked turned out okay. I believe spanking is wrong at all times.
Anyways, sorry this is long. Does anyone have any good links I can send back?

[mommy2abigail]

I JUST went through this with my dh. Someone (his friend) gave him a copy of To Train Up A Child by Micheal Pearl. it is AWFUL terrible terrible stuff. Anyway, he grew up being spanked and will never admit that his parents did something wrong. He is very loyal to them. Anyway, he knows how passionate I am about it, so he agrees to do it my way, so to speak. I've sent him tons of links, books, articles, ect...but he isnt into reading them. I wish I could help you more, but just wanted to let you know I've been there too.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by spipgras

I asked him what situations and he said that if the baby was lying on the floor and Ally went over and pounded on his head a bunch of times and then he put her in time out and she came out and did it again, he would probably spank her.

Ok, so now ask him: What if he spanked her, and she came back and hit the baby AGAIN? Now what? You've used time out. You've spanked. What next?

Spanking teaches that bigger people can hit little people. Do you want your dd to learn that lesson with your ds?

Sorry no links handy and I have to get back to work.

[juliav]

This one is pretty thorough and might give you some good ideas for solid arguments against spanking. I know that when I'm emotional about something I tend to do a poor job of concisely explaining myself, so for me it's helpful to "study up" and write things down.

Here's some more concrete studies about spanking and anti-social behavior.

Hope that gets you started!

[foreverinbluejeans]

There are "experts" on both sides of the spanking issue. It's no wonder you are frustrated to the point of being heartbroken.

The critical question is: Am I willing to learn how to parent without spanking?

Make a list of why not to spank, all the reasons you can think of. The only reason to spank is that it might stop bad behavior.

Share this with your husband. See what he thinks.

The next step is learning to parent without spanking and punishing.

[1littlebit]

how does hitting someone teach them not to hit? i always call spanking lazy parenting b/c instead of talking with your child and trying to explain what behavior was wrong and why you take the easy way out, hit them and hope it works. it may stop the behavior but it teaches the wrong lesson. instead of teaching why a behavior is unacceptable the child just learns not to do it b/c they will get spanked. that is assuming you are clear on why you are spanking the child.. if you are unclear about that they may become very withdrawn b/c they do not have a clear idea why they are being spanked and are afraid to do anything incase it results in a spanking. if one can explain clearly why a child is being spanked the spanking can probably be avoided all together.

[PikkuMyy]

I don't do "time out" but if I was caring for a 2 yo who was pounding on a baby's head, I would separate the two, talk to her about it, and then I'd stay right on top of the 2 yo to make sure she couldn't do it again.

If I did do a time out, when she was done with it, I would move the baby or keep the 2 yo right with me. If she did it again, it would be my fault for allowing it to happen knowing what had happened before.

Seriously. 2 yos are not in charge of their behavior and actions yet. You can say, "don't touch" and they stop touching but 5 minutes later they touch again because they forget. You have to help them remember by reminding them over and over again, demosntrating the proper behavior, and making sure they don't get a chance to do the inappropriate behavior.

I watch 2 different 24 month old boys together. One of them likes to squeeze the other one's cheeks and sometimes hit or pinch him elsewhere. He's not angry or aggressive, but he likes the way it feels and the reaction it gets. And he's overwhelmed sometimes with excitement.

So my job is to make sure he doesn't get a chance to hurt his friend. When the friend gets to his house, I spend the first hour or so right on top of them and making sure that he doesn't touch his friend - nicely or otherwise. He needs to get into the habit of not touching him if he's going to stop the behavior that hurts his friend. So I stop him from touching his friend, prevent it, and give positive reinforcement for other things like handing a toy to his friend. Then after the first hour or so, he's out of the habit of touching so I can relax and go into the other room to get something, leave them alone together for a minute or two. Occasionally it happens later but I try to stay close by to stop it, and if it happens again, it's my fault.

[Super Glue Mommy]

If it were *my* husband what *I* would do is:

1) provide him as much information as possible
2) let him know if he ever hit our children there would be a divorce. (it would be different if it was a mistake, but not if he thought his actions were okay)

now, yes, of course if we divorce he'll get partial custody and spank anyway. He's a grown man though and my respnsibility is to my children. I will make it clear that treating anyone that way is NOT okay and I could not remain in love with some one who thought hitting children was okay. And my children would grow up knowing that I did not approve of them being treated that way. The hitting may orccur either way, but I do not have to show my acceptance OR tolerance of it in any way.

i do know people who were brought up by fathers who spanked and mothers who didn't. Their line of thinking seems to be that they felt their mothers were just as responsible for letting it happen. While I might not be able to stop it I can make it clean that I do not approve of it and wish to shelter my children from it as much as possible.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by spipgras

I asked him what situations and he said that if the baby was lying on the floor and Ally went over and pounded on his head a bunch of times and then he put her in time out and she came out and did it again, he would probably spank her.

So basically he's saying that if he was too lazy to get up and be ready to move Ally away from the baby, he'd be able to get the energy to put her in time-out. And then, if he was too lazy to redirect/distract her if she went for the baby again, he'd be able to get the energy to spank her.

Why is punishing Ally more important to him than protecting the baby?

[Mama.Pajama]

Originally Posted by spipgras

I told him it didnt really make since because its like saying "dont hit" as your hitting.

This is the common sense behind the belief that spanking is counterproductive discipline- how does hitting a child teach them not to hit? It makes absolutely no sense!
I think spanking is for making parents feel better, however sick that may be.

Anyways im really upset now and ive been crying. He came to try to talk to me, I don't remember what he said now, but I told him that I couldn't trust him alone with her. Which is how I feel.

Now, I don't know about your relationship, but personally, that would be quite offensive to my husband. I wouldn't want to offend him- he's my partner in parenthood, and I do respect his feelings! But when we're discussing an extremely poignant issue such as spanking, it's easy to let things get heated, especially when you are aghast that he would be okay with "hurting" your child. In order to most effectively communicate your feelings, he needs to know that you do respect the way he feels in order for him to respect your feelings, know what I mean? It needs to be a mature, serious conversation, in which both people are open to understanding the other point of view, and that does include you.
This is what I learned in my own experience of dealing with this issue with my husband, who had the same view as your husband. My immediate reaction was over-the-top (one of anger and shock), to which he reacted with amusement that I would get so riled up over something irrelevant to the present moment. Later, that helped me to see it from his point of view- he wasn't worried about this issue at all, but since I had attacked him with an angry onslaught of "How dare you even think about hitting our precious baby?!", he was forced to defend himself! It's not a subject that he's given much thought to previously (if any thought), and you & I are dead-set against it, with a truckload of research to support our opinion!
It sounds like you have tried to educated him with the research supporting your feelings. But here is where the debate can become futile- each side of this issue is backed by research. A google-search can provide DH with justification for his view-point as easy as for yours.
This issue is a universal one, but right now, for you, it's a personal one. It needs to be treated as such. Ultimatums and threats this early in the game are going to be detrimental to your situation; unless he is literally about to spank your child, it wouldn't be appropriate to put your fists up. Ask your DH if he would be opposed to using alternatives to spanking for now and seeing how that goes. This sounds much better to him than "If you lay a hand on my baby I'm divorcing you!", wouldn't you agree?
It's a complicated situation, but you can maneuver your way through it doing the least harm possible to all.

[phathui5]

Ultimatums and threats this early in the game are going to be detrimental to your situation; unless he is literally about to spank your child, it wouldn't be appropriate to put your fists up.

I agree completely. Putting someone on the defensive isn't the way to get them to see your point of view.

[prothyraia]

I agree with what most of the pp's have said.

Remember, you don't actually need to convince him that spanking is a Very Bad Thing (although it's nice to be on the same page). You just need to convince him not to do it.

[One_Girl]

I think you should try to get him a book that advocates not spanking but also advocates having rules. Alfie Kohn is far out there for many parents. I started exploring gentle discipline after reading books by Dr. Sear's and Elizabeth Pantely and I slowly worked my way into gentler and more child appropriate beliefs as my dd aged and I found that I didn't need to be as firm as these authors suggested being. I read Alfie Kohn's book when dd was three and testing everything and it really turned me off of the theory of gentle discipline for a long time. I didn't stop practicing gd, I just thought gd was a bunch of garbage for about a year. If your husband hasn't decided that he is willing to even just use a little gentle discipline, trying to lead him into it slowly may help him to get there sooner.

What won't help much is crying over a hypothetical situation without presenting alternatives and then telling him you don't trust him alone with his children anymore and closing yourself off to the dialouge he is trying to open with you. He is trying to open dialogue and he seems to be trying to make it clear that he will have some clear expectations. If you can help him explore other ways to make sure those expectations are met by offering other alternatives, you may find that he is more willing to try other ways and to work with you on the path towards raising your kids in a gentle and respectful way. If he thinks you are going to let the kids cross the boundaries he feels are important he will probably dig his heels in. If you have a happy trusting relationship then talk to him and have those discussions as calmly and rationally as you can. Use some of what it says in the last link to justify what you are saying. It basically seems to say that not spanking and spanking are just as effective, so why should he want to hit his child when he can use another method that isn't violent and that respects her body and sends her a clear message that it is never okay for anyone to hit her and claim they love her?

[syd'smom]

See if he would read Kids are Worth It by Barbara Coloroso. Good book that seems to appeal to "mainstream" parents.

[The4OfUs]

My husband is still convinced that sometime our kids might "need" a spanking , and is still convinced that he "never got a spanking he didn't deserve" (sigh). They are 5 and 3, and he has not hit them, because he knows it's important to me to not do it. So he does other things instead, and he follows my lead most of the time. I doubt I'd ever get him to agree that spanking is *wrong*, BUT, he has agreed to not spank our kids...because every time a situation comes up where he thinks it might be something to do, I have a different solution that works just as well. I'm not concerned with convincing him I'm "right", just in having him agree to not do it with our kids - KWIM?


ETA: The studies he sent you are quite frankly, outdated. The American Academy of Pediatrics came out against spanking in 2005, I believe...and you can't find a more mainstream children's organization than the AAP, right? http://www.aap.org/publiced/BR_Discipline.htm - actually, it's updated as of 2007, so that's even more recent.

I would just go at it like I did with my husband....Leave it to me, follow my lead, and there won't ever be a need to spank them. (I.e., bigger kid hits baby, bigger kid is separated, baby is moved out of way). Spanking her for that isn't going to guarantee she'll never do it again, just like it wouldn't guarantee she wouldn't run out into the street, etc. or any number of other "safety" reasons people give for spanking. Spanking parents don't suddenly believe their kid is going to stop doing whatever it is the first time...and if it takes mroe than one time with spanking, why on earth not pick something that doesn't involve hurting them?



IF he's up for a book, a great bride from authoritarian parenting to authoritative parenting is Anthony Wolf's "The Secret of Parenting: How to be in charge of today's kids, from toddlers to teens, without threats or punishments". It's a quick read, gives scripts, and has a great (IMO) explanation for why kids do what they do, and why threats and punishments work against the parent-child relationship, without being "out there" or "too lovey dovey" like some other gentle parenting books might be considered by some men.

[Fuamami]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

So basically he's saying that if he was too lazy to get up and be ready to move Ally away from the baby, he'd be able to get the energy to put her in time-out. And then, if he was too lazy to redirect/distract her if she went for the baby again, he'd be able to get the energy to spank her.

Why is punishing Ally more important to him than protecting the baby?

You know, you can't always be on top of a two year old. I don't think implying that your dh is lazy is going to help much, OP.

I think Lynn56 had some great advice. I would also suggest he think about how Ally might feel if she was punished, hit even, for hitting the baby. You can offer my experience, as a parent who lost her temper and spanked her two year old for hurting the baby. I am here to tell you there is no faster way to get your two year old angry, resentful, and OUT FOR THE BABY. So, I don't know if he'd believe it, but as far as immediate effectiveness goes, it wouldn't even have that.

[vegemamato]

First off, I'm very happy that you're being proactive by sending your partner links and starting conversations reguarding IMPORTANT parenting decisions. Many women (and men) make the mistake of assuming that their spouse is on the same page, until something comes up and it's too late (such as a spanking).

Second, I think that your partner really hasn't spent much energy on this, and it seems like he's running with the common belief that spanking is THE way to get cooperation (which, maybe it will in the immediate future- but as other's have pointed out, will be detrimental to your daughter's well-being in the long run). It also seems that he is feeling somewhat defensive, most likely because he is feeling that you're 'putting down' his parenting.

So, my advise is that you continue to discuss this, continue to bring up links/books, show/teach him about positive/gentle discipline and make sure he KNOWS that spanking is a deal-breaker for you (which he may already be aware of).

I hope you are able to help your partner understand how much this means to you (and Ally!).

[prothyraia]

Originally Posted by The4OfUs

Anthony Wolf's "The Secret of Parenting: How to be in charge of today's kids, from toddlers to teens, without threats or punishments".

I want to second this.

[BZeeMom]

I feel your pain!!!
I had a very similar <<argument>> with my DH around the same time, when my son was about two and began to have more interesting "ideas". I had the exact same reaction you had. I got overprotective, cried, yelled, threatened and generally freaked out. Funny thing is I am not a freak out kind of gal; I am usually pretty even tempered, but somehow this issue sent me into a nosedive of emotions. When I managed to calm down,, and after thinking about it a bit, I realized that (much like Vegemato mentioned) my DH had not spent one ounce of energy considering discipline, until the split second when he saw DS painting on the couch with a crayon. He found my calm assertive reaction bewildering. I had just removed the crayon from his hand, put away all the crayons (he is only supposed to be allowed to use them sitting on the kitchen counter to avoid this sort of thing, but DH had left them out) and explained calmly that we do not paint on furniture, only on paper. Aparently my DH expected a greek tragedy complete with timeouts, anger and spanking and my methods left him cold. He asked me, out of reach of hearing of the kid, if I didnt think that DS was old enough to get a "pop in the but" when he misbehaved, and I when kamikaze on him.
When I finally calmed down, two days later, I decided to have a calm reasonable, unemotional, rational discussion with DH. I gave him Dr. Sears book on discipline, highlighted a couple of chapters, and then asked him to read it when he had a chance. On the meantime I asked him to begin to consider how the spanking type of discipline should work. questions like how hard should you hit? should you hit right away or talk first? what constitutes a time when hitting is warranted? ( I did use the word HITTING consistently so as not to mascarade the true nature of the behavior)
Ten minutes into the conversation he could only forsee spanking the kid if he was about to run into traffic so that he would "understand the danger". At which point I said, "if you can run to him and keep him from running into traffic, why dont you just EXPLAIN to him that fast cars can hurt him if they hit him?"
ONE YEAR FAST FORWARD and many conversations along these lines, I had the pleasure of listening to my DH arguing with one of his male truck driving friends how he should not be "popping" his little girl when she misbehaved....
Incidently, DS has never painted the couch again (he did spread butt cream on it though), and has learned not to run into traffic without a single "pop" or timeout!!!! He also does NOT hit other children, and acts with complete surprise when another child hits him...
HANG IN THERE, he is probably not all that bad, give him a chance

[PDeverit]

Reasons not to Spank

Plain Talk About Spanking
http://nospank.net/pt2009.htm

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
http://www.nospank.net/sexdngrs.htm