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continuum concept - Page 3

post #41 of 57
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Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
I can see this but I don't see the benefit in saying we are better than aother country or x% of other countries. I can be greatful without downplaying the worth of my neighbors, ykwim?
No, we are not better, we are just luckier. There are people who live through war, hunger, epidemic and I have ultimate respect for those people doing their best to provide for their family. None of this is their fault. I can't imagine, say, having to give my children away because I fear for my own life. I came from there, I'm still one of them, but because of a freak of nature I'm here with enough food and shelter for my family. I'm grateful.

So no downplaying at all. Sorry it was interpreted not quite as I intended.
post #42 of 57
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Though yes it is all corruption, IMO, on many different levels.
Well... on the one hand, when greed and power are subduing your voice, it's easy to see it for what it is and raise people up against it. When the attitude is more "this is the way it's always been, you will have your turn someday soon", I think it's harder to change.

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I do see these things as being blocks in our society, though (age, gender, religion, etc etc).

Do you believe these things to be more of an issue in a close knit community? Why?
Well, to the extent that some people view you in terms of age, gender, religion- yes, they can always be blocks. But in general our culture actively promotes the ideals of celebrating diversity and tolerance- I hear about these things all the time, in a positive light. The close knit communities I have been around (cultural, and relgious) do not look on others with a tolerant eye, but rather, with a focus on what is "not like" them- often with a tinge of suspicion or disapproval.

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However in a tight knit community there isn't really the possibility to segregate on such a scale (depending on the function of said community). Age, race, gender, etc become irrelevant because the community needs us all to function as a whole. These things become a non-issue when we are together and know each other vs when we are encouraged to separate ourselves from our neighbor and assume things about him/her based on the stereotypes we have formed from our limited encounters.
But what about the way members of the tribe view OUTSIDERS! I mean, Mexicans may be stereotyped by non-Mexicans, but the Mexicans aren't so much stereotyping each other. Here, poor people identify with each other; they don't stereotype each other (well I'm sure there are some exceptions). The obvious difficulty in dealing with a "melting pot" society is coming to terms with the various differences amongst us; some will do this in a healthy way, others will not... but within a tribe or very close knit community you often lack either the opportunity or the desire to encounter these differences and utterly "foreign" perspectives on living. And, from what I've heard/seen, while you may still be useful to your community, your personal weaknesses may still become the tokens or nickname by which people identify you; it is human nature to classify and stereotype, in the same way that perhaps your socio-economic status can be nowadays. I'd rather be known as a Puerto-Rican than as a finger-toed farter (just pulling this out of nowhere, to illustrate a point).

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Even on a small level- like forming a group of like minded mamas to interact with- it's something!
I agree this is a goal to pursue. Do you think a "natural mama tribe" would be very different in structure than a "tribe"? A tribe may share qualities associated with religious ideas and occupation and geography, but they would inevitably have very different interests... which would be important to their survival. Whereas the entire idea of likeminded communities would be to cull together people who had your same interests... I've had this idea, but then have been left wondering- if I really want to improve things, and I'm truly community minded, I will just go out and comingle with ALL mommas, even those who patronize McDonalds and left their kids CIO. Not that I will condone those things; but that I will meet them where they are at and let them meet me where I am at. ??
post #43 of 57
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Originally Posted by momma_unlimited View Post
Well... on the one hand, when greed and power are subduing your voice, it's easy to see it for what it is and raise people up against it. When the attitude is more "this is the way it's always been, you will have your turn someday soon", I think it's harder to change.
Oh heck yes! I absolutely agree!
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Well, to the extent that some people view you in terms of age, gender, religion- yes, they can always be blocks. But in general our culture actively promotes the ideals of celebrating diversity and tolerance-
I am going to have to strongly disagree with this. It may be what we hear preached from the rooftops but it isn't what we practice, sadly. That's a whole other thread!
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But what about the way members of the tribe view OUTSIDERS! I mean, Mexicans may be stereotyped by non-Mexicans, but the Mexicans aren't so much stereotyping each other. Here, poor people identify with each other; they don't stereotype each other (well I'm sure there are some exceptions). The obvious difficulty in dealing with a "melting pot" society is coming to terms with the various differences amongst us; some will do this in a healthy way, others will not... but within a tribe or very close knit community you often lack either the opportunity or the desire to encounter these differences and utterly "foreign" perspectives on living. And, from what I've heard/seen, while you may still be useful to your community, your personal weaknesses may still become the tokens or nickname by which people identify you; it is human nature to classify and stereotype, in the same way that perhaps your socio-economic status can be nowadays. I'd rather be known as a Puerto-Rican than as a finger-toed farter (just pulling this out of nowhere, to illustrate a point).
I do agree with you here. But I am not too keen on becoming EXACTLY like these preindustrial tribes. Tribal life, yes, after a fashion but not to be taken literal. We have evolved and come into things that are great and I would like to be able to take that with us which is why I prefer community over tribe. Ok did that make any sense at all?

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I agree this is a goal to pursue. Do you think a "natural mama tribe" would be very different in structure than a "tribe"? A tribe may share qualities associated with religious ideas and occupation and geography, but they would inevitably have very different interests... which would be important to their survival. Whereas the entire idea of likeminded communities would be to cull together people who had your same interests... I've had this idea, but then have been left wondering- if I really want to improve things, and I'm truly community minded, I will just go out and comingle with ALL mommas, even those who patronize McDonalds and left their kids CIO. Not that I will condone those things; but that I will meet them where they are at and let them meet me where I am at. ??
So basically what you said in the beginning here is what I meant up there. As for the last bit I absolutely agree which is why I would like to... straddle the divide? I am unwilling to give up on this culture I was raised in. I think it needs a dissenting voice or 2 or 500,000. Then again as people we need some sort of community closer than what is currently offered us. A place to recharge in a sense. So no though I would love to move off and be a part of some glorious community and never have to deal with this crap here again the truth is the harder I push the better our current society can become.

I hope that all made sense. I am exhausted today.

geekmoma~ sorry I didn't mean to imply you were looking down your nose at other cultures or anything!! I know you aren't it just was worded wrong.
post #44 of 57
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As for the last bit I absolutely agree which is why I would like to... straddle the divide? I am unwilling to give up on this culture I was raised in. I think it needs a dissenting voice or 2 or 500,000. Then again as people we need some sort of community closer than what is currently offered us. A place to recharge in a sense.
This is the tune my heart is beating along with right now. I have been rather isolated for a while, because I think it was a time in my life where I really needed to figure out who I am and gain some perspective on how I can be who I am and still get along with others who are not like me. At this point, rather than forming a natural mothering group (which I did attempt, but somehow it didn't end up "flowing"), I am signing up for state programs that offer mothering support and "playdates", as well as child development programs. I realize I may completely disagree with many of the ideas presented to me, but- I agree with the fundamental premise of "support" for mother and child, and perhaps in some small way I can connect and impact those I meet. It's my social experiment- we'll see how it goes!
post #45 of 57
MAMAS!!! You DO make sense and your discussion is full of life and passion!!! It is a joy to read and participate with you. PLEASE stop downplaying your expressions. This is a discussion and not a comprehensive treatise on the subjects mentioned. I think we all know that we are not covering every detail of every aspect of what matters to us, so please, please, please, presume the value and sense in what you are sharing! IF something isn't coming through clearly, then we can ask questions and move forward in understanding together.

I am reading a book called Work Left Undone by Sally Morgan Reis, which is no doubt why I'm noticing this . In it, the author outlines the many and various ways that gifted and talented women diminish their expressions and the many and various reasons why they do it. So forgive my insistence, but it is rather clear to me that the mamas who've participated in this thread are all more than just capable of relating and discussing the topics here mentioned!

We are sensible and sensitive, instinctive, intuitive and intelligent mamas. Can we discuss this with personal and mutually understood confidence? :


*****************


I wanted to add to the discussion that my preference for how this would work as community living is not in the context of a tribe- which I really cannot have given the lack of familial bonding and such- is of family (nuclear or extended or whatever form chosen by its members) units living in a village setting, sharing and living together. I wouldn't want to emulate a group or commune-type setting wherein I am indentured or submitted.

From my present perspective, I think this is possible. I would have no desire to make decisions that directly affect another family without a complete mutual desire to do so, and voting and committees seldom achieve that.

Practically, I would like to buy a gigantic plot of land, parcel it and live next to, but not looking into the windows of, my friends' homes. I would still prefer some space between my home and that of others. I still want to explore and accomplish distinctly idiosyncratic pursuits. I imagine sharing possessions but retaining ownership, sharing and trading homegrown foods and wild caught game, learning new skills with others who are interested, building together, managing waste together, raising our own animals,. but sharing the benefits as mush as each desires to do so, and not more. I would not want anyone to feel or be coerced or compelled, but each giving and receiving according to his and her own desires and needs.

I know that may seem impossible, but I don't think it is. I think that if people have adequate privacy and adequate communal bonding activities, then boundaries can be known and respected, needs met, desires fulfilled (maybe not every one all the time, but they can be at the right times), friendhship, fellowship and community truly can happen. I think that it is possible to live peaceably with others.

If I stop believing that, I'm not sure how I could live- not as in a nihilistic way, but a completely lost way. I don't know how else to view the potential of human beings within the context of the universe and all it contains. To not believe this would literally wipe out every belief I have at my very core.

So, I'm going with it. Maybe alone in my locality, but I can't do anything else. It is too deeply ingrained in me and no less than every other aspect obvious to my identity.

How's that for passion?
post #46 of 57
Quote:
I wanted to add to the discussion that my preference for how this would work as community living is not in the context of a tribe- which I really cannot have given the lack of familial bonding and such- is of family (nuclear or extended or whatever form chosen by its members) units living in a village setting, sharing and living together. I wouldn't want to emulate a group or commune-type setting wherein I am indentured or submitted.
post #47 of 57
Preggie, what you described is not what I'd call a tight knit community. It seems completely feasible in Canada (but not in densely populated Asia or other places... another privileged NA has), and I have seen small communities in remote regions that do live similar to this. The only "problem" they have is that there is always someone in the neighbourhood that doesn't fit in, and keep doing things like polluting, stealing, outright lying, despite being warned multiple times. But they are minority, of course.

Good luck pursuing your dream... that's what keeps us going, right? Once you succeed, I'll be moving next to you in no time! (I wish it is this easy...)

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Originally Posted by momma_unlimited View Post
I am signing up for state programs that offer mothering support and "playdates", as well as child development programs. I realize I may completely disagree with many of the ideas presented to me, but- I agree with the fundamental premise of "support" for mother and child, and perhaps in some small way I can connect and impact those I meet. It's my social experiment- we'll see how it goes!
It sounds like an excellent idea. My personal experience is that you may be surprised by the existence of mom like you in your neighbourhood... Yes they do exist, and probably have been hiding like you, but it's such a pleasure once you discover each other. There are still many that don't click with me... but that's life, right?
post #48 of 57
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Originally Posted by geekmoma View Post
Preggie, what you described is not what I'd call a tight knit community.
I couldn't knit others to me, but it's my hope and dream that in attaining this way of life, we would knit ourselves closely, voluntarily, compelled intrinsically, in recognition of our ultimate and universal connection. I'm not sure what's closer than that. I couldn't have retrospectively intimate relationships, but I can endeavour to build them now.

I do know that work and morals come up frequently amongst people who are sharing. It will take an enormous amount of trust and intuition to find one another in this, whoever is searching for me as I (and my family) search for her and him. I don't know how we'll find one another, but I hope that we do, and when we do, I am sure that these issues can be surmounted if necessary. I tend to think that given my own perspective, I would attract like people.

The difficulty is that the finding is seldom that simple. I am married and we have children and that necessitates a whole set of considerations. My dh and I have had opposite reactions to people in the past (which has led to me being the one we defer to...). I have very strong intuition about people. I've never been surprised (either when a person presents a high level of consciousness or when someone exposes his or her low one, and everything in between); this maybe the only beneficial result of growing up with addicts and in impoverished neighbourhoods (and shelters).

I have assumed that when the time comes, we'll act according to the present circumstances. I really can't do anything else. Living in the city in the suburbs really doesn't resolve these issues, and living isolated in the woods brings other issues.

What other consideration can I make?

So our continuum has to now include a lot of disjointed upbringings. If that has hindered me, how else can I move forward except by trying to reclaim what I missed? I never had a close-knit anything until I had my own children. My growing family is the first set of authentic and healthy (well, mostly- still growing and changing) relationships I've ever had, and it's the same for my dh.

Personally, I need to construct a family around mine to capture some or as much of as possible, what we don't presently have. We need a community of people who are adopters and adoptees alike. We live in a remote place where most people's relatives don't also live. It is hugely immigrant or migrant populated, us included, and it is also a very progressive and open-minded group overall, so this is promising to us.

The city we drive into for goods wins a breastfeeding challenge every year because we have the most women who do per capita in Canada. I see babies in slings every time we go into town. The last place we lived I was stopped in a store and when a young woman asked me what I did to put my baby on like that, she was 'informed' by the person a feet away that 'it's just like the negroes do in Africa when they work in the fields'.

I thought I was going to throw up, but instead I responded that African women in certain places do sling their babies, and those women who do have been my source and inspiration to do so myself. I received polite smiles, and it was obvious to me that they were well-meaning, but just ignorant. Btw, I have a european background and my skin is only slightly darker than my very English husband's skin. I'm clearly not one of the women they were referring to (so they assumed I would be fine with that explanation...?), and the point of this is that here, I cannot even imagine that sort of comment. Sling comments are like, "What a beautiful sling! Did you make it?/Who made it?"

Anyway, we came here on purpose and for this reason. It is a very different sort of people who come here to live, in general. People without work ethic don't live in the woods, so it's a selection method to do so (we do)- at least for that.

It's ridiculously late for me... sigh.
post #49 of 57
Sound like a great place to live where you are! I didn't know it is such a progressive, liberal and open-minded mentality. I would have never imagine this for a place like yours. My definition of tight-knit community was more, eh, traditional, whereas yours is on the ... metaphysical side?

: about the sling comment: I would be too shocked to say anything meaningful. Never someone has said something any remotely like that to me. But my appearance is as (insert Asian emo-icon here) as it gets, which probably played a role...

I think it takes a certain courage to be outspoken about one's non-mainstream dream or beliefs. I used to be quite forthright about my crunchy tendency, but recently have backed up a lot. I sense for some, my straightforward speech sounds patronizing, even though it was never my intention. I am guessing probably they are feeling uncomfortable about the bit of truth in what I say (for example, regarding AP), but don't want to change the easier way they have always been doing. I cannot know for sure since they never confront me, just move away... One sad episode was about a previously mainstream friend, to whom I did the whole speech about AP (bf, cd, baby-warining, etc) when she was pregnant, and completely sold about my approach and was eager to try it. When she had her baby, she had problems with BF for the first few weeks (nurses gave baby bottle . Her DH told me she cried often, saying why her friend (me) could do so much, and she couldn't even breastfeed her own daughter. It was heartbreaking for me to hear : . She lived 2000km away at the time, so I couldn't really provide any help besides phone calls and emails. BUT a good ending about this story is that she was able to "wean" her daughter from formula bottles at 1.5m and was exclusively breastfeeding her from 2-6m. I was so proud of her!

Since then I quieted down a lot. When I had to explain baby wearing or EC, I often (shamefully) say it's part of my culture to avoid skepticism and confrontation. It was completely untrue: I didn't get them from my family at all. I backed down into my cocoon and assuming that searching out for connection is useless. Until recently I showed up at mommy club, and out of 40+ moms, the connection I found with 1 mom was enough for me to feel delighted and not isolated anymore. :

It has been a fascinating thread. I think it was magstphil who said our society made it taboo to offer and accept help? You are absolutely right. Ideology debate put aside, this thread inspired me to call my friend/neighbor, whose son is sick, to offer some help. Of course she thanked me and politely refused my help but I am still glad I did it.
post #50 of 57
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It has been a fascinating thread. I think it was magstphil who said our society made it taboo to offer and accept help? You are absolutely right. Ideology debate put aside, this thread inspired me to call my friend/neighbor, whose son is sick, to offer some help. Of course she thanked me and politely refused my help but I am still glad I did it.
So funny you bring this up! I just had two family friends come over and help a bit here. I am on bedrest and not suppose to cook or clean but it's hard not having help and no matter how loudly I preach it I just have the hardest time asking for help. I find that I am humiliated by it. Not that I think I am any better than anyone else it's just that I have this feirce independence and needing help just kills me!! Anyway last night I swallowed my pride and instead of refusing the offer of help said "ok, that sounds good". Oh man that was sooooo hard!!! But I need to understand it is ok. And I know if anyone else needed the help I do I'd be there in a heart beat so why can't I be ok with needing help?
post #51 of 57
Hey Ladies-

Had to add this in here- http://christopherushomeschool.typep...m-concept.html.

Insightful (to me anyways!) discussion... I thought this summed up what I was trying to say earlier in a more eloquent way...

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So one of my problems with Liedloff is the core upon which she sets out her work - as a materialist, her methods are based on what I would see as a very limited understanding of human development (if human beings are spiritual beings, then a way of understanding development which takes no notice of the spiritual element is of course going to be restricted). And this is the basis of her work - that human consciousness is a continuum and that modern babies carry their needs which were formulated in the dawn of human awakening with them. Anthroposophy, on the other hand, tells us that human beings, most importantly, human consciousness, has developed over the millennia and that our present modern consciousness is worlds away from that of previous eras or epochs. Liedloff says that what we need to do is to get in touch with our innate wisdom that has been programmed (sic) into us and which is wise. Anthroposophy tells us that we no longer hear the voices of the ancestors and that our task as modern free human beings is to develop heart-warmed thinking which will help us form the correct conclusions.
post #52 of 57
I guess I should be clear that even in my admiration for the insights of JL, I don't follow any prescribed method of parenting. Certainly my own thoughts and actions tend in ways that philosophers have already identified and incorporated into their systems, but I am not a system and don't rely on any one to fully inform my thoughts and actions. I am, myself, not a materialist (obviously). I default to my own consciousness (reeeally not materialist!!!) and if that aligns with the expressions and observations of others, fine, but unlike many mamas, I am not apt to take a set of rubrics from a system and use them to guide my life. Deep breath...

I also think that it is difficult to reconcile the notion of instinct with materialism, not impossible, but difficult and requires much stretching. If JL is a materialist, she would have to do a lot of fancy moves to reconcile her observation of instinct. My dh thinks that if anything, she may be materialist in her approach to science, but that otherwise he figures her conclusions could tend toward rationalism, but definitely not purist materialism.

I understand that most scientists are materialists, but not all, and certainly JL would not be able to be in agreement with most of them given her conclusions. I just don't see the possibility of raw materialism in her work.

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And this is the basis of her work - that human consciousness is a continuum and that modern babies carry their needs which were formulated in the dawn of human awakening with them. Anthroposophy, on the other hand, tells us that human beings, most importantly, human consciousness, has developed over the millennia and that our present modern consciousness is worlds away from that of previous eras or epochs.
This need not be a distinction at all though. It can be both, and I believe it is. Even in observing the natural world of which we are part, I can see a continuum that is not exclusively human. Raising baby animals really drives this home.

We raised our goslings with the same attention to care and meeting needs that we have in raising our boys because they are babies too and they had no mother, so we filled in as well as we could. That necessitated listening to them and learning their needs. While they seemed far less complex than those of our children, their expressions were distinct from the moment they arrived and they developed communication according to our nurturing as well as to their species' continuum (which I do think is far greater than materialism can account for).

The issue I have with making such a claim is that as far as makes sense to me, all babies, human or not, require specific care. Those beings who are classified as mammals have a tendency to nurture in ways that reptiles typically do not. I think that as human beings, whenever and however we came into being as such, our babies have always needed basically the same things. I don't believe based on my own observations that any human babies have ever not needed the basic care they do now- food, closeness, shelter, etc... and whatever other more specific needs they have as individual babies would have always occurred too. Even our two geese have distinct needs apart from their species-common ones.

I guess apart from asserting the inadequacy of materialism, the only true issue that merits further consideration imo is that mothers who 'follow' TCC become doormats to their children, which she admits is the opposite of what JL advocates. JL doesn't give much direction in her writing to a method at all (which is why she called it a concept and not a method, I figure), let alone one that would tend toward this, so mothers who end up in that situation have missed the point, imo.

If they are not mothering according to the authentic basic and authentic specific needs of their children and families, then they might expect an imbalance, no? I really don't see how the author's experience with seeing mothers who claim to be 'following' TCC as being imbalanced expresses anything about the actual concepts involved in JL's research. Obviously the women she studied were not following any method. They were just being and she qualified their actions, and summed it all up as pertaining to a concept, in a book. Trying to reconcile it all in reverse, beginning with an imbalanced approach to mothering, is absurd imo.

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Liedloff says that what we need to do is to get in touch with our innate wisdom that has been programmed (sic) into us and which is wise. Anthroposophy tells us that we no longer hear the voices of the ancestors and that our task as modern free human beings is to develop heart-warmed thinking which will help us form the correct conclusions.
Okay, this is interesting, but without any explanation of 'heart-warmed' which I cannot see as being distinct from ancestral care of human babies (or even animals who are depressed upon losing a baby and birds who will not lay any more eggs if their eggs are taken, as very simplistic examples), I would call the author's treatment a false dichotomy.

I find that my own mothering, upon reflecting on the 'sides' presented here, falls well within both and not straddling or dipping into, but nearly fully within the parameters of both, as presented, minus the assertion that we have no innate wisdom, which is absurd to me as well (incidentally, the idea that children are born to reinvent the wheel cannot be proven in any theoretical or actual way with materialism, so if JL were a materialist, she would not advocate innate wisdom or instinct).

Further, the author presents a philosophical stance that advocates infants as tabula rasa upon birth- no innate wisdom- which is just as limiting a perspective as the one she claims JL has expressed in regard to human development. It is really a veiled presentation of the 'nature vs nurture' argument, which I also think is a false dichotomy.

I actually thought I understood better your position before this quotation. I think you have expressed your philosophy more clearly than the author of the article, personally. The article from which the above quotation derives is fraught with philosophical contradiction and logical fallacies, however well-intentioned.

I'm not meaning to seem harsh, but I honestly think your own explanations on this thread have been far more cohesively aligned and logically presented than in the article you linked.

Perhaps there is more to it that assumes previous agreement? Maybe you have another article I could read that explains in more detail? I can see how if you believe tabula rasa, instinct would mean something completely different and innate wisdom from ancestral influence impossible, but how would you reconcile that with collective human consciousness? I don't get it.
post #53 of 57
Hey, about helping: We have a friend who doesn't have a car and often calls us to ask for a ride when he wants to buy something big. He called on Sunday, and we said we were too busy. By yesterday evening, I had thought of something I wanted to buy in the same neighborhood, so I called to see if he still needed a ride, even though I felt so busy and stressed that it seemed silly to take on extra time and complication. Well, I'm so glad I did it! : Even though I spent a lot more time waiting for him than doing my own errand, it was fun being involved in helping him choose things and seeing him so happy with what he got. Stocking up on clothes was a big deal for him because he's so thrifty, these were the first new clothes he'd bought in 14 years, and he'd managed to pick just the right time for clothes he liked at good prices. I love clothes-shopping but don't need any clothes right now, so this gave me a "fix" while helping my friend and getting to spend time with him (good conversation in the car) even though my week is "too busy for socializing." Oh, and I took his cash and used my credit card to earn extra Target Points. So it was a pleasant evening of connecting with one person in my "village", despite all the 21st-century big-corporation experiences involved. Kind of cool.
post #54 of 57
Geekmoma, a treasure from Marianne Williamson in response to your last heart-felt and vulnerable post:

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us.

We ask, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?

You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.

We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone.

And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give others permission to do the same. As we're liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."

I do love this quotation. I might use some different words, but I can't imagine a person who couldn't interpret this to her or his own benefit. As I understand it, I believe it is true, and true freedom awaits our recognition of its reality, not a striving after freedom as though it didn't already exist in abundance.

Let your light shine, mamas (including you, geekmoma)!
post #55 of 57
Wow we took away such different things from this- so interesting to read your take.

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I also think that it is difficult to reconcile the notion of instinct with materialism, not impossible, but difficult and requires much stretching. If JL is a materialist, she would have to do a lot of fancy moves to reconcile her observation of instinct. My dh thinks that if anything, she may be materialist in her approach to science, but that otherwise he figures her conclusions could tend toward rationalism, but definitely not purist materialism.
Hmm, I guess within the context of this blog I took this to mean that JL studied only what she saw in the material world to form her conclusions, whereas an anthroposophical approach would involve spiritual science- utilizing faculties of the soul which a more scientific approach would ignore- for both observation and drawing conclusions. Probably your husband is right about the exact classification...

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The issue I have with making such a claim is that as far as makes sense to me, all babies, human or not, require specific care. Those beings who are classified as mammals have a tendency to nurture in ways that reptiles typically do not. I think that as human beings, whenever and however we came into being as such, our babies have always needed basically the same things. I don't believe based on my own observations that any human babies have ever not needed the basic care they do now- food, closeness, shelter, etc... and whatever other more specific needs they have as individual babies would have always occurred too.
I don't think the author meant to suggest that our babies' physical needs differ presently from earlier times, but their rather, their metaphysical needs do. At least, that was what I took away from the post. Re-reading it, she says "Anthroposophy, on the other hand, tells us that human beings, most importantly, human consciousness, has developed over the millennia and that our present modern consciousness is worlds away from that of previous eras or epochs".

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If they are not mothering according to the authentic basic and authentic specific needs of their children and families, then they might expect an imbalance, no? I really don't see how the author's experience with seeing mothers who claim to be 'following' TCC as being imbalanced expresses anything about the actual concepts involved in JL's research. Obviously the women she studied were not following any method. They were just being and she qualified their actions, and summed it all up as pertaining to a concept, in a book.
I thought it was a very specific correlation made about taking the "concept" of "the innate wisdom of children" and translating it, in practice, to allowing children to dictate everyday matters... I also think after reading the book it can be tempting to doubt your own ability to distinguish your children's needs, as beings so "immersed" in our non-authentic culture, and to believe that since they have not been so tainted by modern life, they (our children)would be a guide in telling us what they need. To some extent this is true; from infancy our children give us cues and we "read" their behaviour to detect their needs. But, I believe we are to be more to them than physical protectors who simply allow them to grow however they so should please so long as no bodily harm or property damage occurs. I believe they have much more complex needs in the arena of soul/spirit and seek guidance and correction which we intuitively, as their mothers, can offer which they do not know how to ask for (verbally or non), or even know their need for it exists.

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Further, the author presents a philosophical stance that advocates infants as tabula rasa upon birth- no innate wisdom- which is just as limiting a perspective as the one she claims JL has expressed in regard to human development. It is really a veiled presentation of the 'nature vs nurture' argument, which I also think is a false dichotomy.
I doubt anyone with anthroposphic leanings would advocate tabula rasa; my guess would be that the author believes we carry MUCH within our consciousness that is "sleeping" from previous lives, and we can help awaken these things... in fact it would be our mission to do so.
post #56 of 57
EnviroBecca- great story! Sounds like you did use your time wisely. This isn't nearly as interesting but today I picked up my neighbor's favorite brand of tp while out grocery shopping and she picked up my raw milk for me at a local farm in the opposite direction... =) Always satisfying to meet the needs of others and in turn have needs we may not have known existed get met.
post #57 of 57
This is a completely off-topic personal note, but I guess a "thank you" note is never redundant

Thank you Preggie for the quote, and everyone who have contributed to this thread. I'm going through a low moment of my life (depression, stress, anxiety) and have done more introspect reflection and soul searching in the past month than during the past 10 years. I have spent most of my life as (and to become) a trained scientist (ie a ultimate materialist ), and have seriously neglected the spirituality side of me which has shrunk into some unrecognizable form... By a pure chance I stumble across this thread, and it has provided a much needed terrain for thoughts and personal reflection.

I am definitely going to read up on Anthroposophy: I was beyond shocked to find how its underlying philosophy corresponds with my own personal belief.
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