Connected? People thankful for spanking...

[Super Glue Mommy]

There are a number of other possibilities in learning which spanking provides, none of which are intended by parents. The child may learn how to avoid successfully any guilt feelings for bad behavior by setting up a cycle in which the punishment cancels the "crime" and the child, having paid for his mischief, is free to repeat the act another time without attendant guilt feelings . . . The child who does everything possible to provoke a spanking is a child who is carrying a secret debt on the "sin" side of the ledger which the parent is invited to wipe out by means of a spanking. A spanking is just what the child does not need!
--The Magic Years, Selma H. Fraiberg, Scribners, 1959


Perhaps some people find guilt harder to cope with then physical pain, and for that reason they were glad their parents spanked them. They didn't have to develop a conscience. They could just "pay" the price for their crime. My sister and I talk about this because we grew up with the same mother, but her and I are 2 very different people - and my mom was aggressive with her (with me, she did more of the spank out of love because the Bible says so when I was younger... things changed as I got older, but the damage was really done the first time she lifted her hand to me) My sister on the other hand, would rather just get a spanking and get it over with and move on. Though she would never hit her own children, I think its for different reasons. This information from Selma Fraiberg really made me think though. Even with my sisters insight, it was always hard for my to understand why someone who experienced spanking wouldn't look down on it. Now I can see (one of) the reasons why someone may feel that way. They like their free pass from guilt. They take the spanking and all is "restored" in their relationship with their parent. They have gained back their parents approval and love. They would rather be spanked and freed from their guilt. Perhaps this is why when I speak to people in real life who are pro-spanking and think they got what they deserved and their parents did them a favor - a favor because they didn't have to feel guilt, they taught them how to not feel guilty instead of helping them develop a conscience - but these are the same people in my life I realize who even as adults never feel guilty. They are the ones who act "entitled". It's their turn to be one "in charge". So they did not feel guilty as children, and now they do not feel guilt as an adult. It's a whole other way of thinking that I dont think I really understood until now. I'm sure there are all kinds of things beyond and in between too of course.

[SquishyKitty]

I don't think spanking has to do with guilt. I think spanking is just a carry over from the past when it was an acceptable form of discipline. Hundreds, if not thousands of years of spanking or slapping or pinching children, has evolved into spanking and now is evolving into no spanking.

The justifications you hear and see (guilt, fear, the bible, whatever) are just a byproduct.

[ann_of_loxley]

Originally Posted by SquishyKitty

I don't think spanking has to do with guilt. I think spanking is just a carry over from the past when it was an acceptable form of discipline. Hundreds, if not thousands of years of spanking or slapping or pinching children, has evolved into spanking and now is evolving into no spanking.

The justifications you hear and see (guilt, fear, the bible, whatever) are just a byproduct.

I don't think she meant the parents spank so they don't have to feel guilt (in fact - I dont think she was talking about why parents spank at all)...I think she was talking about what the children learn (and dont learn) when they are spanked - such as not learning how to deal with their guilt or not having any guilt for their behaviour ('crime') as they saw the spanking as thier 'there, now you have been punished - get on with your life' - and, when growing up like that, are later thankful to their parents for spanking them (because they found the pain on their bottom easier to deal with than their feelings associated with that behaviour).

When talking about the reasons not to spank - we only ever really cover the fact that children don't learn to do the right thing for the right reason - instead, if spanked, they learn to 'behave' to avoid the painful punishment. I think this is going deeper though (this conversation here). I do think this thought is correct. I grew up in a very religious household (well - one of the households I lived in for some time - I grew up in foster care so lived in a few different households). It was the kind of household that had a paddle with scripture on it. Spanking was very much a discipline thing. Though it was never done out of anger and always done in a clam and 'loving' way - it did not teach me how to 'behave'. In fact, when I wanted to do something I knew I shouldn't, I would often weight up my desire to do such a thing to the pain my bottom would recieve if caught doing it. My desire would usualy win regardless of the punishment! lol It also taught me to lie better and get away with things better - so I didn't get caught!

Now - many of the children I grew up with ARE 'thankful' their parents spanked them. In fact, it brought back a lot of memories when I watched a documentary here (I think it was last year?) - called something like 'Parents who spank' in light of the (then recent) proposed 'spanking ban' law people have been trying to get passed (no idea if it has yet or not though!). Many of the families they showed were very religious families who practiced 'switching' a child from the age of 6 months. They talked about why they did it and the older children talked about how they were 'thankful' for it and how they would certainly use it with their children when that time came ()...

Thinking about it now...yeah... It did more damage than just what you saw on the surface (the simple fact, it didnt work - I wasnt little miss angel child all well 'behaved'! lol) ... I have serious 'feelings' issues - espeically guilt. In fact, when I felt I could have done better or 'behaved' 'better' - I often feel like hurting myself. I shouldnt have shouted at my son, I want to pinch myself or hit myself - pay the price for my 'crime' rather than face my guilt/emotions/etc. Perhaps my 'spanking' filled upbringing is the cause of this?

This is something I am working on. I am certainly not making the same mistakes with DS. This is why I have chosen to live consensually with him. I want him to do the right thing for the right reasons. I want him to grow into an emotional healthy human being with a mind of his own. This process has been a growing and learning process for me too. I am healing myself in a way whilst nourishing him.

[Super Glue Mommy]

yes ann you understood me correctly

I think not learning to deal with guilt as a child makes it much harder to deal with as an adult as well. perhaps that can account for people who "punish" themselves or seek punishment. Women who stay in battered relationship ("well, I did do this*") perhaps there is more to it then just associating love with pain. Perhaps there is also an unhealthy releif from guilt attached. As an adult we may feel more emotionally comfortable with someone calling us a mean name when we hurt them. Instead of feeling guilt we may feel we deserved it OR we may feel justified ("well they are being a jerk too") but either way we are skipping guilt. For some, perhaps those who also think spanking was something good that happened to them, perhaps it is easier for them to deal with physical pain then emotional. Perhaps we could even consider those who physically hurt themselves when they are hurting emotionally (I was a self mutilater as a teen)... we are handling our emotions the only way we know how. We don't know how to deal with our emotions, only how to deal with pain. Enough pain numbs the emotion... heck enough pain will numb the pain too - I often couldn't feel myself cutting when I used to do that. Obviously this is a very complex thing to consider and I am not suggesting it is for sure the way things are, but still something to consider. Selma Fraiberg in her time was able to make the connection that spanking could relieve guilt. I am wondering if there is a connection between that idea and the idea that maybe thats why some people are thankful they were spanked. They had "paid the price". The parents had their revenge and things were "even" now. Wrongdoing - pain as restitution substitute - forgiveness: Instead of wrongdoing - forgiveness - guilt - remorse - restitution:


I'm sure people don't think "Im glad I was spanked - I didnt have to feel guilty" And perhaps they DID feel guilt. Perhaps they didnt feel it all the times they would have otherwise, or to the extent they would have otherwise. Perhaps they felt guilt in spite of being spanked, but logically it was not guilt because they were spanked. I'm suggesting a subconcious thing taking place. Without realizing it, perhaps these people were glad to be free of their guilt via spanking, instead of having to deal with the guilt. It's two fold - we don't want to hurt our parents and we want to keep their love. But spanking can allow us to block out those thoughts during that time, lessinging the amount of guilt felt or relieving it altogether.

Perhaps a non-spanking approach is just another way to allow a child's healthy emotional development.

[laohaire]

I think this makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing.

[PDeverit]

Not all traditions created equal

I totally agree. Keep the good traditions, let go of the negative ones.

Child buttock-beating for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit.

Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing, and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit.

I think the reason why television shows like Supernanny and Dr. Phil are so popular is because that is precisely what many (not all) people are trying to do .

There are several reasons why hitting kids isn't a good idea. Here are a few good reads:

Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson

NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor, M. D. and Adah Maurer, Ph. D.

[blazer]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

There are a number of other possibilities in learning which spanking provides, none of which are intended by parents. The child may learn how to avoid successfully any guilt feelings for bad behavior by setting up a cycle in which the punishment cancels the "crime" and the child, having paid for his mischief, is free to repeat the act another time without attendant guilt feelings . . . The child who does everything possible to provoke a spanking is a child who is carrying a secret debt on the "sin" side of the ledger which the parent is invited to wipe out by means of a spanking. A spanking is just what the child does not need!
--The Magic Years, Selma H. Fraiberg, Scribners, 1959


Perhaps some people find guilt harder to cope with then physical pain, and for that reason they were glad their parents spanked them. They didn't have to develop a conscience.

I do not agree with the concept the authur or you are presenting. I think that a child that does not emotional develop feelings of guilt and or developing a healthy conscience come from many many different influencing factors from parents.

[KittyDanger]

I can't say what I would have been like if I had not been spanked since I don't know, but I will say what I can on the subject.

I was spanked occasionally as a child, usually in the top of the thigh just under my bum, because my pediatrician told my mom that is the best place to hit children :. When I became a teenager, I was very angry and very mouthy and received many slaps to the face. I can honestly say that at no time after a spanking/slapping did I feel sorry for the behavior that I was being punished for. I felt: hurt, angry, frightened....but I never felt sorry. I many have said I was sorry to win back my mother's approval, but I have to say that the physical punishment took the emphasis away from what I had done (in my mind) and put it on what my mom had done.

Sometime in elementary school I began hurting myself on purpose when I was upset...pulling my own hair, banging my head, punching myself in the thigh. In highschool I graduated to cutting, drinking and using drugs.

I won't say that all of those problems were caused by being occassionaly spanked, but I think that coupled with the other problems that were going on in my family it certainly led me to think along the lines of: 'This emotional pain I can not handle, but if I hurt myself I will focus on the physical pain and that I know I can handle', so instead of suffering endlessly in emotional pain I would act out physically.

I should also add that now, it takes a considerable effort for me, when I am hurting, to not skip the hurting stage altogether and move straight to anger. I make a concious effort to do it now bc living like that made me miserable, but I found that being angry was easier than hurting and for a long time that was my first reaction to any wrongdoing.

[Super Glue Mommy]

you have a similar story to me!! I think I posted about the same thing (self mutilation) in another thread...

[KittyDanger]

You mentioned it in your initial post here, and I think we may be onto something with this. Its very interesting.