More Educated, Less likely to Spank?

[Super Glue Mommy]

A recent U.S. News and World Report article cites a survey done last year in which "41 percent of college-educated Americans disapproved of spanking, compared with only 20 percent of those who didn't complete high school.



I just read this is another article, anyone have the source? I'd love link to bookmark!

[joy_seeker]

There are always studies that show that education and other socio-economic statust influence parenting. I say YUCK to these statistics. Its as if they are implying that being poor prevents one from being a good parent. I do think that there is possibly some correlation to the fact that most people who are formally educated have been exposed to ideas and lifestyles apart from their own upbringing and therefore are more aware of alternatives (and also more likely to know what alternatives are most socially acceptable and in turn lie to surveyors but I digress). However I disagree with the foundation of these studies who choose to look at formal education as their only variable.

[Super Glue Mommy]

I haven't read anywhere that says its the ONLY variable. All I've ever seen is that they are saying some factors (such as this one) which make things statistically more likely. To me it seems like common sense that less education would lead to more spanking - the less you are taught the less you know - including alternatives to spanking and dangers of spanking. As you said, most people who are formally educated have been exposed to ideas and lifestyles apart from their own upbringing and therefore are more aware of alternatives. My personal experience shows this to be true - HOWEVER - that does not mean less education = less effective parenting. My husband is a high school drop out. He is very successful and never hits our children. I didn't finish college, but I knew I wouldn't hit my children from the time I was a small child - it had nothing to do with my education.

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by joy_seeker

There are always studies that show that education and other socio-economic statust influence parenting. I say YUCK to these statistics. Its as if they are implying that being poor prevents one from being a good parent.

I totally disagree.

The studies don't say that poverty prevents anyone from being a good parent. They do conclude that education levels and socioeconomic status influence parenting. I don't understand why folks are so offended by this. Why wouldn't those factors make an impact, in all sorts of ways? Not necessarily in every case of course, but in general.

[Super Glue Mommy]

exactly zinemama. I don't think an eskimo would be offended if a study showed that people who live in Alaska are more likely to get frostbite at some point in their life then people who live in Hawaii.

[flower01]

I think it's reasonable to look at these kinds of studies, you just have to be careful what kinds of conclusions are made. I didn't take one parenting or child education class in college so my formal education has had no influence on the ways I choose to parent my kids. On the other hand, because I like being educated, I choose to educate myself on issues related to parenting...which is how I found MDC, Mothering magazine, and all the other GD and AP related literature. So whereas a college degree might not actually affect a person's views on discipline, people with formal education are probably more likely to research any decision they make in regards to their personal life - whether that be related to finances, their views on marriage, and parenting, etc.

But, then again none of my friends (who all have college degrees) see the same way I do about AP...so I don't know if it means anything actually.

[Super Glue Mommy]

well put flower. the conclusion to this particular study seems to be only that college grads are less likely to spank then high school drop outs. We also know that young moms are more likey to spank (and being a young mom can cause one to be a HS drop out - so that there can be connected as well) of course lack of proper education in high school can *contribute to the likely hood of getting pregnant while in high school as well. Everything seems to be connected, no exclusive.

And, the conclusion here was also only that they are less likely. Yet still, the majority of people, high school drop out or college grad, are more likely to think spanking is okay then to think its not okay. Just there is a larger amount who think its okay in the former then the latter.

[cappuccinosmom]

My parents spanked me even though I was born after they graduated college, finished medschool, and were halfway through thier residencies.

Dh's parents didn't get through grade school. His mom spanked him. Dad didn't.

Perhaps highly educated people are more likely to be raised in cultural atmospheres that don't push spanking?

[Mama.Pajama]

I do agree with PPs in that college-educated people would be more likely to make an informed decision about something like spanking (or breastfeeding, GD, etc.). But that isn't what dictates everyone's choices. Every literate person with access to the Internet at home can look up information on the subject, and everyone without that option can get informed at the local library for free. People who are unable to get a degree (for whatever reason- life circumstances, money, etc.) still have just as much ability to be educated about these things as the college graduate!
So IMO, what this [the decision of parents to spank their children] really depends on is a person's thirst for knowledge: a person who is always searching for credible opinions and information will be more likely to make a balanced, well-informed decision than a person who doesn't have a questioning nature. Maybe if there was a way to measure this aspect of human nature, we could account for that other 49% of the college graduates, not to mention the 20% of the high school drop-outs.
The cultural influences are a huge part of the story as well, but that's a whole discussion in itself. These factors all work together to influence parenting decisions.

[Fuamami]

I wonder if another factor that influences this is that poor people feel more judged by their children's behavior? I've heard that as an explanation for why racial minorities are more likely to spank.

[joy_seeker]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

exactly zinemama. I don't think an eskimo would be offended if a study showed that people who live in Alaska are more likely to get frostbite at some point in their life then people who live in Hawaii.

Because no one is implying that getting frostbite is a lifestyle choice or making a judgement about their parenting skills based solely on one's intelligence. Formal education does not equal intelligence but that is the conclusion that people jump to when they read things like this.

An analogy closer to what this study implies is that more men than women understand complex mathematics. While the statistic may be technically accurate, because more men choose to study higher level mathematics, it doesn't take other factors into account such as societal norms.

Originally Posted by zinemama

I totally disagree.

The studies don't say that poverty prevents anyone from being a good parent. They do conclude that education levels and socioeconomic status influence parenting. I don't understand why folks are so offended by this. Why wouldn't those factors make an impact, in all sorts of ways? Not necessarily in every case of course, but in general.

I think in general is the problem. What is the purpose of these studies? What do the people conducting them hope to do with the information? Is the suggestion that formal education is the best way to prevent parents from spanking? Do they feel that programs need to be made availble to parents who are not formally educated that teach alternative parenting strategies? If so then do we exclude parents who are formally educated despite the fact that 59% of them still believe spanking is okay?

Another possiblity is that, since I am looking at this through the lens of a parent who doesn't spank, I have completely misinterpreted what the study was trying to show. Perhaps it is indicating that formal education makes us worse parents. Maybe the people who conducted this study believe that spanking is a good thing and that I am a weak college girl who doesn't have what it takes to be a "real" parent. Or maybe they have no bias one way or the other and were just interested (doubtful but a possibility)

I just don't find statistics like these useful in any way except to perpetuate stereotypes. JMHO

[octobermom]

I'll just give a general gut reaction form someone who does not hold a college degree and who untill very recently lived "below" to poverty line. I think being "poor" makes it harder..when for better or worse you are forced to relay on others for certain services you find your self eaither being told how to do XYZ ALL the time or you find your self questioning it. The WIC people who bombard you with paper work on how the lack of a flu shot is the quickest way to kill your kid.. the state sanctioned approved day care who inisits your child needs discipline and issolated time outs.. Grandma who watches little suzie every Wednesday-Monday afternoon so you can work telling you all she needs is a spanking. You see it more around you maybe because you end up surrounded more by youger more inexperienced mothers many times the opposite older grandparents who carry one the "older ways" often just overly tired and parents who are despertly trying and know no other way. I'll be honestly I have seen a huge diffrence on how spanking was viewed by the peole in my old neighborhhood (more uneducated and poorer) VS our current (more college degrees middle class) and while both deffently have spankers and non those with a higher education and more middle upper class do seem OVERALL more willing to go gentle discipline there more willing to say no this isn't right and aren't being told 6 times a day you don't know WE are the experts. SO no I don't think being poorer or having less education means more likely to spank but I have found the influcence can be there more. Sadly.

Deanna

[Super Glue Mommy]

Originally Posted by joy_seeker

Because no one is implying that getting frostbite is a lifestyle choice or making a judgement about their parenting skills based solely on one's intelligence. Formal education does not equal intelligence but that is the conclusion that people jump to when they read things like this.

1) education is no more or less a lifestyle choice then choosing to live in a cold climate is. Some people choose the climate they live in (or how much education they obtain). Some people have no choice (or feel they have no choice).

2) No one is making a judgment on parenting skills based solely on intelligence. nor would one be making a judgment on one getting frostbite. Just that certain things increase the frequency of other certain things. Not that all people who live in cold weather get frostbite (or all people who drop out of high school spank) Not that all people who live in warm weather don't get frostbite (or all people who go to college don't spank) It's simply observation that certain things are seen in conjunction with other certain things more frequently then with their counterparts.

3) People jumping to conclusions is not the fault of the people providing the information. If this is the case, we should have a problem with ALL statistics on EVERY subject. Perhaps some people do. I see it for what it is - two things that correspond with each other (HS drop outs that spank when they become parents) more often then corresponding with something else (college grads who spank when they become parents)


I think understanding all factors is beneficial in understanding what the "target audience" is when seeking to provide information to those who need it. in other words : knowing that statistically more HS drop outs will spank as parents then college grads will tells us that if we are going to drop off some flyers for free parenting seminars it might be better to hand them out at local teen hang outs instead of at the hard rock or starbucks.

[Super Glue Mommy]

Originally Posted by octobermom

I'll just give a general gut reaction form someone who does not hold a college degree and who untill very recently lived "below" to poverty line. I think being "poor" makes it harder..when for better or worse you are forced to relay on others for certain services you find your self eaither being told how to do XYZ ALL the time or you find your self questioning it. The WIC people who bombard you with paper work on how the lack of a flu shot is the quickest way to kill your kid.. the state sanctioned approved day care who inisits your child needs discipline and issolated time outs.. Grandma who watches little suzie every Wednesday-Monday afternoon so you can work telling you all she needs is a spanking. You see it more around you maybe because you end up surrounded more by youger more inexperienced mothers many times the opposite older grandparents who carry one the "older ways" often just overly tired and parents who are despertly trying and know no other way. I'll be honestly I have seen a huge diffrence on how spanking was viewed by the peole in my old neighborhhood (more uneducated and poorer) VS our current (more college degrees middle class) and while both deffently have spankers and non those with a higher education and more middle upper class do seem OVERALL more willing to go gentle discipline there more willing to say no this isn't right and aren't being told 6 times a day you don't know WE are the experts. SO no I don't think being poorer or having less education means more likely to spank but I have found the influcence can be there more. Sadly.

Deanna

Well put. Thanks for sharing your personal experience with us!

I grew up in a semi-nice middle class environment. My mom told me spanking was illegal though she did it anyway ( I had banked on this when I called the cops on her once only to find out its not actually illegal). I don't know if it happened more there then where I live now, but I know you didnt see it as much and it wasnt talked about as much. Now where I live spanking is obviously the norm. My husband probably has the highest income in the neighborhood, we could live somewhere nicer but we are comfortable here and it allows us to save money. Being in a lower income, definitely less educated neighborhood (several factors I will get into in a sec) I DEFINITELY see way more spanking and acceptance of here then I did when I lived in a nicer middle class neighborhood. The factors I mentioned earlier is the schools here have always be low budget schools with SEVERE budget cuts every year (this time twice in one year). The people who live here also have cultural differences, language barriers etc. However, there are free English language courses all over the place here, they only have to choose to attend. They don't even have to be legal citizens to go. also lots of free transportation options in the area, but I admit its a catch 22 because it might be harder to find out about these services if you don't speak english or know how to use the internet - which is what you would be trying to learn and need the services for in the first place!

[LynnS6]

With all of these, it's important to remember that correlation does not equal causation. A college education does not cause you to be less likely to favor spanking. It's merely associated with it.

So, the more interesting question is: What is it about the knowledge, culture, experiences or beliefs of college educated people that makes them more inclined to be against spanking than people who didn't complete high school?

And the disheartening reality is that the majority of both groups are for spanking (59% of college educated people and 80% of people who didn't complete high school).

[Super Glue Mommy]

well put Lynn.

and perhaps my title for this thread was not really accurate of my standpoint.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

So, the more interesting question is: What is it about the knowledge, culture, experiences or beliefs of college educated people that makes them more inclined to be against spanking than people who didn't complete high school?

Well, it obviously doesn't apply across the board, but my experiences with people I knew when I was younger lead me to suspect that there's far more correlation than causation.

I graduated, but only just, and my motives were...unusual. The vast majority of my friends never made it through at all. Most of those people were also drug addicts, alcoholics or sex addicts (one of them, at least) was all three. Most of them also came from severely dysfunctional homes (beatings, sexual abuse, and serious emotional abuse). They didn't care about their educations, and most of their parents didn't care, either. Their parents wanted them to sit down, shut up, and stay out of their hair. They didn't graduate, partly because they had no support in their home lives. I'm sure that lack of support also affects how they parent (the ones who do). It's not really about their education or lack thereof - it's about rage at life, in general, that's never been processed.

Of course, there are also lots of high school dropouts who don't have that kind of brutal home life, but, ime, the percentage of people with that kind of background who don't graduate is quite high. Plus, comparing high school dropouts with people who have completed degrees is self-selecting for a lot of things. Those who drop out (or barely make it, as in my case) are more likely to be lacking in general direction and goals, as well. (I'm 40, and still have no clue what I want to be when I grow up.) Those who have degrees are more likely to have a strong focus, organizational skills, etc...

ETA: It also occurred to me a few minutes ago that people who have more education are more aware of how many people don't spank and don't approve of spanking...so they're more likely to lie than someone who believes that "everybody does it".

[femalephish]

Originally Posted by zinemama

I totally disagree.

The studies don't say that poverty prevents anyone from being a good parent. They do conclude that education levels and socioeconomic status influence parenting. I don't understand why folks are so offended by this. Why wouldn't those factors make an impact, in all sorts of ways? Not necessarily in every case of course, but in general.

I think people get so offended because studies don't ever seem to say that less education/lower socioeconomic status influence parenting in a positive way.


I'm with Mark Twain (although he may have been quoting someone else); "There are three kinds of lies; lies, damn lies, and statistics."


ps I dropped out of high school

[Super Glue Mommy]

maybe this one is more up your alley femalephish

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_ml...722_index.html

[alexsam]

This is dangerous territory. I mean, it may seem innocent enough- its just numbers after all, but really, this idea and figure should not be taken lightly.

Education is linked with socio-economic status. The complexities that go into why people do what they do that have statistical correlations with these things are so difficult to sift out, not to mention emotionally and politically charged and often used against people in justification of why poor people deserve to be poor.

The question is not even "What changes people's minds in college?" because most people who go to college have led entirely different lives than high school drop outs. This result may not be connected to education at all (it could be more of a socio-economic thing, a maturity of parents, resources, relationships, etc.).

The trend for information consumption now, in this country, is sound-bite nuggets. "Over half of..." "Most people..." "Research has shown..." and we take these 1 liners without question. Say "White people have a higher average iq" and you have racist gold. It may be what the naked numbers say, but does not tell the true story. Say "Uneducated people hit their kids" and we all get to look down at them and shake our heads. But we don't know what the REAL story is.

After this great, big long post, I repeat another poster. I say YUCK. If the numbers show this, then so be it. But I am SURE there is more to the story and taking this tiny bit out of context can be very damaging.