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Dr. says alcohol while pregnant o.k.! - Page 4

post #61 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quindin View Post
Actually, the SIL midwife I told about earlier (who tells her patients to have a glass of wine to relax if needed), is Danish.
Other midwives there told me the same.

I had my first 2 children in Denmark, and while it is true that they differ from other European countries when it comes to recommendation for alcohol abstinence, it is mostly referred to the first trimester. And there is not AT ALL the same "pregnancy police" mentality they have in the US.

And no, it was not strange to see pregnant women drinking the occasional wine, and most people were surprised when I would say "no thanks" to a glass.
Yeah, Denmark is probably like that. They have a completely different attitude to alcohol than other Scandinavian/Northern European countrys. The Denish drink alcohol with their breakfast, lunch and tea. Younger people are allowed to buy alcohol than where I live.
But in my Northern European/Scandinavian country, and our neighbour countrys there is absolutely a no-alcohol during pregnancy policy and norm, and nobody does it. No midwife/doc/nurse/other health care provider would tell you that it's ok here, they're not even allowed too. People who drink and smoke during their pregnancy here are actually look at as less educated and probably a bit stupid, and taking risks and not wanting the best for their babies. It's pretty harsh actually. If you do drink/smoke when pregnant here you have to expect people to comment, be rude and mean to you about it, not only healthcare providers, but also strangers. (Kinda like with smoking around kids/inside a house with kids.)

(I'm not saying I think it should be like that, btw, that you have to accept rudeness. But I think the no-alcohol and no smoking during pregnancy and nursing (and no smoking around kids/inside/inside public places, the last one actually being a law) policys/norms we have here are really great.)
post #62 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixiekisses View Post
There's a language barrier here. Do you know any languages other than english? I have to see if I can find anything, because what I've read is not in english, or I have to translate it.
No. I only speak English. If you are able to find anything, that's great, but you certainly don't need to go to the hassle of translating!
post #63 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixiekisses View Post
Yeah, Denmark is probably like that. They have a completely different attitude to alcohol than other Scandinavian/Northern European countrys. The Denish drink alcohol with their breakfast, lunch and tea. Younger people are allowed to buy alcohol than where I live.
But in my Northern European/Scandinavian country, and our neighbour countrys there is absolutely a no-alcohol during pregnancy policy and norm, and nobody does it. No midwife/doc/nurse/other health care provider would tell you that it's ok here, they're not even allowed too. People who drink and smoke during their pregnancy here are actually look at as less educated and probably a bit stupid, and taking risks and not wanting the best for their babies. It's pretty harsh actually. If you do drink/smoke when pregnant here you have to expect people to comment, be rude and mean to you about it, not only healthcare providers, but also strangers. (Kinda like with smoking around kids/inside a house with kids.)

(I'm not saying I think it should be like that, btw, that you have to accept rudeness. But I think the no-alcohol and no smoking during pregnancy and nursing (and no smoking around kids/inside/inside public places, the last one actually being a law) policys/norms we have here are really great.)
So, do the Danish have a considerably higher number of serious birth defects, lower IQs, health problems, etc. than people in your country? What are the visible, proven, effects of all this drinking?

I truly would be interested to see a single proven risk of having an occasional drink during pregnancy. (I'll admit that with "breakfast, lunch and tea" is not what I - or anybody else I've ever met - would call "occasional drinking".) I've never seen one - not ever. Despite the "no alcohol at all" advice, I've never even seen a suggestion of what I could do to my baby by having a drink.
post #64 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by nerin View Post
my sister in law is pregnant for the first time and was told by her OB that she could have up to 4 oz of wine a day! i was less shocked that she was told that some wine was OK and more by the audacity of the OB to give her a definite number that was safe, you know? like, instead of giving her a vague "ok occasionally" he had given her a proven statistic or a rule that she could follow and be totally safe..... i just found that really misleading and very suspect!
I just want to point out that the main reason I would guess that this Doctor chose to give her that number is to point out that he is allowing a glass of wine a day, 4oz is actually under the standard of 5 oz that is considered a glass of wine (for studies and standards in the wine industries).

I would figure the Doctor chose to mention this amount, instead of just saying "a glass" because it is specific. I have seen for example on the coffee thread some pretty wide variances to what people think is a cup of coffee, I have seen the same for "what is a glass of water" and clearly he wanted to remove that variance.

I also want to point out that I have heard that some doctors/midwives advise a glass of wine a day to help with preterm labor in the second and third trimesters.
I want to agree with one of the links posted you can not scientifically prove a negative, it is not the way studies work. It's also rarely the way life works. You can prove conclusions, but without the ability to remove variances it often becomes very difficult to see results. Because of safety laws and moral laws it will always be very hard to have definitive test results when dealing with pregnancy the way we currently do studies.

I also want to mention historical evidence again. I noticed some one brought up women smoking and pregnancy and tried to say this was expectable for 100's of years. I want to argue that in fact in many European and American Societies this is not true at all! Smoking was almost exclusively seen as a man's habit and was considered socially unacceptable for women.

In fact women started to smoke in the 20's because it was seen as something that "proper women" would never do, these women pulled out the smokes and threw out their corsets to be seen as young and modern! Then with the war in most allied nations things changed and it was seen as a women's duty not to smoke so their ration of cigarettes could go to the soldiers out on the field. Many women gave up smoking for the men. More women smoke/smoked in the last 30+ years then in most of the past so it really isn't something that has a huge historical tie and yes studies do show it's bad for the mother and child. I am not saying smoking cigarettes is good in pregnancy I am saying to use it to compared to historical drinking it is just a very poor comparison.

Drinking in past cultures though is a historical truth. In many cultures poor water conditions made it important to drink alcohol for lack of other options (especially since they did not follow our current tradition of adults drinking animal milks). There is a difference in the alcohol content of their spirits to ours but they did drink them very regularly. Remember with out refrigeration and modern techniques almost all fruit juices would have fermented and become alcoholic. Overall these cultures do not show higher issues over centuries of alcohol use.

But there are some cultures that do not have historical traditions with drinking, these cultures tend to show more issues because of the lack of enzymes built from generational drinking. These people should watch drinking over all not just in pregnancy. But that is a whole other discussion.

Again I bring this up so we can more honestly compare past and present societal trends.
post #65 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
So, do the Danish have a considerably higher number of serious birth defects, lower IQs, health problems, etc. than people in your country? What are the visible, proven, effects of all this drinking?

I truly would be interested to see a single proven risk of having an occasional drink during pregnancy. (I'll admit that with "breakfast, lunch and tea" is not what I - or anybody else I've ever met - would call "occasional drinking".) I've never seen one - not ever. Despite the "no alcohol at all" advice, I've never even seen a suggestion of what I could do to my baby by having a drink.
One small comment, when dealing with some cultures were people do drink with all three meals, you must take into consideration that many of these people do not drink wine straight. Most will add a seltzer, water, or even cola to wine drunk with meals. I know that this is something that is fairly common in Spain and in other countries. So many of these people may actually be drinking less then the excepted 1 5oz glass daily but may be spreading it out over the day.
post #66 of 110
:

Pixiekisses, are you for real? You are joking right?
The Danish drink alcohol "for breakfast, lunch and dinner" ???
What in the world!
I read this to DH (who is Danish) and he is laughing, because the Danes actually have lots of jokes about drunk Swedes and Finns. Might you not have bought into the "drunk myths against fellow Scandinavian" just like many Danes have about their fellow northern friends?

No, there is NOT AT ALL a drinking culture like that in Denmark!
I don't know what circles you have been to, but normal Danes have a very sensible and moderate attitude towards alcohol!
Boy, if I were a Dane I would have been very upset with your posts... Then again, maybe I wouldn't because they are so relaxed and easy going that I might have just laughed like DH has!

Stormbride,
No, DH FAS rates are not higher than those of other European countries. The birth stats of babies there is actually one of the best in the world.
post #67 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quindin View Post
:

Pixiekisses, are you for real? You are joking right?
The Danish drink alcohol "for breakfast, lunch and dinner" ???
Ehm, yeah, I actually figured people would get that I was putting it in an extreme way to get my point across. Of course all Denish people don't, and spesifically when pregnant I would hope. But, they do have a completely different drinking culture than we do. They drink more, it's more common and accepted to drink whenever, and younger people are allowed to drink and buy alcohol than here.

Storm Bride, I'll get back to you after looking for something in english if I can find it.
post #68 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by BekahMomToOliver View Post
Honestly, I'd be alot more worried about what it is I'm eating on a regular basis than the occasional glass of wine.
I agree. But my conclusions is not to just go ahead and drink alcohol on a regular basis, and in my opinion some of the amounts mentioned here are not small (2glasses a day???). I read and learned and try to avoid all sorts of things. It is not a hassle for me, as we have lived such a lifestyle for a longtime now. I also don't miss not having alcohol. I find it absurd, that people actually claim to be healthier by drinking alcohol regularly. I never drank much in my life - a drink a month is about what I used to have, not having it, doesn't seem to impact my life at all. If you really think that red wine is so helpful, why not switch to reservatrol supplements or eat red grapes? People don't eat massive amounts of mercury contaminated fish to get the omega3s. There are other ways to get those.

The thing with FAS is, that it is very easy to proof if the symptoms are very extreme. Any mild cases are almost impossible to link directly to alcohol.
post #69 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixiekisses View Post
They drink more, it's more common and accepted to drink whenever, and younger people are allowed to drink and buy alcohol than here.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree then...
We have LOTS of friends in Sweden, and have been there many times. They themselves say that it is much more common to see people going overboard with their drinking in Sweden (as in, drinking until they fall over) than in Denmark.

Anyway, I don't want to start an international debate
post #70 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quindin View Post
We have LOTS of friends in Sweden, and have been there many times. They themselves say that it is much more common to see people going overboard with their drinking in Sweden (as in, drinking until they fall over) than in Denmark.
I know the prejudice of the crazily drinking Skandinavians as well. I have never heard of it to be limited to either Denmark or Sweden, Finland or Norway But it is just that a prejudice. Also, just because young people drink a lot does not imply that pregnant woman will do so as well.

Having lived for most of my life in Europe, I am actually amazed that so many Americans assume, that drinking during pregnancy is perfectly acceptable in Europe. From my experience, it is not.
post #71 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quindin View Post
Well, we will have to agree to disagree then...
We have LOTS of friends in Sweden, and have been there many times. They themselves say that it is much more common to see people going overboard with their drinking in Sweden (as in, drinking until they fall over) than in Denmark.

Anyway, I don't want to start an international debate
Funny thing...I have a few British/Irish/Scottish friends and they all SWEAR that Americans are all drinking like mad and spending their entire days at Native American casinos. :
post #72 of 110
Personally, I don't drink during pregnancy. My OB is very cautious and says no alcohol during pregnancy. Every doctor I've went to has said no alcohol. Since no amount of alcohol has been proven safe during pregnancy, I'd rather just stay away from it completely.
post #73 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlize View Post
Personally, I don't drink during pregnancy. My OB is very cautious and says no alcohol during pregnancy. Every doctor I've went to has said no alcohol. Since no amount of alcohol has been proven safe during pregnancy, I'd rather just stay away from it completely.
That's the typical US line and it's not quite true. In Europe, it's more common for a pregnant woman to drink very lightly, and their FAS rates are lower than the US. It's been pretty well established that regular binge drinking (meaning more than 3 drinks at a time) is what causes FAS.

It's just like with medications. There is no study proving without a doubt that Tylenol, for instance, is safe for pregnancy. There has never been a double blind study on pregnant women (this is true for pretty much all drugs), the liability is too high. But yet it's widely regarded as safe. Technically, all we have are some animal studies proving that it didn't cause birth defects in animals, and no case reports of it causing birth defects in humans.

It may be true that no amount has been proven safe but it's only true because no one wants to do that kind of study on pregnant women. And there's no money to be made from such a study. It should also be noted that it hasn't been proven to be UNSAFE in smaller amounts, either. Ultimately, there is no drug or substance (other than food/vitamins) proven to be safe for pregnancy.

I'm not a drinker either, but I think people should look on both sides of this issue. Alcohol even has medicinal value in pregnancy, for example, it can sometimes stop contractions.
post #74 of 110
I have a glass of wine here and there.
post #75 of 110
I actually craved alcohol during pregnancy lol.



But I don't believe I caved in to more than a couple sips here and there. It's not a deference to the American pregnancy phobia but more that I don't drink much alcohol at all.

Although recently I have been craving Miller lite...which I have never even drank up until last week....might be time for me to POAS! :
post #76 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quindin View Post
Well, we will have to agree to disagree then...
We have LOTS of friends in Sweden, and have been there many times. They themselves say that it is much more common to see people going overboard with their drinking in Sweden (as in, drinking until they fall over) than in Denmark.
I don't live in Sweden.
post #77 of 110
Just jumping in to say the only time I've ever CRAVED a beer is when I'm pregnant. So I have one, and I enjoy it

I've never binged or anything, but just like everything else, moderation is common sense!
post #78 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talula Fairie View Post
That's the typical US line and it's not quite true. In Europe, it's more common for a pregnant woman to drink very lightly, and their FAS rates are lower than the US.
I really wonder, where people get this information from. I don't know a single woman in Europe, that has been pregnant in the last 10 years, that drank during her pregnancy. Also, the standard guidelines in most (all?) European countries advice against drinking any alcohol during pregnancy.

Also, could you point me to the study you are referring to, that states, that European's have a lower FAS rate. And even if it is not FAS what are the rates for FAE?
post #79 of 110
Well, to be fair, no one really knows with absolute certainty what the rates are exactly.

A simple google turned up:

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/f/feta...ts-country.htm (it appears to me that Europe and the US's rates are relatively close in this link, but I was doing the math myself and getting numbers totally different than 1 in 100 to 1 in 1000 like many of the studies say the US rate is, so if you can make heads or tails of those stats, let me know).


http://depts.washington.edu/fadu/FASEur.html (this link mentions that the 12% of Europeans consume 50% of the world's alcohol, though it was a bit tl:dr so I didn't go over it carefully)

http://depts.washington.edu/fadu/incidence.pdf (another one that is a bit tl:dr). I found this part interesting, though it's an older study:

Among all births in Go¨teborg, Sweden, from May
1977 until November 1987 (,7,600), 12 cases were
diagnosed FAS using the U.S. criteria (Olegård et al.,
’79). Newborns were admitted to one of two neonatal
units staffed by a group that included a research team
carrying out a series of prenatal alcohol studies. The
rate of identified cases at birth (considered by the
authors to be likely an underestimate) was 1.6/1,000.

It has a huge section on US studies with varying rates and is written in a way that's hard to discern, I did find this though:

One would then
expect a full screening to have found (204/102) times as
many cases, or 4 per 1,439 live births, an incidence of
2.8 per 1,000.

If you want to know more I suggest doing more research yourself.
post #80 of 110
Btw, I would just like to make it really clear that I am not advocating regular drinking in pregnancy. I am simply saying that the occasional drink has not been proven to be unsafe. There's a big difference between having one drink a few times in your pregnancy and drinking several drinks a day.

As for the European vs US thing, I only know what I have read here from multiple people. Perhaps it's another MDC wives tale. It did appear to be supported upon researching it, but I honestly don't care enough to look into it really deeply. I don't know what each country is telling people now, I do know that the UK only recently changed their stance to say no drinking ever in pregnancy. And I really think this is more of a liability issue for many people. They don't want people to think saying "light drinking is ok in pregnancy" means "any amount of drinking is ok in pregnancy."
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