Christian Universalists... What do you believe?

[genifer]

Well, the title says it all really. Christian here. Im seeking .... revelation, understanding about some things Ive not really held to be foundational to MY personal faith but may be instrumental in my... Spreading the Gospel, Going into all the world and making disciples. So I was wondering if you who believe in a universal salvation... could you give scripture examples that back up why you believe like so? Or some REALLY good links that explain it using scripture, bc Ive done some research and when I search the sites, I cant find out why they believe what they believe. Cheers!! See, Im one who does believe that you cant take parts of scripture and ignore the rest. I do believe that the bible is the only inspired word of God. I hope Im allowed to say that here...

[Bluegoat]

You might want to investigate the beginnings of the Universalist Church. They eventually amalgamated with the Unitarians to become the UU church, but you might find some useful stuff in their historical beginnings - I know here in NS there used to be public debates between the Universalism and other religious clergy, which centered on the topic of universalism.

I think the general sense is that a Good god would not condemn any of his creatures to Hell, but would desire union with all, and so create a universe where that is possible.

Another side to universalism is more agnostic, and from a particularly Christian perspective. It simply states that as far as non-Christians go, we really have no clear idea how God will deal with them. Maybe they will all end up in heaven, or maybe some will. This position is found within the OC, the Anglican Church, and I think also it's found within Roman Catholicism, as well, I'm sure, as many others. But clearly it does not agree with the stance held by some that all non-Christians are condemned. If you google Christian universalism you'll come up with something.

[genifer]

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?fr...sm%20&ei=UTF-8

Thats the yahoo search I did and here's the wikipedia page I found there...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism

The bit that says they reject hell, we would have to do away with a lot of the bible and some of what Jesus Himself said, I think... This is a whole new avenue Im finally able to venture down. Dealing with personal issues in the recent past had me not able to investigate these things, but I think Im ready.

I did a search about universalism and the bible and found this site...

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Univ...he%20Bible.htm

One of the marks of a Pharisee, a hypocrite, according to Jesus, is a person who says he believes in something but doesn’t do it themselves. They take a position on something and their very own life bears witness against the very thing they supposedly believe. Have you ever heard the statement “Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did Heaven?” I have heard dozens of Christians pass this on, yet they never checked the Bible to see if it was true. If they did check out this “traditional” saying in the scriptures, they would stop saying it because the Scriptures prove them wrong. Dear reader, please go to your Bible and check it out yourself. The statement is categorically false--that is, if you truly let the BIBLE itself determine the truth for you.

Now, this is funny. Thats a quote from that website. The highlighted bit, Ive actually heard other christians say this and I actually did go and do a search and tis true! Jesus didnt talk about hell more then heaven!

I also had a chance to read some of the LOADS of scripture that does suggest at universalism... And it sounds interesting. Something to pray about definately.

[Bluegoat]

One interesting thing in any discussion about Christian universalism is the connection between universalism and individualism.

One of the most famous early Christian proponents of universalism was Origin, who was a very influential theologian. A bit odd though, as a young man he castrated himself to avoid the sins of the flesh - a lesson, perhaps, in the follies of youthful idealism. Overall, though, universalism was rejected, as not being compatible with the Biblical evidence, and causing problems with free will.

However, the idea that salvation is offered to all who desire and choose it, as opposed to only being offered to some, or that God caused some to reject it, was certainly accepted by the church as a whole. So those who propose a universalist solution tend to argue that everyone accepts God's offer of salvation, or that they get it whether they want it or not.

[mammal_mama]

I'm pressed for time but here's a great site --

http://www.tentmaker.org/

For me, Christian Universalism has seemed like a natual outgrowth of motherhood (though of course it's been a gradual tranformation with much reading and thought). Becoming a mother has brought me into a whole new dimension of love. And I know I can't possibly be any more loving or forgiving than God is.

So if I'll always (or as long as humanly possible) be available to welcome any child who strays back with open arms -- how much more forgiving must God be? He Who is not bound by human constraints like old age or death?

No, I wouldn't "force" my love on my children, but it will always be here for them, as long as I am here. And I simply can not see God as any less forgiving or loving.

[genifer]

I checked out that tentmaker sight Mammal-mamma and couldnt find a page that says what they believe about somethings I have questions about. Like the bible and what it means when it does talk about Hell. See, I have come to a place where I do believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. I read modern nkjv and niv and the good news bible, and well basically modern translations of the kjv. Just so we know where Im coming from. I mean I know, duh, so you all know where Im coming from, lol. I would like to know what universalists believe about the bible. I can accept that Jesus didnt go around talking hellfire and damnation everytime He spoke, but I think He did talk about the Narrow Way and that few find it. But what I do have an issue with is the fact that it isnt elaborated on whether Death is... the final judgement, so to speak, no chances after Death. Except the parable or story about Lazarus in the busom of Abraham and the Rich man who was condemned to Hell and actually regretted that he couldnt go back and tell his family. I will try to find these specific verses during my bible study this morning. But for now, what do universalists believe about the bible, is it Holy Spirit inspired, iyo? Then what do you believe about the verses that DO talk about some being condemned to Hell. I accept I may have misunderstood these verses and that I may have to do my own study where thats concerned.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by genifer

I checked out that tentmaker sight Mammal-mamma and couldnt find a page that says what they believe about somethings I have questions about. Like the bible and what it means when it does talk about Hell. See, I have come to a place where I do believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. I read modern nkjv and niv and the good news bible, and well basically modern translations of the kjv. Just so we know where Im coming from. I mean I know, duh, so you all know where Im coming from, lol. I would like to know what universalists believe about the bible. I can accept that Jesus didnt go around talking hellfire and damnation everytime He spoke, but I think He did talk about the Narrow Way and that few find it. But what I do have an issue with is the fact that it isnt elaborated on whether Death is... the final judgement, so to speak, no chances after Death. Except the parable or story about Lazarus in the busom of Abraham and the Rich man who was condemned to Hell and actually regretted that he couldnt go back and tell his family. I will try to find these specific verses during my bible study this morning. But for now, what do universalists believe about the bible, is it Holy Spirit inspired, iyo? Then what do you believe about the verses that DO talk about some being condemned to Hell. I accept I may have misunderstood these verses and that I may have to do my own study where thats concerned.

The question of whether death is the "final chance" so to speak relates to the question of time. If there is still time after death, then a person could presumably change his mind and heart toward God.

On the other hand, if after death there isn't time (generally this has been the Christian position - time is part of the created universe) then there is no possibility of change after death. Just like the angels, there is one, eternal opportunity for decision.

If a person accepts this, then we must say that in the final judgment, whatever decision is made is eternal, so to maintain a universalist position, you would have to say that at that time, all people are judged for heaven, or accept heaven for themselves.

If you accept a kind of wheel of life/ireincarnation model, time goes on endlessly, at least for those who are reincarnated (not I think in between?) so they can always make another choice. But that works both ways, they can make a better choice, but they could make a worse one too, unless you find a way to get out of the cycle once you are perfected.

[mammal_mama]

genifer, the people on the tentmaker site all seem to uphold the Bible, but they don't interpret it all literally. I also read an article there were it talked about the word that was translated "forever" (meaning eternal punishment) was really talking about an age or a period of time -- meaning there are some Univeralists who believe God will punish some people for a period of time, just not forever.

I personally tend to believe Jesus bore our punishment on the cross already -- but I don't know if that means we'll all be equally-close to God; I tend to see the afterlife as a continuation of our journey and of learning. But I hadn't thought about what Meghan said about time ending after death -- does that mean the end of all processes, and that we're just eternally-set based on our last state-of-mind here?

I don't know, I tend to think there will still be room for growth and learning after death. I can't imagine God taking all that away.

genifer, I think there is an article on Tentmaker talking about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (you can google it in their search engine). One Scripture I've pondered a lot has been the "Many will say to Me Lord, Lord .... and I will say depart from Me I never knew you." Because it seems to be saying salvation is based on works ...

As in, if we let pass chances to help and show love to people in need here on this earth, then we didn't show love to Jesus and we'll go to hell. It seems very legalistic. And then He's welcoming those who showed love to others, even though they didn't believe in Him.

After much pondering, I've decided I don't think it means God will cast some believers into hell -- but rather that we are in for lots of surprises at the judgment. Some who thought they were very close will find they weren't doing what God wanted after all -- and non-believers will find they were listening to His voice all along.

So I don't see judgment as a place where God is keeping some of us and throwing some of us out -- but rather as a place of learning the truth about our lives and choices.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

I personally tend to believe Jesus bore our punishment on the cross already -- but I don't know if that means we'll all be equally-close to God; I tend to see the afterlife as a continuation of our journey and of learning. But I hadn't thought about what Meghan said about time ending after death -- does that mean the end of all processes, and that we're just eternally-set based on our last state-of-mind here?

I don't know, I tend to think there will still be room for growth and learning after death. I can't imagine God taking all that away.

I think though, that if we say that there is still room for learning and growth after death, we need to look at it from the other side. It would also mean that we are not perfected, and that we are still missing something that we could or should have.

I think it is had for us to imagine a state of not changing as being good, partly because of the language we attach to it - stagnant, stasis, etc. But God, on the other hand, doesn't change, because he is fully actualized - there is no potential he has that isn't fulfilled. And fulfilling all of our potential is what is supposed to happen in heaven.

Also, if we never stop processing, that implies that we never do fulfill our potential, even eventually in heaven.

[mammal_mama]

That's a good point, Meghan. So maybe it is just hard for me to imagine life without growth and learning. It's really impossible to imagine just WHAT eternity will be like ...

But I do still believe that what Jesus did on the cross, was/is sufficient for the whole world's salvation, believing and unbelieving. I will still save my child from harm whether she believes I'm saving her or not.

And no I won't force my child to come to me -- but I won't ever shut the door either.

[genifer]

I think though, that if we say that there is still room for learning and growth after death, we need to look at it from the other side. It would also mean that we are not perfected, and that we are still missing something that we could or should have.

Not necessarily tho, you see, bc God is completely SO very deep and unsearchable, that it will take an eternity to 'get to know him' so to speak... I wouldnt say we would grow 'out of sin' or learn from our mistakes or anything like that, but God's riches are completely unsearchable... in that you cant get to the bottom of Him. This is how I think of 'still learning' in eternity. Jesus died for our sins so that we can 'get to know' the Father... thru Him. I dont think this means that we will suddenly recieve all knowledge upon reaching eternity. Does that make sense? But I do believe that fwiw, we wont have all the answers to these questions in this lifetime, its still important to seek tho, I feel, and continue to grow. But then again the word does say that we will know him as we are known by him... SO, maybe scrap all that, lol... I havent got a clue. But this is part of what knowing Christ Jesus its all about! Seeking.... good stuff!

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

That's a good point, Meghan. So maybe it is just hard for me to imagine life without growth and learning. It's really impossible to imagine just WHAT eternity will be like ...

But I do still believe that what Jesus did on the cross, was/is sufficient for the whole world's salvation, believing and unbelieving. I will still save my child from harm whether she believes I'm saving her or not.

And no I won't force my child to come to me -- but I won't ever shut the door either.

This makes me think of the image of Satan in the Divine Comedy; he of course had chosen not to be with God.

Dante pictures Hell as being at the center of the Earth, with all of the world and the cosmos and even Heaven sort of pressing down on it, creating huge pressure. The people (and Satan) at the very center of Hell are actually frozen in a huge lake, unable to move from their place, because of the pressure. They are separated - have separated themselves, from the sourse of all being and movement, pleasure and goodness.

They are completely isolated from each other and from God, and have lost for themselves the power to move in at all. I think this represents the state that sin can lead us to if it is taken to its logical conclusion.

Of course the story is an allegory, and not meant to really represent what happens in Hell, or Heaven. But I think Dantes descriptions of how sin works on our mind and soul is a good one.