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When parents disagree about GD. - Page 2

post #21 of 39
I think for some people, hearing "Spanking is always wrong in every circumstance" can be too strong a thing to handle, especially if they were spanked as a child. Not everyone is ready to go through the painful reprocessing of their own childhood that accepting such a statement can require. Statements like that can also back people into a defensive corner, where they feel they need to protect their own parents. What I've found seems to work better is a gentler approach. I usually start by discussing specific situations. I ask them to describe situations in which they feel spanking is warranted, and then we can discuss the situation, the probable outcomes of spanking, and other possible ways to handle that specific situation. Some people default to spanking because they don't have any other tools available. If you can show them a better way, they don't necessarily have to agree with you that spanking is wrong. Just that it isn't the best way, at least for your children.
post #22 of 39
Some children would do better if their parents divorced - knowing that at least one parent felt strongly they didn't deserve it- and some the divorce would be worse then the ongoing spankings.

Another factor for me is that ALL spanking IS abuse to me, because the knowledge of child being spanked makes me physically ill and gives me panic attacks. So my husband would have to not only be willing to physically hurt my child, but also to cause me severe emotional damage by doing so. That is not the kind of person I could stay married to, but again, thats just me

also, society has changed what is considered abusive, so simply going on what the "mainstream" considers abusive is not helpful for everyone. It was once okay for men to hit their wives, now that is considered abuse. It is once okay for children to be hit with objects - now in some states that is abuse and in others it is legal. There are courts ruling that a parent simply "spanked" a child when the child is bruised from a beating. Where is this magic line between spanking and abuse? Even the law can't seem to determine for sure - but keep in mind that what is "just another discipline option" to some IS abuse to others. So to say "it would be different if it was 'real' abuse" isn't considering the fact that to some people, that is real abuse. To some people yelling at a child is abuse. In some countries, all spanking is illegal as well.

It's fine to determine that your children would be better off if you stayed married to the spanker. However, it is also fine for some of us to determine our children would be better off if they knew we do not silently support the actions of their attacker - someone whose actions may be no big deal to one person, but to us may be just a lesser level of abuse, but abuse none the less.

There is no magic line when it happens between spouses as to what is abusive. This magic line only exists in the parent child relationship, and no one knows for sure where that line really is.
post #23 of 39
And just like what constitutes abuse can be subjective, marriage is rather subjective. It means very different things to different people. A previous poster here said if their dh spanked they would fall out of love with him. To me, love is not something I fall in or out of- it is a concrete choice made regardless of the other person's actions, which might disgust me- but I still would choose to love them (even if I physically separated for safety reasons- I wouldn't necessarily choose divorce). I have a friend who has not chosen to divorce her husband even though he has cheated on her TWO times. They are not living as man and wife now, but she has some hope that he will get out of his midlife crisis and she can salvage their family because she has a lot of forgiveness and determination to stick to her vows. I don't think I could do that- but I certainly don't criticize her for her choice. I guess we all have different deal breakers in the marriage relationship.
post #24 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4inMyHeart3inArms View Post
elisabeth, would you stay married to your husband if he hit you for not doing the dishes, making his dinner, cooking his dinner, or doing something he didn't think was good wifely behavior? some people would and some people wouldn't - but I dont see reason to be 'upset' when people didnt. same with spanking children. it's not choosing my children over my husband, I just did not fall in love with a man who would hurt children, and I would fall out of love with a man who began to do so. And if I say to him "this is important to me that you don't spank" and he did it anyway, ten he has chosen SPANKING over his wife and family. I think that would make the decision to leave easy for me. I'm not choosing my children over my husband I am simply choosing humane treatment for every member in the family. you have to keep in mind that some people feel more strongly about spanking then others. My aunt was against spanking, but she let my uncle BEAT her children and abuse her sexually because she could not bring herself to walk away. I think it has too much of an effect to wait around for years that *maybe* my husband might stop doing this. To send the message to my children that I choose my husband over them to the point I will let them be hurt to be with him. However, the Lord spoke to my heart before I ever had children and I knew I was never to let anyone hurt my children in the name of discipline - the defenseless. Without me, my husband could take care of himself, the same cannot be said for my children. Just like I would rather be asleep in bed with my husband, but my children need to nurse at night, or me to lay with them in their beds sometimes. I'm not choosing them over my husband, but yes I am more responsible for their well being then his. And he is supposed to join me in that responsibility, not work against it. Some people, like the PP, feel this is something they are supposed to live through on their path in life.
This is a great post.
post #25 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma_unlimited View Post
If the issue is really *your child not being spanked and being treated humanely*, it would seem more effective, if you felt that strongly about it, to just shield your child and say "I am not willing to stand by as you spank my child, and you will have to forcibly and violently remove me to do it". Then dh would have to perform an act of domestic violence to get to your child and you would have grounds for legal recourse... but I dare say *most* people's husbands would not mess with a woman who went to that length.
If you divorced, left dh, etc and your state does not consider spanking grounds for not giving joint custody or unsupervised contact, your child would then be at your divorcee's mercy to spank all they wanted...

OP, it all boils down to who you are and what you believe is right for your family. Some people believe all spanking is abuse, and others feel it is can be a "less-informed, misguided" form of discipline. My experience as a child of parents who spanked is not what I would consider abusive, and I would have been devastated if my parents had separated over it- other posters have said they wish their mom would have left their father over it. It seems to be a subjective thing.

How do you feel your children are dealing with it?
The bolded part is exaclty what I would do.
This is an excellent post.
I would not divorce DH over spanking (divorce is huge to me and there is very little that would justify it). However, if he was determined to spank, my children and I would leave until he could learn better. Spanking is abuse in my book and I would not subject my children to it under any circumstances. I do believe keeping the family intact is important, but so is keeping my children safe.
ETA: I just wanted to add that DH is a gentle man and this is (thankfully) not an issue for us.
post #26 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4inMyHeart3inArms View Post
(..)So to say "it would be different if it was 'real' abuse" isn't considering the fact that to some people, that is real abuse. To some people yelling at a child is abuse. In some countries, all spanking is illegal as well.
Yes, indeed. I felt like repeating this. Spanking is very much real abuse. And, illegal here.
post #27 of 39
Quote:
I think for some people, hearing "Spanking is always wrong in every circumstance" can be too strong a thing to handle, especially if they were spanked as a child. Not everyone is ready to go through the painful reprocessing of their own childhood that accepting such a statement can require. Statements like that can also back people into a defensive corner, where they feel they need to protect their own parents. What I've found seems to work better is a gentler approach. I usually start by discussing specific situations. I ask them to describe situations in which they feel spanking is warranted, and then we can discuss the situation, the probable outcomes of spanking, and other possible ways to handle that specific situation. Some people default to spanking because they don't have any other tools available. If you can show them a better way, they don't necessarily have to agree with you that spanking is wrong. Just that it isn't the best way, at least for your children.
I agree.

I feel less inclined to be agreeable with people who view things completely black and white and are determined to convince me on their viewpoint; whereas an intelligent discussion of other ways to think about a topic generally inspires me to want to see different angles than the one I may have been locked into. My life experiences have been such that I tend to be turned off by strong or inflammatory rhetoric (I sound like Obama)- so whether or not spanking is "abusive or wrong" tends to be secondary to "is there a better way to handle a child's behaviour?" Kinda reminds me of childhood experiences with religion- was I more inclined to listen to someone who told me I was a sinner and would go to hell without Jesus, or someone who said "I have had these wonderful experiences in my relationship with Jesus, let me tell you about them"? Umm, definately the latter.

A person can tell me til they are blue in the face that all spanking is abuse, and I will accept their experience as yes- if you felt abused, you were abused. But, it will not negate my experience that I was spanked and felt no abuse. Is there a better way to raise kids? Heck yes! I think we ALL agree on that. That is our common ground.

How do we, and the OP, get other relatives or friends to this common ground of seeing the better way? Modeling better ways; sharing the ideologies we wish to hand down to our children and explaining how spanking would interfere with that; truly understanding where the other person is coming from so we know we are speaking to them on their level; prayer/meditation... any others?
post #28 of 39
Quote:
I'm kind of upset that most of you say that you would divorce your husband over spanking a child. To me you are saying your kids are more important then your spouse. Now, I am not saying that spanking it ok because I know it's not. However you decide with your spouse to discipline your children, you need to be on a unified front, not threaten to leave him.
What does important have to do with it? My husband is an adult and my son is a child.

You don't seem to understand. It's not a "threat" anymore than it's a "threat" that if a stranger hit my child I'd have them arrested and do everything I could to land them in jail. It just is.

And, as others have said, if my husband wanted to strike my child, he'd have to get through me first. That it would be better for my child to have parent who hit him while his other parent stayed silent is an idea I completely reject. Just as the idea that it's important to present a united front on hitting children is beyond my ability to grasp.


Quote:
I feel less inclined to be agreeable with people who view things completely black and white and are determined to convince me on their viewpoint;
So if it had been you your husband had been hitting, you would have stuck around and been less agreeable with those who view the issue of spousal abuse as black and white? If you're answer is yes, I'll tell you up front I find that difficult to believe.

I'm glad that you had a break through. That's wonderful. In my opinion, breaks through come a lost faster if a parent has to get through the other parent.

There are things I am very patient about. Someone, anyone, hitting my child or screaming at them is not one of them.
post #29 of 39
Quote:
Modeling better ways; sharing the ideologies we wish to hand down to our children and explaining how spanking would interfere with that; truly understanding where the other person is coming from so we know we are speaking to them on their level; prayer/meditation... any others?
Do not go along with calling it "spanking." It's hitting or striking. Spanking is a cutesy word that is used to minimize the act of an adult hitting a child.
post #30 of 39
I agree marriage means different things to different people. I was only speaking to the people who said they would only leave if it was real abuse - to remind them that to some people spanking is real abuse. (and depending on where you live, illegal)

I would stand by my husbands side on a lot of things. Depending on the circumstances, I might even stand by him if he murdered someone, and wait for him until he got out of jail. For other things I may seperate him without divorce, we could live seperately. For other things (perhaps other circumstances of murder or other acts of violence) I would divorce him.

So yes, marriage does mean different things to different people. But he would NOT be the man I married if he did some of the mentioned things. I could still love him, but I could not be in love with him. I know its cliche but its true. There are many people in this world I love, but they are not active parts of my life because of actions they choose to take that make it unsafe for me to be around them or in some instance to even talk to them.

But again, I think I was pretty clear that there are a wide variety of different options that would be right for each family here. I dont think staying married it the ONLY answer. I don't think getting divorced is the only answer either. It really depends on so many things. What does abuse mean to you, and what does marriage mean to you. Those are only two questions. There are so many other things involved, and addition to that many of those things don't have black and white answers. You can't know unless you are in the other person's shoes. I have stayed with my husband even though he has had an affair, which I am reminded of every year on my son's birthday because he did it on my sons birthday with my best friend. What hurt more was that up until that point we were very open minded and it would have been no problem for us all to be together - I had even suggested it. It told me he wanted her without me and that hurt. Our marriage suffered, but we did stay married. Some people would end a marriage over that. When it comes to abusers - yes, some abusers do change their ways - most don't. Emotionally, I would not be able to live with someone who was hitting my children. Not to mention I would block the blows and I know how fast things like this can happen so I am sure I would also be caught in the cross fire even if my husband didn't want to hit me.

To the person who said its not black and white, I very much so agree. It's not black and white. I am more likely to open my mind to people who are MORE open minded to me as well. Close minded view points will not open my mind. I find in general, people who don't spank are te ones who are more open minded to discipline options. I know some people will do both, but I think most people who have GD techniques that work won't resort to spanking. I like to think most parents don't like to hit their children.

Also, we know our husbands better then anyone else. Some husbands may respond better to a "you discipline your way and I will discipline mine" Such as my husband. The only thing I am not okay with is spanking. I really hated some of the other things he used to do, but he learned through me modeling gentle discipline what he could do and thats how he learned. I could not stick around through him hitting my children though. It may go on in another home - but I don't have to hear it, see it, or support it. it would be hard to know about it still, but not as hard. I could not function as a mother or wife if that went on in my home. I know me, and I know my husband. Luckily my husband is not into spanking, so that in particular is not an issue, but for our family its best for people to just say what is unacceptable. After several years of my husband using a certain word towards me during fights I just could not take it anymore. I told him we were done if he ever used that word with me again. He never used it again. You know why? Because he loves me as much as I love him. He knows something must REALLY hurt me for me to be willing to divorce over it. Generally, the fact he loves me is enough to stop him from doing/saying certain things, but we all get mad and say/do things we dont mean. For some, that is spanking. All in all mommaunlimited you have to realize you know yourself and your husband and your children and your life better then anyone here, and so you knew what would be the best course of action for your family. That does not mean its the best solution for my family, or the OP, or anyone else here. It may be a leap of faith for some to take, but it is possible that what is best for one family is not the best approach for another. For some family letting their children be hit for years until change happens is the right thing. I cannot accept that for my own family. For other families, who feel differently, the best approach is to be honest and say how they feel. (Of course those who stay married are being honest too, they just fel differently.) We are all being honest - whether we allow it or whether we say that would be the end of us. I mean, perhaps some people would stay marrid to a man who tried to kill them, I don't know. Maybe for some people nothing can stand in their way of marriage. That is an amazing marriage for sure. It's also an amazing marriage to be able to say "I just can't accept you spanking our children" and the other person to choose his wife and children over spanking. I can understand there is also a middle ground - the people who have it the hardest of all - who feel their husband would choose spanking over staying married to their wife and children.
post #31 of 39
Quote:
Do not go along with calling it "spanking." It's hitting or striking. Spanking is a cutesy word that is used to minimize the act of an adult hitting a child.
Now I thought that "spanking" was hitting on the butt for punitive reasons, and "striking" or "hitting" could mean anywhere on the body for any reason at all. Seemed to me to be a more descriptive term that gave a better picture of the action occurring. As far as cutesy- well people like Chris Rock in a comedy sketch or someone using it in sexual innuendo may try to make it sound cutesy, but to someone who grew up being spanked I didn't think it was a cutesy word- anymore than "time-out" is a cutesy word. Should we stop saying "time-out" and just say "isolation"?

Quote:
So if it had been you your husband had been hitting, you would have stuck around and been less agreeable with those who view the issue of spousal abuse as black and white? If you're answer is yes, I'll tell you up front I find that difficult to believe.
If my husband hit me and someone came to me and said "You HAVE to leave him" or "You HAVE to try to work things out", I would think to myself "Screw you!"

I would open up to someone who would ask me how I was feeling before offering their advice, and ultimately let me make a decision for myself. If they couldn't support my decision, that's ok; if they use guilt-inducing language to get me to think the way they do, it's NOT.
post #32 of 39
I dont think anyone said to the OP "you HAVE to leave him" (if they did I missed it) the OP asked what others would do in that situation and everyone (that I noticed) spoke for themselves. They answered the question. They answered what they would do in that situation or what they have done. Our answers are no less valid then yours. I don't think you said "you HAVE to stay with him" any more then we said "you HAVE to leave him"

I agree with the word spanking though. That word to me actually makes me feel more sick then the word striking or hitting because thats the word that was used to describe what was done to be growing up.

From an OUTSIDE point of veiw, I would support my friends in anything they do. I have a friend who is married to an (slightly) abusive husband and while I hate what he does to her I always tell her I cannot make the decision for her. She has enough people telling her how wrong she is, and I just say if she wants to leave I will make sure she is able to leave and has a place to go, and I tell her ways she can keep safe(r) through it all, etc. I suggested to her that she decide what her limit is and stick to it because things can happen in such a way that you don't really know how you got to that point - but if she wants to stay I will be there for her in any way she needs as well.

On the other hand, I have a relative who uses drugs who I will not support in any way unless he stops using drugs. By that I mean he cannot stay at my house, I am done finding jobs for him to just quit, I am not giving him any money or even paying his rent directly for him anymore. If he choose to clean up then I will help him get on his feet, but not before I see him do something to take care of himself first.

Perhaps I am a hyprocrite in that sense, that I would support someone's addiction to their husband even when its dangerous but not my cousin's addiction to drugs which is dangerous, but there are a LOT of finer details involved, it's not black and white. There is a lot to consider that you cant consider FOR the OP. We can share what we would do - but that can only be based on ourselves, our husbands, our families, and our personal beliefs. The OP can read the responses here and I trust the right option for her family will resonate with her.
post #33 of 39
Quote:
Now I thought that "spanking" was hitting on the butt for punitive reasons, and "striking" or "hitting" could mean anywhere on the body for any reason at all. Seemed to me to be a more descriptive term that gave a better picture of the action occurring. As far as cutesy- well people like Chris Rock in a comedy sketch or someone using it in sexual innuendo may try to make it sound cutesy, but to someone who grew up being spanked I didn't think it was a cutesy word- anymore than "time-out" is a cutesy word. Should we stop saying "time-out" and just say "isolation"?
You "hit" the nail on the head- spanking IS hitting. The word spanking does suggest where a person is generally being hit, although I would add that some people consider a smack on the leg or arm to be spanking. No matter what though, spanking IS hitting just the same. Using the term isolation instead of time-out is an excellent idea, as it would be an accurate description of the action in its punitive capacity.

Why is it that our culture is so willing to tolerate treatment of children that we will not stand for among adults? If an adult "spanks" another adult on the bum, the spanker will likely be subject to a charge of harassment at least and possibly assault. But it's acceptable for an adult to do this to a smaller person who has no defense against it? It matters not whether a mark is left, spanking transgresses the physical boundaries of the person being spanked, against their will and without their permission. Punishment that places adults away from others is called solitary confinement and has been shown to be among the most psychologically damaging of punitive measures. But isolating our children is okay?

I've known people who thought it totally not okay to spank another person's child, but spanked their own. If a person is willing to get creative and find ways to discipline gently without spanking and punitive measures with someone else's child, why would they treat their own child with less love and respect?

I like what a pp pointed out- that once it was acceptable for a husband to hit his wife, and I would add it was also once acceptable for a husband to rape his wife. It was once acceptable for children to be worked to death in factories in this country. The reason it is no longer acceptable is because good people stood up and said no more. While there may not be black and white, there are times when it does none of us any good to couch bad behavior in terms that make it more palatable so that we don't feel compelled to do anything about it.

Yes, the world is all shades of gray and not black and white. But there are times when a stand must be taken and if we mothers do not stand up for our children, who will? Think of how our communities and our cultures could positively change if we all stood up and said no more will we stand by while our children are treated as less than full persons. Change happens one person at a time.

OP, you have an opportunity. Ask your husband if he feels it would be okay for another person, especially someone who was in a position of power over him, for instance his boss, to spank him when he did not perform according to the rules? If he says no, then why is he holding his children to a lesser standard?

Also, if he insists that he was spanked and is fine, you could show him this: "I was spanked and I'm fine!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans View Post
I have a grandson and there is no way my son would hit him. I have broken the chain of generations of violence toward children in my family.
This is exactly what it's all about. Stopping the cycle. The above-poster's last sentence nearly brought me to tears. That is absolutely beautiful.
post #34 of 39
Thisbirdwillfly and likeminded individuals-

I am getting the vibe that you want me to share the opinion that "all spanking is abuse". I'm curious; why isn't it enough that I am on your side- pro-GD and anti-spanking? Why isn't it enough for me to validate your feelings- that you are completely entitled to feel and believe all spanking is abusive; why does it seem you will continue to challenge my experience and sentiments- of being an un-abused child who was spanked by loving, but MISGUIDED ideas?

I do not feel the need for everyone to share my opinion on such a broad forum, so I just don't understand it when I feel like others do (i.e., making flat out, this-is-how-it-is statements regardless of the fact that other people in the conversation have already expressed opinions that differ).

4InMyHeart3InMyArms-

I wasn't referring to what either side told the OP to do, I was using these statements (You have to leave him vs. You have to work it out) as illustrations because of the post asking me if I would feel disagreeable towards people who directed their "black and white" opinions towards spousal abuse, towards me.
post #35 of 39
mu, It's of no value to me if you share my opinion or not. You've confused having strong beliefs with dictating what others adults should do. My only interest in controlling other adults is making hitting children illegal.

I worked in the field of domestic violence for five years. I never, not once, told my clients what to do. I listened, I made referrals, I went with them to court, I provided educational materials if they were requested and so on.

Many, if not most, of my clients went back to their abuser after their first attempt to get out. I always reassured them that they could come back anytime, no judgement. And many of them did come back.

One of the reasons my clients trusted me is because they knew where I stood. They knew that I firmly believe what had happened to them was wrong. When/If they got past the phase of justifying/minimizing their experience, they knew for sure that I would stand firm with them. I had never been the person that had encouraged them to stick around, try to work it out and so on. Instead I had been the person who encouraged them to look deep into their own hearts, what did they think? Feel? Want? Often, I'd been the only person in their life who had ever believed them, validated their feelings.

But no matter how my client came to view her experience, I never waivered in the belief that what had happened to them was abuse. I advocated based on my firm belief that it is always abuse with lawmakers and with our local police/hospitals. At no point did it occur to me to adopt the thinking of the one being abused and help them to minimize the experience.

So it is with hitting children. Hitting a child is always abuse. Always. That the victim may not see the action/themselves that way is their choice. In the meantime, I continue to advocate to make hitting children illegal in this country. And I could not more be witness to one of my clients being struck but staying silent than I could witness my child being struck while staying silent.
post #36 of 39
Quote:
...Yes, the world is all shades of gray and not black and white. But there are times when a stand must be taken and if we mothers do not stand up for our children, who will? Think of how our communities and our cultures could positively change if we all stood up and said no more will we stand by while our children are treated as less than full persons...
Yes, this. Thank you for putting it so well.
post #37 of 39
Thank you for clarifying MU.

Thisbird - I agree there should not be exceptions for when its okay to physically inflict pain on someone against their own ill (regardless what term you want to use for it). I admire the countries who took this stand, and hope my own country will soon follow. For the record I did not take your post a trying to make anyone believe what you do, just you sharing your opinions and experiences the same as everyone else here has done. I hope you do not feel anyone was trying to make you believe you must share those opinion and experiences the same way they do.
post #38 of 39
4inMyHeart3inArms, Not at all. But thank you for asking.

Quote:
To the person who said its not black and white, I very much so agree. It's not black and white. I am more likely to open my mind to people who are MORE open minded to me as well. Close minded view points will not open my mind...
I see it differently. I see no virtue in being open minded on everything. Surely there are areas of no compromise in everyones life? It's just a question of what those areas are.

For different areas, we seek out different people. Am I feeling fragile about this? I'll go to my friend for whom this is not a hot button issue. Am I feeling an urge to change but am not there yet? I'll go to my friend who also made a long journey about this topic. And so on.

Ah, so it just dawned on me that perhaps another limit of this computer age is that those of us in different places and with different needs on a topic crash right into each other and we perhaps wind up feeling off balance and not understood. I hope I've not made anyone feel that way, truly, that is not my intention. At all.
post #39 of 39
see for me though, with spanking, I think that is a person being CLOSE minded. So to tell me I should be open minded to someone who spanks doesn't make sense to me. I am open minded, they cannot convince me to be open minded because I am *so* open minded that I can distance myself far enough from spanking to see what spanking really is. Where as a close minded person who spanks is too close to spanking to see what it really is. (if you put your nose to a mirror you will not see your face clearly. If the room (your mind) is open enough for you to take a few steps back you can see your whole face clearly - perhaps your whole body) A person who spanks is too close minded on the subject of discipline to open up my mind to the idea because my mind is already open enough that I can see the truth on it. However, I AM open minded to the idea they may not know a better way, and so I will teach them if they are willing to open their minds. If they see a better way and still choose to hurt their child then that for me is not okay. Thats what I meant by my statement, if it wasn't clear initialy.
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