Help Me Sort This Out...

[momma_unlimited]

I have a very good friend, and our children are the same ages. Our sons our very different in personality- he is very active, whereas my son is very verbal; and usually has urges to throw, hit, and ram things into other things or people. I don't think there is anything *wrong* with him tho, just very active and physical (not that this should be allowed to take its course- some guidance is obviously needed to keep everyone safe). A while ago my friend and I made the mistake of leaving them alone in the yard for a few minutes and my son ended up with a rock in the face and needed stitches.

My friend really took this to heart, and as she is a very compassionate person and doesn't want to see her son lose friends or other people get hurt, she felt she needed to change her parenting strategy. She made four house rules- Don't throw, Don't hit, Don't sass momma, and Listen when momma talks. If the rules are broken, she spanks. She had emphasized all of these rules before, but was more GD and kept giving reminders, all of which were ignored. Now, when I go to her house, everyone seems happier, her kids listen very well (better than mine!) and we haven't had any major accidents. I feel very weird about it because I sort of feel like it was because of us (and I am trying to be GD and less authoritarian) now her kids are gettting spanked? And yet, I *never* saw her son listen to her the way he does now. Before no matter how many of the best GD techniques she used, it seemed like NOTHING phased him. I am wondering, does it have something to do with the fact that he is not very verbal, and so more physical techniques are needed with nonverbal kids? I'm in such a weird position because I feel wrong about spanking and yet, my kids seem to become less and less inclined to follow my directions, and hers more and more.

I guess I just need to air these thoughts out- as though, if I'm doing the right thing for my family, why isn't my house as peaceful and happy?

[Daphneduck]

Maybe he listens because he is afraid of being hit? I'd listen pretty well too, if the threat of being hit was hanging over my head. But just because I'd be listening doesn't mean I'd be thinking or learning. I'd just be listening to that person really closely so that I could figure out what would please them enough to keep them from hitting me.

[dulce de leche]

What GD techniques was she using before? I'm wondering if part of it is that before she didn't do much of anything, and now that she is actively responding, it seems more effective?

Regardless, I think that much of what appears to be happy and peaceful may just be fear on the child's part.

[momma_unlimited]

Before, her strategy was to keep an eagle eye on him and immediately remind him to set down anything that looked like it was ready to be launched- if he didn't respond to verbal instructions she would physically take hold of him and sit with him and go over why it isn't safe to throw things around people, and tell him what he *could* do with rocks and sticks (collect firewood, dig with them, etc). He didn't listen very well so it involved a lot of chasing him. And he seemed almost annoyed and angry at her for intervening. Our visits used to be shorter because everyone's nerves seemed a little shot after a while..

What would you advise someone whose child had these tendencies to do that was "non-punitive" but still "discipline"? Since my son is nothing like hers and they respond so much differently I really didn't have any other advice for her.Maybe spanking was the only thing she could think of?

Let me add- he is very sensitive to foods. Forget it if he has dyes or preservatives... not sure if this adds much to the picture since she does avoid these things. But maybe it is part of an overall sensory issue?

[dulce de leche]

I probably would have handled it similarly to the way she did before (explanations, being ready to intervene). I would try to also give him lots of opportunities to throw safe/soft objects. I also wonder if her son felt like she was constantly expecting him to misbehave, and if that contributed to it? BTW, I am sorry if this comes across as blaming your friend--I think that many do spank just because they are at the end of their rope. At the same time, I don't think that hitting a child is ever justified. I know that the other posters here will have more GD options for her situation.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

I think one of the hardest things about spanking is that it sometimes seems to "work" if you are ONLY looking at the short-term immediate external behavior. No, I'm not advocating spanking, really. But if ALL you look at is this very narrow definition, then spanking seems to get results. Problem is, of course, that is not ALL that is going on. There are internal lessons that aren't coming out, there are longer-term consequences that aren't gong to be visible for a long time. And those, I think, is why we want to avoid spanking. We don't want our children to operate out of fear rather than thinking through situations, we don't want to instill that "might makes right" in the long term, and we don't want our children to look at us for problem solving -- we want them to do it on their own.

It seems like a long leap from talking to spanking. For toddlers and young preschoolers, I'm not sure talking is the right answer. I was more active in intervening and removing my child from these sorts of situations (variation on time-outs). Seems like maybe she could have worked on a much less physical plan before jumping that far.

But ultimately, this is her decision. You can maybe make suggestions if you are very close and you think she would listen. Or you can distance yourself because you don't like her decisions. I know I wouldn't hang around if she were actively spanking around me or my children.

[UUMom]

While in no way would I advocate spanking (I don't do it, and it's against the MDC UA to advocate), some children do better with less talk and very clear -cut 'guidelines'. Some kids cannot deal with lots of talk (or simply hear wahwahwahwah, just as in The Peanuts cartoons). I am thinking it's her clarity of purpose: "This is how it is in our family..." more than anything. I don't like the spanking...is she actually spanking? Not that threatening is any better. For me, hitting is alwasy wrong.

But I do think total clarity 'We do not throw rocks at people, ever" , and then having a very specific plan (picking up and leaving the situation) is what makes the difference for some kids. Many children simply need more than the 'We don't hurt our friends' lecture.

But hitting? No. I am not down with that at all.

[savithny]

Originally Posted by UUMom

While I in no way advocate spanking (I don'tdo it, and it's against the MDC UA), some children do better with less talk and very clear -cut 'guidelines'. Some kids cannot deal with talktalktalk (or simply hear wahwahwahwah, just as in The Peanuts cartoons). I am thinking it's her clarity of purpose: "This is how it is in our family..." more than anything. I don't like the spanking...is she actually spanking? Not that threatening is any better. For me, hitting is alwasy wrong.

But I do think total clarity 'We do not throw rocks at people, ever" , and then having a very specific plan (picking up and leaving the situation) is what makes the difference for some kids. Many children simply need more than the 'We don't hurt our friends' lecture.

But hitting? No. I am not down with that at all.

I had one of those. I tried all the "talk it out, explain and offer alternatives and talk some more" techniques, and they only made things worse.

SO I agree. I think it is the straightforward, cut and dried, no negotation no talking it out and no lots of decisions and consequences and just laying things out and having one set consequence.

I assume this child is the same age as your DS born in 05? SO that would make them both 3-4yo? My DS was very verbal and still was having issues with meltdowns (he was never violent to other people though).

I really think a lot of kids in that age range do not need, and are not ready for, the kind of talk-it-out strategy that people turn to when pursuing GD. Some of them just need a straightforward yes/no. With my DS, I could talk about feelings and effects and "what coudl you do different" stuff *outside* the emotional moment, when it was over (so we'd talk about "next time, what could we do different?" or "okay, last time we were at the park, things didn't go so well. How can we make today different?").

IT does get tricky in that if you're not cajoiing and negotiating in the moment, you have to come up with something to do to enforce the rules. There's plenty else you can do that doesn't involve spanking - but it may involve things that are non-consensual. I don't strive for CL, and while I find myself increasinly using some of those techniques with my older children, if I had another baby I would still not strive for CL. So while I never spanked or hit, I did physically remove a tantrumming child from a location more than once.

[MaWhit]

I think knowing the rules and consequences in advance and having consistent parental follow-through have had more of an effect than the spanking. I bet if time-out or some other non-physical consequence were in effect instead of the spanking, the boy would still be responding well.

[momma_unlimited]

Maybe she was reaching him on the level of what would reach her. I think she feels a little helpless because he has not developed a sense of empathy and she doesn't always know how to relate to him- wanting him to be more compassionate, but he's just not there developmentally... Cut and dry instructions and physical removal (although this can be hard at beaches and parks, with another little one around!) seems more along his line of understanding.

I know sometimes when I am at the end of my rope with my son not listening when we're away from home, I just take him to the car and set him in his carseat and say we're staying here to calm down and get our listening ears back- because all the excitement of being with friends can make it hard for him to listen to me.

Ultimately I think the hardest part is that they are so excited to see each other and play together they get really wound up.

I think one of the hardest things about spanking is that it sometimes seems to "work" if you are ONLY looking at the short-term immediate external behavior. No, I'm not advocating spanking, really. But if ALL you look at is this very narrow definition, then spanking seems to get results. Problem is, of course, that is not ALL that is going on. There are internal lessons that aren't coming out, there are longer-term consequences that aren't gong to be visible for a long time. And those, I think, is why we want to avoid spanking. We don't want our children to operate out of fear rather than thinking through situations, we don't want to instill that "might makes right" in the long term, and we don't want our children to look at us for problem solving -- we want them to do it on their own.

Good point.

[LynnS6]

It sounds to me like she's moved from doing nothing to doing something. And he's probably afraid of getting hit.

Before she gave reminders 'which were ignored'. That's not GD. She wasn't following through. If a reminder is ignored in our house, then I help the child comply, or the child comes in, or the child sits down for a few minutes, or the child is given something else to do, or the child is sent to their room for a time out. Yes, I know time outs are controversial here, but for some things in our house, they are used.

[kimmypoo]

Originally Posted by MaWhit

I think knowing the rules and consequences in advance and having consistent parental follow-through have had more of an effect than the spanking. I bet if time-out or some other non-physical consequence were in effect instead of the spanking, the boy would still be responding well.

:
I bet a consequence other than spanking would be just as effective.

[momma_unlimited]

She had used time-outs... perhaps not consistently though. I don't think she felt they worked very well (almost as if the time alone and isolated allowed bad feelings to "ferment").

How do you do a time-in with company at your house and another small child?

And what are good consequences besides time out? (Just in case the discussion comes up between us...).