can we talk guns???

[sparrow]

my ds will be 4 on wednesday... he asked for a toy sword, which despite my unease with the idea, i decided i could get him. tonight, he asked if he could have toy gun. i have always felt adamantly against having any sort of toy gun in the house... not even squirt guns in the summer.

i am a peacenik at heart, and am learning a lot about myself as i wince every time he talks about guns. guns, guns, guns.

we don't do cartoons or violent movies (not while he's awake, at least ) so i am pretty sure this is coming from his peers at daycare. i feel that this sort of play is inevitable, as much as i abhor it. "i don't like guns' doesn't work to discourage him anymore, as it did when this subject came up last year... i also know that the more i resist it, the more enticing it will be to him, and the more he will feel he can exert power over me & his papa by talking about it.

i have to laugh, in a sense. he told us tonight that he and his best friend only use their pretend guns (totally imaginary) to shoot the monsters. Of course, i have to go off on how we can't always tell who the monsters are by how they look - which is probably a bit more than he can handle at 4yo

so.. the subject is on my mind, and i am curious how others here have handled their children's infatuation with objects of violence & aggression. It's not even that i am totally anti-gun... i think that in a lot of ways, it is about me resisting my little baby turning into this little boy with his own interests that will not always be things i want him to be interested in.

should i ignore it? heck... i've been trying, and it hasn't been working. should i just surrender to it, engage in that sort of play with him, and stop worrying so much? i mean, i remember playing shoot 'em up when i was young, and i still turned out ok... and it isn't like i can really stop him anyway.

i feel like maybe i should find a documentary about them or something...

anyway, now i am rambling.... so i will desist, and post, and wait to see what you all have to say

[papabliss]

I think the real damage of play guns comes not from their existance, but the intent and attitude with which they are used in play. My question is where or with what medium is your ds learning about guns and what they are used for?

In addition to our avoidance of violent toys (although I am a gun owner myself), we avoid as much as possible the presentation of violent or agressive media including books, movies, tv, etc. In fact, we do not own a tv, never have, never will. As much as I can, I keep an eye on situations outside the house where my kids are exposed to media like the violent videos that always seem to be playing near the checkout counter where we shop. I was successful in having the entire horror/violent video section moved away from the candy at our local Albertson's store. Not that our kids buy candy, but they do wonder over to that area to 'window shop.'

I guess in a nutshell, I do not want my kids to act out agression with violent toys, but I also do not want them to be irrationally scared of them. Instead, I hope they treat the violent toys like dog poop-something to be avoided, but not something to be feared.

Good luck!

pb

[sparrow]

like dog poop on the sidewalk that made me smile.

i like your attitude, as well as the questions you raise about intent. i know that it is age appropriate for my ds to be engaged in play that explores power-over and that sort of thing. when i am really centered, i recognize how much he needs to let this sort of thing out sometimes, considering how very much of the world is out of his control.

at the same time, i struggle with the concept of over-protection. there ARE monsters in the world- it may be an injustice for me to get in the way of his working out understanding this concept. to him the monsters are somewhat like t-rexs on a rampage. to me they are more like child molesters and serial killers. it is understandable that he needs to figure out ways of protecting himself, and at his age, gun play probably works for that.

by over protection, i mean that i don't want to totally prevent his exposure to certain things that i disagree with, because i may just be making them more enticing- ykwim? and so we do have a few noisy electronic toys, and i let him watch videos, that way he can still share in his peer culture- even if i do not immerse him in it in the way that is so common in the US.

again, i am digressing here, somewhat.

thanks for the reply!

[levar]

I dont like violent-play. I get a mini-anxiety attack when I even SEE a gun or sword, and weapon-play really makes me nervous. [Barbie NEVER wore fatigues in MY playroom!] My sister is much less squeemish, and much more anti-violence.

My husband is an even bigger peace-nik than I am, yet HE is comfortable around guns and swords and stuff. I think it is because he has a healthy respect not fear [as I do] of them. His brother is a stereotypical redneck with a gunrack in the pickup, etc.

I personally played with my dolls and they did "adventure" stuff sans weaponry. My husband on the other hand was raised in a home with guns and swords and knives everywhere, etc. My husband attributes his pacifistic attitude to elementary and middle school age martial arts training. Cant remember the school of thought but he learned how to 'control' and 'manage' the agression etc and use weaponry for defense, blah blah blah [he'd say this MUCH better than I am]

Not sure either of our parents had the right idea? But boys and girls ARE different about this. [And even boys differ amongst themselves.] So, we are sort of spliting the middle for now with our almost 4 yr old son. He has play swords and knives and guns and even a bow and arrow. It all sits atop the fridge in what we have come to call "the armory" and when he want to play with any of it we let him pick the item AND "game" and we play with him. Our current favorites are knights battling dragons [ala Shrek] and the Toy Story gang battling Zurg. "Dog Piles" and "Tickle Fights" are common.

Just my 2 cents. I am VERY interested to read other thoughts and learn new ideas. Thanks for the topic!!

[papabliss]

On a side note, my 5yo dd was playing with her small dolls and dinosaurs. At one point I peeked in on her and she had a large dinosaur laying on top of one of the small dolls. The head of the dinosaur, mouth open no less, was less than an inch from the doll's head.

It looked to me like the doll had been pounced upon and was about to be eaten. I calmly asked her what was happening and she offered that they were camping and the dinosaur was the tent. I think she got the idea from a Clifford book where Emily Elizabeth slept outside using Clifford's ears for a tent. You never can tell what is in the mind of a child.

pb

[Shantimama]

I agree that it is a developmental/age related thing. My son was fascinated with guns and weapons at the age of 4-5 but has very little interest in them now. (He is 7 years old) We have never allowed gun toys in the house but I haven't tried to control his imaginary play - the day he ate his toast into the shape of a gun I decided I wouldn't stop feeding him to keep gun images away from him :

We have spoken with our children about what guns are for. My father was seriously wounded in WWII and we talk about that. He wasn't killed during the war (or else I wouldn't be here) but he did die very young, in part because of the injuries he sustained. We talk about that, and they seem to get it that guns can hurt people and change their lives and make people sad. One day ds saw a picture in a news magazine of someone who had been shot and I told him that is what guns do when they are shot at people. It made a lasting impression.

I don't make a big deal over what he might play at someone else's house - to me it is most important that he claims our family's values as his own and not that I keep him from all violence - and the learning that comes from it. It is working - by sharing our values at home and thn letting him go out and try things he is saying things like "I don't feel comfortable playing at _________'s house. The games he wants to play are too violent for me." or "I don't think I want to watch that movie, it looks too violent. Why do they put that in a kid's movie anyway, Mom?" Of course I want to protect them, and we watch some videos, all pre-screened, no violent toys, etc. but I want to prepare him gradually for the violence that fills our world and give him the inner strength to face it peacefully and justly - I don't want him to be seduced by it someday because it was always forbidden fruit.

My dh and I watched "Bowling for Columbine" the other night and it just strengthened my convictions. Just like we wouldn't sit back and say "They are just playing" if they were acting out a rape scene or pretending to inject drugs into themselves, I am not going to sit back and ignore it if they are pretending to use guns against each other.

Back to the developmental thing - someone pointed out how 4 year olds are working on issues of "power" now that my son is working on rules and how people work together and work out wrongdoing he is fascinated by handcuffs!

[Gendenwitha]

My rule is simply, "no guns." Pretend, whatever, no.

Why? Guns are not toys. I bought them pocket knives at eight, my youngest has a real bow & arrow set with a target out back, and I have a couple of bows as well. But these are tools or weapons and are not toys.

Why if they're only pretend? Because we practice what we intend to do. One son pretended he was hunting, and I gave him a look of "I know you're just trying to push the boundaries" and walked away. He got bored of it pretty quick. I might have said something if it was ongoing.

If they make gun noises I say "I don't like those noises". If they do pretend guns it's "no guns in my house please."

I also won't have them in my house also because there's a history of mental illness, including bi-polar, in my family.

[batsora]

THis one is a tough one i am still debating over. At first it was no guns period. Definitely never any toy guns. Must use imagination if anything. Then i heard that even boys who are never exposed to guns still figure it out. I have a two year old who loves guns. So then i decided he could do guns but not shoot ppl. DH still doesnt like him to do guns at all. Now i think back to my childhood and i remember enjoying playing guns. Am i a violent person. no. why did i enjoy this. i dont know. in [I]Playful Parenting[I] he says he turned guns once in to the love gun. anytime this boy shot him he had to love him up with sweet names and kisses and such. the idea was to connect. well i played guns sorta with my son a week or go and had a lot of fun. we didnt shoot ppl with bullets. we shot the dog with beauty juice or the tree with wing power. i just figured he likes this and maybe he doesnt really understand what im doing when im shooting beauty juice and gun power but we are using gunplay not guns in a positive way. im trying to get hime into swords right now becuz at least with swords you have to have skill.

[Moonprysm]

No toy guns in our house. Period.

When DH was younger, he found his mom's gun under the seat of her car (she works in a bad area and has to get there really early to avoid traffic - which means she's in her car for an hour or more before it's time to go to work). Anyway, he thought it was a toy and pointed it at their dog. : Luckily the safety was on, but it still definitely makes a point. I don't think children can differentiate between what guns are toys and what guns aren't - especially with the very realistic looking toy guns that are made now.

At the same time, we do plan on owning a real gun sometime in the future. We live in the middle of nowhere and DH often doesn't get home until 10pm or later. When DS was a few months old, someone actually broke into our house while DS and I were in the bedroom sleeping. Apparently they heard me move and left, but I would've felt a lot better knowing that I had some way of protecting myself and my son. Here's where I agree with DH's parents - he played with the gun in his mom's car because he didn't know it was there, so he assumed it was a toy. But his dad had a shotgun that he kept in their bedroom. DH KNEW he'd better not touch it or he was in HUGE trouble. It was always there - in sight - so he wouldn't "find" it and think it was something to play with. It was made very clear what it was and that it was not only dangerous, but that Dad would be dangerous if the kids were playing with it. So DH never touched that one. We plan on doing something similar. Our children will know where the real gun is (at some point - not sure when yet) and will know that it is dangerous. They won't be given toy guns to play with to confuse them. Guns are to protect us from people who want to hurt us, not to play with - that message will be made extremely clear.

[Serendipity]

while nic was a baby i was completely 100% anti-gun. but over the last few years we realized that it was unavoidable and i prefer not spending the entire day saying 'no guns please' 'i don't like that kind of play' 'don't shoot your sister,cat,dog etc'. my ds is obsessed. with guns, swords, lightsabers, anything violent. he doesn't watch tv or movies so it's not from that. it started when he was 2, he just had an innate desire to pick up blocks or sticks or whatever and aim and shoot with them. i HATE it. hate hate hate it, it makes me sick still to watch when he is playing like that. i never bought any bought my MIL has bought him several and at first i kept them up and only let him have them sometimes but that fed the desire so now they are just there. i think it started with his love of airplanes and learning about bombers. he learned about them like any other kind of plane and it just stuck. his bio dad is a marine and that encourages him as well. my BIL is a border patrol agent and has guns and so does my grandpa. we took him to the range so he could SEE and HEAR real guns and see how powerful and destructive they can be so that he would most definitely KNOW that they are not toys. but he still pretends. we have set certain boundaries like no pointing at other people unless they are playing too. and he's old enough now and knows that i hate them so it's easy at this point when it's getting to be too much i let him know and he plays something else. we talk very 'real' with him so he knows about wars, and being being killed and gets it. but he still pretends.

wow was that longwinded. sorry: good luck!

[MamaChicken]

Since my DH and I shoot pistols and rifles as a hobby, we have quite a few in our house. When DS was very young, no toy guns were allowed in our house because he could not make the distinction between real and imaginary. He did go to the gun range with us on a regular basis, had his own set of ear protection and everything. He heard us constantly talking about being safe with the guns.

Once he was older, he was allowed toy guns that were obviously toy - bright colors, weird shapes. He had to follow the same safety rules as our real guns - always assume the gun is loadded, never point it at anything you are not willing to destroy, etc. If he didn't, he was reminded of the rule and the gun got a time-out. He is almost 9 and now has his own rifle, which is kept in the gun safe with the rest of the guns. If he wants to shoot it, DH takes him to the range and he gets to shoot it.

We also used the news as a way of talking about guns and responsibility. Sometimes it seems like the media blames the gun for the violence. But you know what? I set a gun on the table - fully loaded mind you : - and watched it for HOURS!!!! Guess what? It didn't do anything! Not so much as a twitch. I guess it really is the responsibility of the people holding the gun after all!

I know there are horrible accidents sometimes. Most of these are preventable if people would secure the guns when not in use and follow the basic gun safety rules. And by "secure" them, I don't mean "hide" them.

I guess my point is that if we all taught our children gun safety and responsibilty - the way we do driving safety or safe sex or how to walk down the street safely or bicycle safety - we might all be better off. Guns are inanimate objects, they can't be evil or dangerous - only misused.

So I would not ignore it, I would use it as a learning experience. It sounds as if you have made a great start - taking him to the range, etc.

[Oriole]

I'm grew up playing guns-games, and am very anti-violence *shrug*

I think something is missing in the link where people say "gun play is dangerous and bad". I was never a violent child, nor am I a violent adult.

Toy-guns are not a problem, the irresponsible adults are, uncaring parents are, unstable family units are. Not the games.

[LynnS6]

Read Playful Parenting by Larry Cohen.

He has some sound ideas on the subject.

[Terrilein]

No toy-guns here and I don't even like it when she cocks her thumb pretending she has one in her hand. Of course, dd picked it up from pre-school. I imagine they get it from their parents or tv. Anyhow, I never made a big issue out of it. I just looked at her pistol finger and trigger thumb, gave her a bored look, and I told her I thought guns were dumb and then went back to whatever I was doing. I only had to do that twice and she doesn't pretend to run around with a gun anymore.

[clogmama]

Here's an article that was published in Mothering about guns and imaginative weapons play...

http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...bang-bang.html

[PumpkinSeeds]

My kids can play with all of it.

[rainbowmoon]

:

my 3yo DS just got a variety pack of water guns last week. I feel so dumb for getting these for him but it's been soooo hot here.

[sparrow]

funny how perspective changes over time.

ds is now 7. we still don't have any toy guns, but he will manage to make guns out of other things sometimes. he is not obsessed with them, but he & his friends do play shooting games- often where they are all on the same team fighting invisible monsters...

when he was younger, i though swords were better. i had some sort of idea that they were less offensive than guns- maybe because i have a thing for dungeons & dragons type games & books & whatnot.

but being ok with swords has translated into he & his friends running around the park whacking things & each other with sticks. even where there is no intention to hurt, a lot of OOPS kind of accidents happen.


i still think that aggressive play is understandable in our boys, though. this is a crazy world we live in, and there is a reality of war going on too. i often think that their war play is about understanding this 'war' thing that they may have to be involved with *shudder* when they grow up.

ok, it's before caffeine. i gotta run.

[boatbaby]

We haven't had this issue arise yet. My DS is 3 and has NO IDEA what a gun is and has never engaged in "gun play". Right now he just likes "hooking" things like a Pirate But I am trying to form a plan for when the time comes that someone, somewhere reveals what a gun is... so I am :


I have to say -- it irritates me when people say their young child has an "innate" desire to engage in gun play. There is NOTHING innate (meaning natural, or existing from birth) about guns. It is taught. From a person, TV, something.
Aggression may be innate, the need to attack things, but not guns and gun play. Kids don't just make up the concept of a gun and turn other toys into guns out of the blue. They get it from SOMEWHERE.

[PumpkinSeeds]

Originally Posted by boatbaby

They get it from SOMEWHERE.

We read Winnie the Pooh and Christopher Robin had a gun. We also read Treasure Island and there were guns in that story too. Those are just two examples.

My son is really into Greek and Roman myths. Lots of swords and bows and arrows in those stories. He also was really into knights and vikings and pirates at one time or another. We've looked at lots of non-fiction books, read many fictional stories and have even seen many museum exhibits regarding all of these subjects.