Methinks the culprit is salicylates... What do I do?

[mamafish9]

OK, 10 confusing and frustrating days of pretty strict ED and food journaling, and I think I finally have my finger on part of the problem. DS has pretty quick reactions to what he/I eat - his nighttime stuffy nose seems to relate to what we eat that day. Assuming that is true, then I was having a heck of a time figuring out the triggers - we had some totally clear nights, and some awful nights, and it didn't relate well to particular foods (and we're only eating about 10 things!). And last night was bad and I didn't eat anything that had caused a problem before...

Until I circled back around to salicylates. Bingo. I'd cut back DS on his dried fruits, but he was still eating lots of raw apple and dates - and the most "reacted" to foods were avocado, coconut meat and oil (but not coconut milk, I think) ... and then I looked at my olive oil consumption. Last night I made "hummus" - garbanzo beans, and a huge heap of olive oil - and then I pigged out, because garbanzo beans passed the test the previous two days.

And I haven't been keeping track of quantities, but looking back, the days that look high salicylate load for both of us are the worst for his stuffies and itching. Oh, and wanting to nurse non-stop. And this makes sense - his daddy has serious glutamate sensitivities (and probably salicylates too, now that I look at the list...)

Soooo - I can get our diet lower in salicylates. But with being off gluten and dairy as well (I want to keep that up for at least two months), and with a picky, texture sensitive two year old with limited language (understood or spoken), we need to eat something. I've ordered some no-fenol to try as well, and I'll start him on Epsom salt baths. Any other ideas? I'd like to remove some, and support salicylate digestion some, and see if we can find a happy medium of better symptoms but still a reasonable range of fruits and veggies to eat.

Thanks for the help - I feel like I'm drinking from a fire hose here, trying to keep up with all the stuff that might be going on in one little body!

[tanyalynn]

This page has a list of drugs/chemicals (including stuff like amines, salicylates and phenols) matched up to phase-2 detoxification pathways. Seems like that's a place to start. Maybe both you and DH want to read through the list, see if either of you has had odd reactions to drugs or foods or anything that are on the list, to help piece things together.

Then this page should help a bit with nutrients needed for those pathways. And I tend to think a general multivit and a mineral supp are just good insurance, so things don't get too unbalanced (hopefully, nothing's guaranteed ).

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

This page has a list of drugs/chemicals (including stuff like amines, salicylates and phenols) matched up to phase-2 detoxification pathways. Seems like that's a place to start. Maybe both you and DH want to read through the list, see if either of you has had odd reactions to drugs or foods or anything that are on the list, to help piece things together.

Then this page should help a bit with nutrients needed for those pathways. And I tend to think a general multivit and a mineral supp are just good insurance, so things don't get too unbalanced (hopefully, nothing's guaranteed ).

Thank you - both those are hugely helpful. Do you happen to know which pathway processes glutamates - would it be amino acid conjugation (handles glutamine). Some takeaways for me - magnesium, molybdenum, fish oils, check into glycine, and sulfation pathway issues with NSAIDS (both DH and DS have taken quite a lot for other reasons). Also, the sulfoxidation is interesting - DH and I both have "asparagus pee", which sounds like it means we need to be careful of sulphites (DH loves wine, but it triggers migraines for him). A lot to process, but hugely useful, thank you!

[deditus]

I can't specifically help except to say that No-Fenol and epsom salt baths have helped us tremendously, much more than I realized. We recently moved and ran out of epsom salt for a few weeks while we got settled in and lost eggs because of it We are just starting on the molybdenum, so I am really hoping that helps as all of our issues seem to be sulfation related. We are gfcf and have issues with sals and sulfur foods.

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by deditus

I can't specifically help except to say that No-Fenol and epsom salt baths have helped us tremendously, much more than I realized. We recently moved and ran out of epsom salt for a few weeks while we got settled in and lost eggs because of it We are just starting on the molybdenum, so I am really hoping that helps as all of our issues seem to be sulfation related. We are gfcf and have issues with sals and sulfur foods.

Yeah, I'm desperate to add eggs back in as soon as possible - both for the nutrition and the sticking together of many things (my DS is autistic and SHREDS any food that is not thoroughly stuck together).

I'm glad to hear the no-fenol and epsom salts work for you, hopefully they will for us as well!

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

This page has a list of drugs/chemicals (including stuff like amines, salicylates and phenols) matched up to phase-2 detoxification pathways. Seems like that's a place to start. Maybe both you and DH want to read through the list, see if either of you has had odd reactions to drugs or foods or anything that are on the list, to help piece things together.

Then this page should help a bit with nutrients needed for those pathways. And I tend to think a general multivit and a mineral supp are just good insurance, so things don't get too unbalanced (hopefully, nothing's guaranteed ).

I was wondering where I'd seen that. I thought it was you who'd posted it but couldn't remember. Thanks!

[JaneS]

What 10 things are you eating? I might have some ideas for replacing them with foods low in chemicals.

Is it an egg allergy or sensitivity you think you are dealing with?

My DS is doing better just by eating lots of sulfur, he's handling some low-moderate sals now. He cannot handle epsom salt baths but does well eating sulfur foods, go figure.

[JaneS]

www.salicylatesensitivity.com

[lil_miss_understood]

JaneS
She's not around as much as we'd like her to be, but Jane is an amazing resource on several subjects, mamafish, and I would so jump at the chance to pick her brain on this one.

[mamafish9]

OK, jumping .

Hi Jane - I'm a newbie to food sensitivities - up until a couple of months ago (until he turned 2), DS showed no noticeable signs of food sensitivity. He's autistic, and texture sensitive, so he started solids very late (around 18 months), and his favorite foods are dried fruit and Larabars (dates + almonds). He still gets about 75% of his calories from nursing.

Two months ago, he got a virus of some sort, and after that, we suddenly started seeing some unusual symptoms - permanently stuffy nose, itching, red anus, wanting to nurse every 20 minutes some days. Then he got constipated, which was awful . I took us both off dairy about 5-6 weeks ago, figuring that was the most likely culprit. No change. I was pretty desperate to deal with the constipation, so I went to a modified TED. Our list was chicken, lamb, sweet potatoes, squash, carrot, avocado, olive oil, flax, coconut & coconut oil, dates, pears, grapes/raisins, apples, prunes, hemp milk, rice, millet, buckwheat. 10 days of that and some days his symptoms are almost gone, some days they're as bad as they used to be. And the pattern to what we ate wasn't obvious, although avocado and dried coconut (but not coconut milk/yogurt) seemed to be problems.

Then I read more about salicylates, and looked at total load - in particular, his consumption of fruit in a day + my consumption of olive oil, coconut oil, and avocado. Bingo, pretty clear relationship.

I've added back in a few things along the way - Bob's Red Mill GF flour (garbanzo beans and several other things), garbanzo beans. Three days ago I added peanut butter, and today eggs (I'm going to try to rotate those and eat every four days to help with protein sources other than meat).

As for salicylates, I've taken away all dried fruit, and left him raw, peeled apples, which he loves - but just one slice a day. I got some digestive enzymes (no-fenol is on the way), and we're both taking those. I'm working on getting him to eat beans - today he ate a falafel like fried thing I made from garbanzo beans, so that is progress! As I understand it, those are low sals and also a good source of molybdenum (and to think a week ago I didn't know what that was, LOL). He doesn't do veggies.

I'm open to adding other things - I'm concerned that too narrow a diet can create lots of other issues, so I'm backing away from focusing so much on "intolerances to specific foods", and looking more at food chemical loads and things I can do to support better digestion of sals.

Things I still need to be careful of:

1) constipation - we're finally clear of the physical problem, I think, but there's a big psychological (not wanting to poop) issue that created, and I really want to make sure we keep his poops soft.

2) Gluten and dairy. With DS being autistic, those two are red flags, and I'd like to do at least a two month trial of those (and soy, since that often goes along with dairy). Much as I'd like to pull dairy back in, I think a few weeks more will give us a more definitive sense of whether or not it's an issue for DS.

Any and all suggestions hugely welcome! Also, I'd seen the salicylate sensitivity food guide, it's really helpful. There are some key foods we eat I don't know about though - flax, flax oil, coconut milk, squash - do you have any idea about these?

And do you think it's worth thinking too much about amines and stuff at this point, or just getting sals down and seeing what happens then?

[Theloose]

Sals are generally detoxed by sulfation and glucuronidation. If sulfur foods seem to be a problem too, I'd look at molybdenum and B6. If not, you can try eating more of them. If you think gut bacteria might be an issue, then calcium d glucarate might be a good supplement while you work on probiotics to replace the gut flora.

[tanyalynn]

Hmm... Cutler said glycine conjugation rather than sulfation (and I double-checked the book to rule out copying errors). But it sounds like people have had success supporting sulfation for this.

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by whoMe

Sals are generally detoxed by sulfation and glucuronidation. If sulfur foods seem to be a problem too, I'd look at molybdenum and B6. If not, you can try eating more of them. If you think gut bacteria might be an issue, then calcium d glucarate might be a good supplement while you work on probiotics to replace the gut flora.

I figure more molybdenum can't be bad, regardless. My prenatal has some (75mcg), and I got DS to eat beans today (no way I can get him to take a supplement). I should find out how sulphur foods do, he horked eggs today. I've been giving him probiotics, but I'll go look at the calcium stuff, thanks.

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

Hmm... Cutler said glycine conjugation rather than sulfation (and I double-checked the book to rule out copying errors). But it sounds like people have had success supporting sulfation for this.

Since I'm not sure, I'm tagging both of those and glucuronidation as things to keep an eye on. Sals falls into the phenols category your linkie had for sulfation, and many parents with ASD kids report success supporting sulfation, so I'm thinking it can't hurt. Also, DS had quite a bit of NSAIDS earlier this year, and that might have knocked his sulfation pathways out of whack, that might explain part of how we got here...

[deditus]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

I figure more molybdenum can't be bad, regardless. My prenatal has some (75mcg), and I got DS to eat beans today (no way I can get him to take a supplement). I should find out how sulphur foods do, he horked eggs today. I've been giving him probiotics, but I'll go look at the calcium stuff, thanks.



Since I'm not sure, I'm tagging both of those and glucuronidation as things to keep an eye on. Sals falls into the phenols category your linkie had for sulfation, and many parents with ASD kids report success supporting sulfation, so I'm thinking it can't hurt. Also, DS had quite a bit of NSAIDS earlier this year, and that might have knocked his sulfation pathways out of whack, that might explain part of how we got here...

We're doing a liquid molybdenum from Allergy Research Group. No-Fenol should help with poops, as it softens stool.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

Hmm... Cutler said glycine conjugation rather than sulfation (and I double-checked the book to rule out copying errors). But it sounds like people have had success supporting sulfation for this.

That's odd. I haven't come across glycine for sals before. If you look up Waring's research, she has studies that show kids that are sensitive to sals tend to be low on sulfate. I've seen glucuronidation mentioned in a couple places, but I'm still digging for my actual links...

[JaneS]

chicken, lamb, sweet potatoes, squash, carrot, avocado, olive oil, flax, coconut & coconut oil, dates, pears, grapes/raisins, apples, prunes, hemp milk, rice, millet, buckwheat

That is a lot of sals. It's possible once you cut down he could still have some of these some of the time, but not all, all the time, ykwim? It's a "full bucket" type of intolerance, only when the body's ability to process them is overloaded do you get a reaction.

FWIW we didn't see help from No Fenol, but it appears that reducing sal consumption plus upping sulfur foods (eggs, red meat and raw milk) are making a difference.

A low sal diet similar to what you are on would be:
Chicken, lamb, white potatoes, green beans, asparagus, cabbage, peas, leeks, iceberg lettuce, palm oil, ghee, rice, sorghum, arrowroot, tapioca, potato starch, millet, chickpeas, beans, lentils, cashew, pecan, sunflower seeds, pear, banana, golden delicious apple, maple syrup.

What about fish?

Would you consider making homemade brown rice milk instead of the hemp? Reports are that hemp is very indigestible and negligible or negative on nutritional benefit. I've read some really interesting things on the calming nutrients in soaked brown rice. (Yeah, don't ask me to cite, I can't remember but a friend was using it for her son who had petit mal seizures. When you soak brown rice a bunch of B vitamins and other nutrients are increased. Maybe a certain calming amino acid. Sorry for the brain skip.)

I think NSAIDs were a factor in my DS's sal intolerance as well.

For ASDs I think the most important nutritional interventions studied are vitamin A (natural retinol in cod liver oil, not retinyl palmitate in vitamins) and cholesterol. Low amounts of both are connected to impaired learning, eye disorders, and brain development. And of course the omega 3s in CLO are important as well. I think hemp is like flax, the body needs to convert the essential fatty acids and that pretty much rules out their effectiveness in any person with gut problems or enzyme deficiencies. Ditto beta carotene-vitamin A conversion (see Dr. Mary Megson research). The omega 3s and vitamin A in CLO are in bioavailable form.

Whether gluten and dairy produce opiate peptides to influence behavior in ASD kids is a very individual thing. Not everyone has this issue.

Texture issues are often correlated with low zinc.

Go easy on the garbanzo flour, our experience is that DS can only tolerate a little at a time. We usually use sorghum cut with a bit of other lighter flours like arrowroot or tapioca. Plus garbanzo is very high in omega 6 fatty acids, you want more omega 3 and less 6.

See how he does on the eggs.
ASD and Cholesterol Deficiency
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com...holesterol.asp

Your breastmilk will contain cholesterol but this is dependent on how much is in your diet too. He probably needs more both from you and in his diet. I would consider trialling ghee which is casein free if you suspect he isn't IgE to dairy, it is recommended for a GFCF diet, and would be another good source of cholesterol, and for vitamin K2. Shellfish is also very high in cholesterol. Has he had any IgE type reactions?

Viruses reduce vitamin A as well as can change the gut flora. What probiotics are you using? Bifidobacterium is very important for constipation issues esp. in very young kids. I would do probiotics 3x/day and see what happens.

You know, I am hearing more and more sensitivities to coconut too. I would look at that with a questioning eye.

[JaneS]

I disagree on the thinking to keep his poops soft. You want firm normal poops that pass easily. Too soft and they are actually harder to pass. I've been through this with DS. He now spends as much time doing #2 as #1... he's in and out and much more comfortable! This is a gut flora issue rather than not eating enough fiber as the commercials would like you to believe. A lot of fiber on an inflamed gut is painful and damaging.

[riomidwife]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Would you consider making homemade brown rice milk instead of the hemp? Reports are that hemp is very indigestible and negligible or negative on nutritional benefit.

Can you expand more on this? Who is studying the digestibility of hemp milk?

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Your breastmilk will contain cholesterol but this is dependent on how much is in your diet too. He probably needs more both from you and in his diet.

Ooh, since you're here... the amount of cholesterol in breastmilk should be proportionate to measureable blood cholesterol, shouldn't it? Have you ever read anything other than this?

It seems like cholesterol could be an additional concern for some kids, like those whose mothers (me) have very low cholesterol. I am guessing both my kids were short-changed in that regard (among others). We went crazy on eggs for quite a while, and just recently have eased up a bit.

OP: I hope you can get eggs back soon, they are so convenient and it seems easier to get high-quality eggs than other high-quality animal products, which is extra nice.

[crunchy_mama]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Would you consider making homemade brown rice milk instead of the hemp? Reports are that hemp is very indigestible and negligible or negative on nutritional benefit. I've read some really interesting things on the calming nutrients in soaked brown rice. (Yeah, don't ask me to cite, I can't remember but a friend was using it for her son who had petit mal seizures. When you soak brown rice a bunch of B vitamins and other nutrients are increased. Maybe a certain calming amino acid. Sorry for the brain skip.)

Just lurking w/ not anything to add- but I find this interesting. I have attempted rice milk once and it was a horrible failure. I really need to try it again though. Do you have a simple recipe you like?