Dogs and cesarean

[julie128]

I heard from a friend who's a vet assistant that even dogs are having c/s now. Apparently, some breeds such as bull dogs, have been bred to have such big heads that they won't fit through the birth canal, and they all have to have c/s. It's leading to the same problems we see in humans, such as placenta percretia and rupture. She also said that owners and breeders often don't heed the recommendation to have the dog wait a year before breeding again, so there are even more problems.

[ShwarmaQueen]

Insane.

[mirlee]

C-sections are used in delivery of animals. This is not news. I assisted in one such surgery in order to save the life of the mother and the rest of the litter. The pup that was to be first out of the birth canal died in utero. We were able to save the mother and 5 of the 7 pups.

[wombatclay]

Surgical delivery in animals (especially dogs) is not new... it's a very common operation and in some breeds it is the "normal" birth option. If you google "canine cesarean" you'll find a lot of information about it.

It is very different (IMO) than human c/s and vbac concerns since some animals have been specifically "designed" in such a way that vaginal birth would result in death for mother and offspring far too often. Actually, there is a fantastic lecture called "What would Mammals do?" by a local LC that discusses how vets assist in bonding between mother/offspring following these surgical deliveries. It's really interesting to me to see the differences between how human women and their babies are treated following a c/s and how their pets are treated... and as you can probably guess, the human women aren't getting as much support as their animal companions. It's an interesting lecture if you ever have the chance to hear it (she gives it at national conferences, LLL events, etc)

(for example, a dog may reject her puppies after a surgical birth so when she is brought out from general the vets at DH's animal hospital will often "re-enact" portions of the vaginal birth experience with amniotic fluid, the placement of the puppies around her, and massage to stimulate bonding).

[JamieCatheryn]

While it sounds like in this case it is true that adaptation has resulted in heads too big for birth in some dog breeds, I have also heard this argument about humans (notably from a bio anthropology teacher) and really don't buy it.

[mesa]

If you understand canine anatomy, you will see that the canine uterus is shaped like a "T", the trunk of the T leads to the vaginal outlet, and the puppies are lined up nose to tail in the "horns" of the uterus. All it takes is one stuck puppy, or one puppy that is too large to be delivered to threaten and/or kill the entire litter, not to mention the mother.

I would hesitate to apply human standards to dogs. It is not the same thing, although I agree that human interference in developing breeds has created a lot of the problems you see in breeds that routinely require AI and sections. This risk is very real, and is not dreamed up by money grubbing veterinarians. There is not a breeder alive that would prefer to section her dogs, vs. allow them to whelp naturally. The expense, risk, complications, chances of rejection, and health problems in the puppies related to sections are huge...any breeder would rather have naturally whelping bitches, trust me. It's just that some of our modern breeds require this type of intervention.

I don't have an opinion pro or con in regards to this issue...I have deliberately chosen breeds that are natural breeders and free whelpers because it is important to me. If I loved Bulldogs, I would have to change that POV.

Not that I have ever bred a litter...but this was a very real concern of mine when I was researching breeds.

[phatchristy]

Originally Posted by mesa

I don't have an opinion pro or con in regards to this issue...I have deliberately chosen breeds that are natural breeders and free whelpers because it is important to me. If I loved Bulldogs, I would have to change that POV.

Not that I have ever bred a litter...but this was a very real concern of mine when I was researching breeds.

Personally, I have issues with breeding animals to the point that they all have to be born surgically. I think that is something that a breed organization/breed council should think of long term. And, for artificial insemination...obviously that one seems even more logical. If they can't breed on their own to me that's pretty extreme.

Though you don't see this sort of thing happen in the cat world (which I am most familiar with), however no doubt certain breeds with larger heads do have more issues birthing. However you don't see breeders routinely sectioning each litter in advance. I once talked to one of the cat breeders who also bred dogs (and yes, a type that needed routine sectioning). For them they said they could try to birth naturally, however they viewed the cost as too high. They felt that financially they were better off sectioning, while they could potentially lose a puppy (puppies selling for a couple thousand they said) from a natural birth. However, they automatically sectioned...

But, it does kind of make you wonder why people would let the breed develop that way. Obviously it's only been the last few decades that this has been a reality. Vet care hasn't been around to this extent for that long.

[angie7]

I agree, this is not new news, it's been around a long time for certain breeds.

[Ola_]

I think the difference is that for certain breeds they have been selectively bred to look a certain way. I know some people even choose a dog based on a "big head".

The reasons for cesarean in dogs are different, I think, than in people. There isn't any of the vanity aspect to it and probably fewer pain concerns too. Plus for people breeding for the money, they are probably trying to avoid a section because of the huge cost compared to a vaginal delivery.

[mesa]

Originally Posted by Ola_

I think the difference is that for certain breeds they have been selectively bred to look a certain way. I know some people even choose a dog based on a "big head".

I see it in the classified ads for Labs and Rotties all the time..."block heads" etc...

[mesa]

Originally Posted by phatchristy

Personally, I have issues with breeding animals to the point that they all have to be born surgically. I think that is something that a breed organization/breed council should think of long term. And, for artificial insemination...obviously that one seems even more logical. If they can't breed on their own to me that's pretty extreme.

Though you don't see this sort of thing happen in the cat world (which I am most familiar with), however no doubt certain breeds with larger heads do have more issues birthing. However you don't see breeders routinely sectioning each litter in advance. I once talked to one of the cat breeders who also bred dogs (and yes, a type that needed routine sectioning). For them they said they could try to birth naturally, however they viewed the cost as too high. They felt that financially they were better off sectioning, while they could potentially lose a puppy (puppies selling for a couple thousand they said) from a natural birth. However, they automatically sectioned...

But, it does kind of make you wonder why people would let the breed develop that way. Obviously it's only been the last few decades that this has been a reality. Vet care hasn't been around to this extent for that long.

I would like to know if there is any real, feasible way to reverse it, though? I mean, is there any way to take a breed that pretty much HAS to be sectioned, and take them back in time? I don't know where I stand on it...I mean, Bulldogs are a wonderful breed, and I would hate to see them disappear...so what would the answer be? I'm not smart enough to figure it out, so that's why I have natural breeds

I didn't want to have to make decisions about cropping and docking either, which is another reason I have the breeds I do. I'm a wimp

[graceomalley]

This is not news - and it's something I fully support in breeds where free whelping is difficult or dangerous.

[SevenVeils]

Originally Posted by mesa

I would like to know if there is any real, feasible way to reverse it, though? I mean, is there any way to take a breed that pretty much HAS to be sectioned, and take them back in time? I don't know where I stand on it...I mean, Bulldogs are a wonderful breed, and I would hate to see them disappear...so what would the answer be? I'm not smart enough to figure it out, so that's why I have natural breeds

I didn't want to have to make decisions about cropping and docking either, which is another reason I have the breeds I do. I'm a wimp

Have you seen really old pictures of English Bulldogs or others which fall into this category (that being the category of breeds which require sectioning to give birth)? They look much different. They have blocky heads, but the heads are much smaller overall and necks are longer.

They look weird to me, but that is what a natural whelping English Bulldog looks like, I suppose.

[mom0810]

C-sections are the norm in MANY breeds. THey are commonly used and I had to rush a bitch in whelp to the E-vet for and emergency C section once. He first puppy was HUGE-- almost 2 lbs (1 is normal) and she could not get her out. Thank God the vet that happened to be there was also a breeder and she helped me PULL the puppy out after sedating mom.


It's not ideal, just like it's not ideal in people. But if it means live mama and live puppies, I'd do it in a second.

BTW, they cost about $2000-- $4000 which is why some breeds are so expensive.

[Girl In The Fire]

I just want to point out any breed of dog can need a c/sect not just certain breeds. It is common but not exclusive to certain breeds.

I would like to know if there is any real, feasible way to reverse it, though? I mean, is there any way to take a breed that pretty much HAS to be sectioned, and take them back in time?

Yes it is possible but the problem is people dont like change or being told what they are doing is wrong. Humans created these breeds and humans can change them. Breeds have changed dramatically in the past 20+ years . I have an old dog encyclopedia from the 40's many breeds hardly look like they did 50 years ago.

There are people out there that have worked to change breeds like EB's into something more functional. I am not talking about people sticking 2 dogs together and calling them "Olde" Bulldogs or whatever, but people who have worked for 15 + years with a specific goal in mind. One of these people has a line of functional working dogs that are free breeding and free whelping and have bred true for generations. His dogs wont be accepted in the AKC anytime soon and many would poo poo them as BYB mutts but if I were in the market for a bulldog I would go to him.

[mom0810]

Yes, any breed can need them... I know people in many breeds who, just like people (humans) do, schedule C-sections for their bitches because of show schedules, etc. They want to have a set time.

Or you have some bitches who just can't whelp naturally, or who have trouble with one litter but have a VBAC the next time... it's all just like people. Natural is best, yes, but not the reality any more.

Oh, and just to go off topic a bit here... AI's (artificial insemination) are waaay more common now and are actually done in lieu of "live" breedings more often than not. A lot of breeders just don't want to deal with the "dog sex", it's messy and a lot of dogs don't know what to do, anyway, and also with an AI you can check semen quality, look at the bitch to see if she is "ready," and all kinds of other scientific advances that we use now. When you have a stud fee that is very expensive and you want to make sure the breeding takes, you will do whatever you can. I usually do intera-uterine insemination, which requires the bitch to be sedated a bit and they go in with a scope and deposit the semen right in the uterus. It is much more effective, especially when doing AI's with fresh chilled semen, which is the norm, if you are breeding to the best dogs available which might not be next door. I will do a regular AI if both dogs are present, and that is much less invasive.

It's not the same old "put two dogs together and let "em go" kind of breeding anymore. It's way more scientific.

[mesa]

Oh yes, about AI, I was referring to dogs who simply CAN'T breed naturally

Austin actually has semen stored at a cryobank right now. And his half brother has 2 litters on the ground right now in Australia ....simply wouldn't be possible if they were bred naturally.

[phatchristy]

Originally Posted by SevenVeils

Have you seen really old pictures of English Bulldogs or others which fall into this category (that being the category of breeds which require sectioning to give birth)? They look much different. They have blocky heads, but the heads are much smaller overall and necks are longer.

They look weird to me, but that is what a natural whelping English Bulldog looks like, I suppose.

Yes, definitely there are people out there breeding old examples of many breeds...consider it this way, many breeds have only 'needed cesareans' for the last couple of decades. Natural selection sort of took care of extremes before. If a female didn't produce/didn't birth well breeders would spay them and they were out of the breeding program.

I don't deem this really as comparable to humans. What we see as a cesarean rate amongst humans is artificially inflated as well (defensive medicing fears, and also altered and unnatural birthing practices). Especially when you see like 1-2% cesarean rates at the farm...and look at the past rates. In the 70s cesarean rates were still about 5% here.

I speak as someone who frequents the other parts of mothering, and also as a scientist and homebirther who went into researching birth before getting pregnant. Evidence based medicine is the gold standard, and sadly is often not practiced in this country.

Natural selection really provided the best possible set up for humans birthing...it is human interference which has altered the playing field. Social and cultural factors are important as well.

As for AI....that's not done with cats. It has not been successful really as they are induced ovulators. So the queens need their studs!

[mom0810]

Oh, no, I didn't mean anything about your post, Mesa, I was just going off on my breeding tangent.

There are a lot of dogs (even in "natural" breeds) that won't breed a bitch the "natural" way... they simply sniff her, sit down, and look at their owner as if to say, "okay, it's time... get the glove!" I have owned a few boys like that. In some breeds, the boys are just so dopey that they don't know how or what to do... and when they try, if the bitch resists at all, they give up. I find this especially true with my boys that have done a lot of obedience. Any kind of correction, and they go, "okay, never mind!" Doesn't matter if the correction is coming from a bitch in season or from a human... it's all the same to them. It's just not worth it to them. AI's are just much easier, even in the natural breeds. Less muss, less fuss.

[she]

Ok, but doesn't collecting dog semen strike you as VERY VERY wrong? That's some fuss right there.