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Dr. says alcohol while pregnant o.k.! - Page 6

post #101 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Erin* View Post
a glass of wine or beer occassionally is fine!! now, i see lots of pregnant mamas slugging back diet soda-that makes me nervous...that's some badness, diet soda....
The artificial sweetener I can't stand personally, but I had to have caffeine during pg with DS (couldn't stomach the thought of it with DD, and coffee, tea, and coke tasted like mold :eww!) because it kept migraines at bay. I hate when people say "no caffeine! I would switch a pg woman's drink to decaf if she ordered one!"

Without caffeine (not a lot, but some, about 1/month a giant tall cup o' coffee and daily a 1/2 cup or so), I would have been in bed for 48 hours without food, very little water, unable to care for my DD, totally dark room, with my head throbbing. Coffee was cleared by my medical provider, it worked on the migraines, and it kept me literally functioning. Decaf with all the added chemicals to decaf it would have been a catastrophe for me!

And anyway, caffeine may affect early miscarriage, and it may affect getting pregnant, but it has not been shown to cause problems once a woman is so pg that a barista could tell! (Migraines started mid-pg for me and stopped in the last month or two).
post #102 of 110
This is a great thread.

This reminds me of a shirt I plan to get when I'm pregnant again.

http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/item/no-idea-you-were-an-ob-womens-tshirt/111692587
post #103 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
I can't remember the symptoms of FAE, but I did read about it quite a bit a few years ago, and I do recall that none of the children of those women ever exhibited any of those symptoms.
The symptoms include any of the following, but are not limited to them:

* Small size for gestational age or small stature in relation to peers
* Facial abnormalities such as small eye openings
* Poor coordination
* Hyperactive behavior
* Learning disabilities
* Developmental disabilities (e.g., speech and language delays)
* Mental retardation or low IQ
* Problems with daily living
* Poor reasoning and judgment skills
* Sleep and sucking disturbances in infancy

As one can see, it is not easy to link the symptoms back to alcohol exposure in uterus, but outright denying that there is such a possibility seems strange to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Talula Fairie View Post
I gave you several links and examples, quite a few of them did in fact go over alcohol exposure in general, especially this one:
Thank you, and I did read them. But again, they are talking about FAS exclusively, it is just easier to analyze.

And this study is one study, there are others who show differently. I haven't read their methodology, as I have my life is busy right now.

Quote:
And I've yet to see people "damn" something.
I am not damning drinking alcohol, I am wondering about some of the arguments (no risk whatsoever from 1-2glasses a day for instance). Maybe I am also surprised as how many doctors advice woman differently from the official guidelines of their country. It is not my choice, but we are all grownups and make our own decisions from facts, feelings and experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by minimunklemama View Post
Seriously,how many women in Europe do you really know?
Many I left Europe about the same time you did. I have tons of family still over there, and visit regulary. I know people in Austria, Germany, France, Poland, Sweden, Netherlands, some in the UK and Portugal. I obviously haven't checked all their guidelines, but haven't found one so far, that says a drink a day is fine. If you find one, please post.

A lot of the old time attitudes comes from the believe, that the placenta is a barrier. For some substances it is, for some it is not, and for some it even enhances the effect of the substance.

But I agree, I shouldn't have put all woman here in one boat, I don't recognize many names around here yet, so a lot of opinions seem to blur together in my mind. I will try to pay more attention to the individual opinions represented here.
post #104 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by belltree View Post
T

Thank you, and I did read them. But again, they are talking about FAS exclusively, it is just easier to analyze.

And this study is one study, there are others who show differently. I haven't read their methodology, as I have my life is busy right now.

I am not damning drinking alcohol, I am wondering about some of the arguments (no risk whatsoever from 1-2glasses a day for instance). Maybe I am also surprised as how many doctors advice woman differently from the official guidelines of their country. It is not my choice, but we are all grownups and make our own decisions from facts, feelings and experience.

I did not claim you dammed anything. I said I HAD YET TO SEE (which means, I had not seen at this time) ANYONE damn ANYTHING. I wasn't even talking about you or any one person specifically. I was responding to the comment that said we have a casual attitude toward alcohol but yet "damn" chemical sunscreens.

Actually, you're wrong when you state that the links only deal with FAS.

Again, I will cut and paste from the following link
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Fet...lSyndrome.html

"A study of moderate drinking during pregnancy found no negative effects. The researchers suggested that one drink per day provides a significant margin of safety, although they did not encourage drinking during pregnancy. 5"

If you read the entire link, you will find references to studies that mention BOTH FAS *and* other issues. And the studies listed were not old, most were done in the early/mid/late 90s, well after the US had claimed any amount of alcohol was contradicted in pregnancy. A few references were as recent as 2007. None of the links were links that cited just one study, the above link cites 25, so I don't know what you mean when you mention "one study" nor have I seen any studies that specifically link light drinking to any form of birth defects. If you have one, please do link it.

Now, I don't know about you, but "no negative effects" to me, seems to mean, no FAS *or* FAE. I've never even heard of "FAE" and googling it does not turn up anything. I'm not convinced this is a widely recognized birth defect. Frankly, the symptoms could be related to any number of things, it would be almost impossible to pin something like hyperactivity or poor sucking problems to alcohol use when there are so many other causes. I think it's misleading and alarmist to make claims or even begin to indicate that light drinking in pregnancy could cause all those problems. There are no studies to that effect. I'm not outright denying that it *could* exist, I am merely saying that I have not seen evidence to that effect. When researching something, I find it's best to go with evidence based conclusions. Let people make their decisions based on the actual information we have, not what you think might be true. And please, if you are going to make claims such as, "And this study is one study, there are others who show differently" (indicating that light drinking has been proven to cause negative effects in the baby), you need to link to them.

No one is saying it's 100% without risk, there is no substance you could ingest in pregnancy besides food and basic vitamins that can claim that. Ultimately, it's impossible to prove a negative, so people can always be able to say "there is no known safe level of alcohol in pregnancy."

I'm not a drinker either, it's against my religion and I converted three years ago. I didn't drink a drop during my first pregnancy after I found out I was pregnant (I was not TTC at the time). My second pregnancy, I had one singular glass of champagne on New Years. Actually, I think it was more like half a glass. This pregnancy I had a glass of wine one time, for medicinal purposes only, when I was having a run of contractions that just wouldn't quit.
post #105 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talula Fairie View Post
Now, I don't know about you, but "no negative effects" to me, seems to mean, no FAS *or* FAE. I've never even heard of "FAE" and googling it does not turn up anything.
It might not be the correct terminology, as I read most articles in my mothertongue. Fetal Alcohol Effect (FAE) is usually seen as part of the FASD, or Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder. It is milder, but still exists. Another term used for a mild form of FAS is alcohol embryopathy.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_A...cohol_exposure) explains:
Quote:
Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE)

This term was initially used in research studies to describe humans and animals in whom teratogenic effects were seen after confirmed prenatal alcohol exposure (or unknown exposure for humans), but without obvious physical anomalies.[5] Smith (1981) described FAE as an "extremely important concept" to highlight the debilitating effects of brain damage, regardless of the growth or facial features.[22] This term has fallen out of favor with clinicians because it was often regarded by the public as a less severe disability than FAS, when in fact its effects can be just as detrimental.
Other information can be found here:
http://www.house.gov/pallone/fasd_ca...bout_fasd.html


Quote:
Frankly, the symptoms could be related to any number of things, it would be almost impossible to pin something like hyperactivity or poor sucking problems to alcohol use when there are so many other causes. I think it's misleading and alarmist to make claims or even begin to indicate that light drinking in pregnancy could cause all those problems.
I tend to disagree. Pupmed seems to find studies using FAE, although I haven't read any of them yet. Also, I believe, that things should first be proven safe; just because the link is difficult to prove, does not mean there is not link. And it just seems to make sense to me: lots of alcohol = FAS, less alcohol = FAE. To think, that less alcohol = no effect, when lots of alcohol = FAS seems contradictory to me.

Here is a study, that mentiones, that FAS occurs in 1/1000 births, and FASD is much more common (without given numbers) :http://the-aps.org/press/journal/08/26.htm. or http://www.cdc.gov/NCBDDD/fas/fasask.htm; which also indicates, that diet can influence the amount of alcohol a woman can drink without endangering her child.

I remember reading a study a couple years back, that showed, that for some woman very little alcohohl is necassary to cause FAS, for others it needs 2 glasses a day.

I hadn't plan to start a scientific discussion here, hence my so far more colloquial and anecdotal tone. To discuss this issue scientifically, I would need to invest much more time, which I don't have currently.


Regarding the Europe has less cases argument: this study, actually shoes, that it does depent on the European country: France's and Germany's rate seems to be higher, Sweden's lesser: http://www.springerlink.com/content/t7465q6r41162751/ The same book also states, that FAS rates have declined, because woman drink less, but milder versions are nowadays better detected, so these rates are higher. Also, only there is a very high number of undiagnosed cases.

Anyways, I do find the conversation inspiring, and I am learning more, as I read, but the more I read, the more I am convinced, that not drinking is the safer path.
post #106 of 110
Your first link was a study on sheep, your second link doesn't work. Your last link is not in English and is unreadable to me.

I never ever said that I thought 1-2 drinks a day every day was ok, btw. I actually don't consider 1 drink every day to be light drinking.

I am seriously baffled as to how you could be reading the things you have and come to the conclusions you have. I just absolutely disagree with the fear mongering "any amount is unsafe" line. OF COURSE no alcohol is the absolute safest, as I've said multiple times:

There is no substance, other than food and vitamins, that has been proven to be 100 percent safe for pregnancy. Some foods are not even always safe, think about all the posts we see here about listeria or mercury poisoning or too much sugar.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the symptoms of FASD. I still think that in the US where 90% of women get an epidural, you can't pin problems like poor suck on possible alcohol use. Hyperactivity issues like ADD/ADHD are at an all time high, at at time when most women don't drink at all during pregnancy, there are so many theories as to why, everything from vaccinations to diet to drugs in labor. Now, maybe if a baby had all the symptoms combined I'd be more likely to pin it on alcohol use. But several of the symptoms are just too vague to be able to link them to any one thing, especially if the baby only had one or two.

"And it just seems to make sense to me: lots of alcohol = FAS, less alcohol = FAE. To think, that less alcohol = no effect, when lots of alcohol = FAS seems contradictory to me."

Why is that contradictory? Anything can be bad if overdosed on. Overdose on food, you can get obesity, diabetes, gout, ect. Overdose on water and you can have a sodium and potassium imbalance which can even lead to death. Overdose on alcohol and you can easily die, whereas your risk of death is pretty much nothing (excluding people on medications or who have health conditions) if you had a small or moderate amount. Take a C risk medication in pregnancy just one time and you'll probably be ok, take it every day and you could be risking birth defects. Seems pretty logical to me. There are so many things that are fine, even healthy, in small amounts and unhealthy in larger amounts. That's why there's a saying, "everything in moderation."

I'm not saying that it would be impossible for a moderate amount of alcohol to cause FASD, I'm merely saying that it's untrue and unproven that *any* amount will cause FASD. And claiming so is nothing short of fear mongering.
post #107 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by belltree View Post
The symptoms include any of the following, but are not limited to them:

* Small size for gestational age or small stature in relation to peers
* Facial abnormalities such as small eye openings
* Poor coordination
* Hyperactive behavior
* Learning disabilities
* Developmental disabilities (e.g., speech and language delays)
* Mental retardation or low IQ
* Problems with daily living
* Poor reasoning and judgment skills
* Sleep and sucking disturbances in infancy

As one can see, it is not easy to link the symptoms back to alcohol exposure in uterus, but outright denying that there is such a possibility seems strange to me.
I believe all those things are linked back to alcohol exposure in the uterus. However, I've never seen anything - anything at all - to suggest that they're linked to light drinking. (I believe the OP referenced one drink a week!) I'll also note that at least half of those could easily be linked to having parents who were drunk a lot while a child was growing up.

Until this pregnancy, I've had a few drinks in every pregnancy. None of my children have shown any of these traits, except possibly ADHD in dd...and dh has a strong family history of that.

There has never been anything, anywhere, that suggests that occasional drinking is linked to these things, and if there has been, it's been well hidden. FAS is seen in babies born to moms who drink very abnormally, and FAE isn't something that happens in moms who have a drink a week. It just isn't. A drink a day? That also seems very unlikely, and nothing I've ever seen research to back up.

The thing is...there's so much hysteria here (Canada and the US) about alcohol and pregnancy that if there was solid evidence that really minimal drinking caused measurable effects, it would be plastered all over the place...and it's not.

What I find really laughable is that the more noticeably pregnant you are, the more dirty looks you get. I got glares from a whole table of people in a bar when I had a drink at 8 months pregnant. This was ridiculous, because a) it was mixed drink, and could easily have been a "virgin" version, b) they had no idea how often, if at all, I drank other than that day, and c) baby was only a month from being born, and most of his physical development was done. The buttinskies make me laugh, because the most dangerous time to be ingesting excessive amounts of anything, including alcohol, tends to be before anybody else can even tell you're pregnant.

Quote:
I am not damning drinking alcohol, I am wondering about some of the arguments (no risk whatsoever from 1-2glasses a day for instance). Maybe I am also surprised as how many doctors advice woman differently from the official guidelines of their country.
Many of the official guidelines of any given country are made for political reasons, not medical ones. A good example is the parental "we can't let our citizens make up their own minds" attitude of the US government (and the Canadian one, on many issues).

Quote:
It is not my choice, but we are all grownups and make our own decisions from facts, feelings and experience.
Yes - including doctors. They don't have to be drones, who just follow official guidelines. I'm glad many of them aren't.
post #108 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by belltree View Post
I tend to disagree. Pupmed seems to find studies using FAE, although I haven't read any of them yet. Also, I believe, that things should first be proven safe; just because the link is difficult to prove, does not mean there is not link. And it just seems to make sense to me: lots of alcohol = FAS, less alcohol = FAE. To think, that less alcohol = no effect, when lots of alcohol = FAS seems contradictory to me.
Why not? Too much iron is bad for the human body - but not enough iron is bad for the human body, too. A woman in the US died last year, from drinking too much water. Since too much water can be fatal, does that mean we should stop drinking water entirely, as it's obviously dangerous. Ingesting too much of almost anything can have negative health effects, even if it's something not only neutral, but [i]necessary[/] to survival.

Quote:
Here is a study, that mentiones, that FAS occurs in 1/1000 births, and FASD is much more common (without given numbers) :http://the-aps.org/press/journal/08/26.htm. or http://www.cdc.gov/NCBDDD/fas/fasask.htm; which also indicates, that diet can influence the amount of alcohol a woman can drink without endangering her child.
While there are always exceptions, most women I've known with a truly cavalier attitude about alcohol in pregnancy (and by cavalier, I do not mean "I've researched it and I'm okay with 3-4 drinks/week," or
"my doctors said a drink a week is okay"), have had some other issues...often including a very poor diet.

Quote:
I remember reading a study a couple years back, that showed, that for some woman very little alcohohl is necassary to cause FAS, for others it needs 2 glasses a day.
I've never come across this before, and have never seen anything close to FAS in women who drink lightly. I'd like to see that study, because I strongly suspect there's a lot of missing data there...nutritional deficiencies, other drug use, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talula Fairie View Post
OF COURSE no alcohol is the absolute safest, as I've said multiple times:
You know...I'm not even sure I completely agree with this. I think it's probably at least partly situational. Very high levels of maternal stress aren't good for the baby, either, and I suspect that, at least in some cases, the benefits derived from alcohol's relaxing effects outweighs any possible risks from very light exposure. Mind you, I'd guess that studying something that subtle would be almost impossible.

Quote:
There is no substance, other than food and vitamins, that has been proven to be 100 percent safe for pregnancy.
If we're going to extremes, I'm sure even food and vitamins aren't safe, in excess. (See my above comment about too much water.)

Quote:
Some foods are not even always safe, think about all the posts we see here about listeria or mercury poisoning or too much sugar.
Yeah...even food can be scary, without even over-indulging.

Quote:
We'll have to agree to disagree on the symptoms of FASD. I still think that in the US where 90% of women get an epidural, you can't pin problems like poor suck on possible alcohol use.
My sister's oldest was repeatedly blood-tested, and the hospital staff refused to tell her why. He was premature, and had the shakes, and they were convinced (largely because of her tattoos, I suspect) that my sister had been doing drugs while pregnant. That's what they were testing for, even after her GP made it clear that my sister had had regular prenatal care and was not on drugs of any kind. They apparently gave my sister Demerol while in labour, and the GP suspects the shakes were drug withdrawal...but withdrawal from drugs administered by the same staff doing the blood tests!

Quote:
Why is that contradictory? Anything can be bad if overdosed on. Overdose on food, you can get obesity, diabetes, gout, ect. Overdose on water and you can have a sodium and potassium imbalance which can even lead to death. Overdose on alcohol and you can easily die, whereas your risk of death is pretty much nothing (excluding people on medications or who have health conditions) if you had a small or moderate amount. Take a C risk medication in pregnancy just one time and you'll probably be ok, take it every day and you could be risking birth defects. Seems pretty logical to me. There are so many things that are fine, even healthy, in small amounts and unhealthy in larger amounts.
Oops - guess I should have read your whole post before replying. You said it much better than I did!
post #109 of 110
That's a good point about a small amount of alcohol being relaxing and actually beneficial because stress isn't great for the baby either. However, I don't think that has anything to do with whether alcohol is 'safe' per se, just a case of the benefits outweighing the risks.

Like I was saying earlier, no one is ever going to be able to say with certainty this or that substance is 100% safe. So people will always be able to claim staying away from this or that is the 'safest' route.

I see we had the same thoughts about too much of a good thing

And, FTR...I do think that an occasional drink is fine in pregnancy. Daily drinking and binge drinking, no. But like you pointed out, there actually are not any studies that prove even 1 drink a day is unsafe; I still would probably err on the side of caution for that one though. I don't have a specific number I think people should keep it under per week...I think that probably varies per person anyway.
post #110 of 110
I can't imagine drinking one drink a day, anyway. I'm obese, and not interested in putting on too much when I'm pregnant (my weight gain has consistently been under 30 pounds, and usually close to 20). So, if nothing else, I'd avoid drinking that much, so I wasn't taking in too many empty calories.
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