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post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post
I don't think Asra is flouting her sin. I actually think she's a role model (or should be) to many Muslim women in tellling them that even if you do make a mistake (her out-of-wedlock sex is the mistake, not her child... IMHO her child shows what a merciful and kind God we have that he can grant such a blessing from a "mistake").... you don't have to curl up and die. You can ask God for forgiveness and move on. I think she's done that wonderfully, really. I think she's a testament to God's mercy.
It just sounds as though you don't find much room for a space between "actively telling and retelling" and "curling up and dying." A great many people do, on religious grounds; it's not so black and white. Some would argue that really moving on requires that space.

Quote:
All the sins of my followers will be forgiven except those of the Mujahirin (those who commit a sin openly or disclose their sins to the people). An example of such disclosure is that a person commits a sin at night, and though Allah screens it from the public then he comes in the morning and says, 'O so-and-so, I did such-and-such (evil) deed yesterday' -- though he spent his night screened by his Lord (none knowing about his sin) and in the morning he removes Allah's screen from himself."
Quote:
A man came to the Prophet and said: “Ya Rasulullah! I have mingled with a woman in the far side of Madinah and I fulfilled my desire short of actually having sexual intercourse with her. So, here am I, judge me according to what you decide.” Umar Ibn al-Khattab then said: “Allah had kept your secret, why did not you keep your secret?”
post #42 of 59
Thread Starter 
So in what way is Ms. Nomani actively telling and retelling about her sin? I've read quite a few of her articles, and the parts of one book that were available to read online -- and nowhere have I seen her go into detail about any sex act.

When she has public speaking engagements, is she telling the same story over and over? Even if she is, as long as she's not going over and over the actual sex-part (which is all that is the sin, right?), I would think she could share her dilemma about realizing she was pregnant in a country where she could be stoned for it -- and this would not be "actively telling and retelling" about any sin --

Because the pregnancy and baby are not the sin, and as you have said, ALL mothers are held in high esteem -- single, married, widowed, divorced, whatever.

And as far as the Scriptures about the man who removed God's covering and told about a sin that God had kept secret -- obviously God chose NOT to keep Ms. Nomani's secret a secret. He gave her a baby, and the baby is something to be celebrated. Again, I just don't see where she's going over and over the actual sin-part.
post #43 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
So in what way is Ms. Nomani actively telling and retelling about her sin? I've read quite a few of her articles, and the parts of one book that were available to read online -- and nowhere have I seen her go into detail about any sex act. ...

And as far as the Scriptures about the man who removed God's covering and told about a sin that God had kept secret -- obviously God chose NOT to keep Ms. Nomani's secret a secret. He gave her a baby, and the baby is something to be celebrated. Again, I just don't see where she's going over and over the actual sin-part.
Her first book and subsequent interviews have been quite clear as to the nature of the relationship which caused her pregnancy. Detailing the sex act itself isn't necessary; making it clear that it was an unwed relationship at all is enough. And while indeed there is living, breathing evidence of her having had sex at some point in her life, the fuqaha would tell anyone in that same situation to first deflect questions as to the origins of the child, to second answer in a way that does not make one's sin apparent, to third answer dishonestly if need be, or to fourth answer clearly and honestly, but only if the situation has need for it. It is a hard argument to make that choosing national, and to a degree international, exposure before any who care to read her works falls under the fourth.

While it is true that among those close to her who knew she was not married the situation was clear ............. you know, there are certainly people in my life who know of choices I've made, but their knowledge does not mean that I would be acting rightly to set out to broaden the scope of who knows. Nor would those who know be right to spread it themselves (such as, I'm pretty much 100% sure that even just my participation in this thread, well meaning though it has been, has crossed a line by publicly spreading knowledge of her past). In short, cover isn't all or nothing. A lot of Islamic punitive law rests upon open confession, not just upon things that are obvious but unseen and unstated. And the advice of our prophet, upon him be peace, had always been for the muslim to not confess.
post #44 of 59
Thread Starter 
I felt so saddened when I heard what Ms. Nomani said about women abandoning their babies that they'd conceived out of wedlock, out of fear of getting stoned.

I think if her speaking out can empower more Muslim women to speak out -- maybe this would help to stop the stoning and other punishments that are going on, so that there aren't as many abandoned babies.

This would be something very powerful to come out of her willingness to be upfront.

I guess for me, lying would just take a whole lot more energy than being straightforward. Not that I feel everything is everyone else's "business" -- and if someone is crossing my personal boundaries I'll politely say so --

But, personally, if I'd had a baby out of wedlock, I would just find it easier to be straightforward with my child when s/he questioned me -- and, uh, that would pretty much mean everyone else would know anyway. So it would just be easier to me to be straightforward from the beginning.

If someone else has another preference, then I think that's her business and I respect that.

Of course, I know nothing about being Muslim. But it just seems like taking so much effort to be secretive, gives the impression that someone's carrying a whole lot more shame than they need to carry, just for being human and making a mistake.

Maybe that's because in my experience, being honest about our shortcomings is a great connecting-point for getting to know people, and finding others who've been struggling with the same issues, in order to help and encourage one another.

Also, women who are burnened with a sense of inferiority, may not organically reach out to women around them and share their hearts, for fear of getting rejected. So two women with similar pasts, could potentially see one another all the time at the mosque, but never confide and know that here is a sister who understands what I've been through.

But if these isolated women hear Ms. Nomani's story, they may get empowered to share their own stories and make some closer friends.
post #45 of 59
Thread Starter 
Another concern I have regarding lying about, or trying to cover up, a child's being conceived out-of-wedlock -- isn't that bound to make the child feel like you're ashamed of him or her?

Maybe my problem is that it's very hard for me to lie -- and I know I couldn't lie to my own child, because the lie would come between me and my child and affect our intimacy. So my child would be knowing the truth from a very early age -- as soon as she became curious enough to want to know the details.

And then seeing me trying to hide the truth from others, would likely make my child feel there was something shameful about how s/he came into the world.
post #46 of 59
The basic point the jurists are making is not "lie, lie, lie your head off," it's to consider the moral priorities as suggested by our prophet. On a whole lying is deeply frowned upon -- therefore it is saying quite a lot that in the order of moral priorities lying comes before unnecessary self-disclosure. Muslims sometimes love to point out that principle when it comes to, for example, the notion that masturbation is wrong but if it is really the only way to avoid the greater sin of non-marital sex it is acceptable. Not so much when it is something we don't *want* to do first that is being positioned as the lesser, and therefore acceptable in the cause of avoiding the greater, sin.

On a whole it really does still appear to be applying motivations and repurcussions that have nothing really to do with the Islamic view. I get that to you self-disclosure is not that big a deal, or is even beneficial. It is just not and has never really been the fuqaha view. And it is a part of a sum total view that if applied in its totality does not result in the same ends as in your view. In the guidelines for community and personal life proposed by Islam, encouraging secrecy =/= encouraging inferiority complexes. Secrecy =/= shame in that scarlet letter sense. Openness =/= greater freedom. Friendships forged through the lowest common denominators of those involved =/= friendships to be encouraged. And, again, speaking out in the context of stopping a wrong =/= speaking out in a manner that extends well beyond acting against that wrong. Etc.

I understand where you're coming from, but it's really just not all that relevant to the Islamic societal ideal. It is relevant to the struggles of, for example, indiginous Western Muslims who grew up infused with the Western cultural ideals illustrated in your posts but who still turn to their religion for -- culturally contradictory -- guidance. And different people deal with thay in different ways. Some ignore or reject the religious guidance. Some ignore or reject the cultural inclinations. And probably most just try to find the balance that works for them personally.

But as to the religion as a self-contained body of personal, social, and spiritual regulations? Nope, does not compute.
post #47 of 59
Thread Starter 
Liquesce, thanks so much for your patience and willingness to share about Islam with me! I guess it is just difficult for me to understand from my Western vantage-point.

And of course as you've said, each Muslim has to find his/her own balance. I think Ms. Nomani has found her balance -- and I must admit I rather identify with her, because to many conservative Christians I am not a Christian.

I still treasure my Bible, and I still believe God speaks to me through it -- but I also feel parts of it are a reflection of earlier people's perspectives of what God is like, and not ACTUAL portrayals of God ... and I no longer see every word as God's inspired Word.

And I no longer see God as a punitive figure with a need to punish sin -- I'm actually leaning toward believing that WE were the ones who felt a need to punish ourselves and others for sin, and Jesus came to be our Perfect Sacrifice to free us from the prison of our own making.

As you can see, I'm diverging a lot from conventional Christianity -- yet I still believe in Christ. I think Muslims like Ms. Nomani get misunderstood in a similar way -- not that I think everyone should pretend to agree with her. I think everyone should be honest and I'm glad you are so honest and patient in sharing your perspective.

I'm learning a lot here, and I welcome all comments!
post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
because to many conservative Christians I am not a Christian.
Oh dear. I'm sorry you have to deal with that. And is anyone saying she's not Muslim? If so I've missed that part of the whole mess. And that would be another issue in and of itself.

At any rate, not meaning to yammer. As you may have noticed, I have a lot of free time these past couple of weeks.
post #49 of 59
The thing is, Liquesce, Islam VERY MUCH does punish the child... regardless of the intent. An illegitimate child may not take it's father's name... so by going by it's mother's name, it's illegitimate status is always known--thus affecting future employment, marriage, etc. In some Muslim countries, such as Malaysia, children out of wedlock don't even get their mother's name, but get the standard last name of Abdullah. Heck, in quite a few Muslim countries, even a DNA-test establishing paternity does not guarantee that the child will be allowed his/her father's name, and thus the rights attributed to him/her by that lineage. The child is eternally punished for his mother's act... and is the case so often, the father gets away without repercussion.

Good for Ms. Nomani for sticking up for her child in a culture where that child would be eternally stigmatized.

I hope that more and more women in Ms. Nomani's situation do speak up, and begin to stand up for their children, so that in the future Muslim children born out of wedlock will not have to suffer a lifetime for their parent's acts....which is the reality today in every Muslim country. Granted, even in the US, laws regarding legitimacy existed through the 1970s... so I fear it will take much much longer for things to change, if ever, in Muslim countries.

One has to wonder if the attitude to children born out of wedlock lead to an attempt to terminate those pregnancies, such as was the case in the US prior to 1973. I know abortion is prohibited in most Muslim countries, which makes the situation even more dangerous for the women involved. But then again, my fear is that these women feel they have nothing to lose.
post #50 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post
The thing is, Liquesce, Islam VERY MUCH does punish the child... regardless of the intent. An illegitimate child may not take it's father's name... so by going by it's mother's name, it's illegitimate status is always known--thus affecting future employment, marriage, etc. In some Muslim countries, such as Malaysia, children out of wedlock don't even get their mother's name, but get the standard last name of Abdullah. Heck, in quite a few Muslim countries, even a DNA-test establishing paternity does not guarantee that the child will be allowed his/her father's name, and thus the rights attributed to him/her by that lineage. The child is eternally punished for his mother's act... and is the case so often, the father gets away without repercussion.

Good for Ms. Nomani for sticking up for her child in a culture where that child would be eternally stigmatized.

I hope that more and more women in Ms. Nomani's situation do speak up, and begin to stand up for their children, so that in the future Muslim children born out of wedlock will not have to suffer a lifetime for their parent's acts....which is the reality today in every Muslim country. Granted, even in the US, laws regarding legitimacy existed through the 1970s... so I fear it will take much much longer for things to change, if ever, in Muslim countries.

One has to wonder if the attitude to children born out of wedlock lead to an attempt to terminate those pregnancies, such as was the case in the US prior to 1973. I know abortion is prohibited in most Muslim countries, which makes the situation even more dangerous for the women involved. But then again, my fear is that these women feel they have nothing to lose.
Um, maybe it should be obvious, but why give the child the mom's name and not the dad's? It's not like he wasn't involved? I suppose it was the same here until recently too, but I don't quite understand it.

I suppose it comes down to what my grandmother said "It's up to a boy to try, and a girl to deny!" Having a womb puts a heavier burden on women. But I still don't see why religion supports this.
post #51 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post
And is anyone saying she's not Muslim?
You make a wonderful point! No, I don't think anyone here has said she's not a Muslim -- so it sounds like Muslims are way more tolerant of diversity than some Christians are.
post #52 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post
The thing is, Liquesce, Islam VERY MUCH does punish the child... regardless of the intent. An illegitimate child may not take it's father's name... so by going by it's mother's name, it's illegitimate status is always known--thus affecting future employment, marriage, etc.
I'm missing where in Islam it says that an illegitimate child shall be culturally shunned, unemployed, and unwed? AFAIK Islam is pretty solidly about the sins of any one not being the responsibility of another. If there is an exception I'd certainly like to know it.
post #53 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post
I'm missing where in Islam it says that an illegitimate child shall be culturally shunned, unemployed, and unwed? AFAIK Islam is pretty solidly about the sins of any one not being the responsibility of another. If there is an exception I'd certainly like to know it.
Show me a Muslim-majority country where illigitimate children are not shunned, please. While it may go against the Qur'an, it is the de-facto norm. I'd love to know if there is one single exception.

http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=26290

Quote:
Egyptian law requires that fathers hold their children’s birth certificates. Illegitimate children, therefore, “grow up without a name, without any care from the government”, says Lamia Lotfy of the New Woman’s Research Centre. Without a birth certificate, a child has no access to state-run health care or schooling, and can’t get a passport to travel outside the country. The mothers of illegitimate children also face social stigmas. In many cases, young women who become pregnant outside of marriage must choose between either having illegal abortions or abandoning their children, or facing the stigma of unwed motherhood. There is also the chance that “maybe her father or her brother will kill her if she has a baby outside marriage”, says Lotfy.
In Indonesia and Pakistan, even if a father acknowledges the child, the child is still viewed as illigitimate and may inherit only from it's mother. Thus, the father gets away with not having to fulfill his Islamic duty to support his children, grant them inheritence, etc.
post #54 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post
Show me a Muslim-majority country where illigitimate children are not shunned, please. While it may go against the Qur'an, it is the de-facto norm. I'd love to know if there is one single exception.
I must admit to finding it highly disturbing that you're willing to openly conflate the culture of Muslim nations with the position of Islam itself. Particularly when I have myself heard you actively speak against doing so in other matters. We both know Muslims do a great many non-Islamic things. Saying that the de facto cultural norm is the Islamic position on this, however, is really no different from saying murder in the name of honor, acts of terrorism, refusing education to girls, etc, etc, etc, are the religiously appropriate positions on those matters, as these too are things there is ample evidence that Muslims do and Muslims do using religion as their justification. Whatever people may claim, though, religiously incorrect is still religiously incorrect. And I've still not seen anything personally to support the claim that Islam encourages repercussions upon a child for the sins of the parent.
post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post
And I've still not seen anything personally to support the claim that Islam encourages repercussions upon a child for the sins of the parent.
But Liquesce, it is Islam (and the various Muslim scholars and schools of thought) that necessitate a woman naming her child after herself and the child not taking it's father's name... not inheriting, etc. IMHO, that does implicate the faith. If you look at these numerous rulings on "childen of zina", not one says that the child has the right to support from it's father... or the right to inherit... http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/F...ng=E&CatId=869 The mother did not conceive the child on her own, the father helped.. .and as such, he should help support that child. Islam is supposed to be a religion that respects science... and with the DNA tests available today, there's no reason why any child born out of wedlock should not be supported by both parents.

As for the gigantic gap between Islam in theory and practice, to be quite honest, I'm getting rather tired of it. One should know the religion by the actions of its followers... and if the followers are so so far off, in so many different places, then what does that say about the religion?
post #56 of 59
Inheritance laws in Islam are a mess. By which I don't mean they are horrible, not really, but they are really difficult to navigate. (You should have seen the nightmare when I was trying to figure out my first husband's estate. Dear lord!) Paternity for the sake of inheritance or maintenance can not under any conditions be established by way of adultery itself. Period. I have never read of an alim even hinting otherwise. Marriage carries with it a presumption of paternity which can only be broken by the denial of both marriage partners. The recognition of an acknowledgment of paternity outside of presumptive paternity is, however, a part of Islamic law. Now, obviously that can conflict with the fact that adultery can not establish paternity. One manner of reconciling that is to accept the acknowledgment of paternity while continuing to encourage people to remain silent on the sin itself; to not equate acknowledgment of paternity to acknowledgment of adultery. So it is possible for an illegitimate child to be effectively legitimized in the eyes of the law as it exists, little though it happens in practice. The only time consistently named among the ulama that an acknowledgment of paternity absolutely can not apply is when the mother and father under no conditions even could have been married -- such as if the mother was married to someone else at the time, in which case the presumptive paternity and associated rights would apply. (I have never seen proof of marriage in the case of acknowledgments -- the bringing forth of witnesses, for example -- to be mentioned, though I suppose it's possible that some scholars have preferred. I'm guessing, even if preferred, 'urfi marriages, complicated misyar marriage, migrations, and volatile times have made it sometimes seem unrealistic. To demand proof could be tantamount to denying sworn testimony and setting up cause for false accusations.)

That option, of course, carries with it its own problems. What if a rightful father denies? But then, what if a mother is dishonest in attributing a child to one man over another? The classical law had to find a way to balance that. And what it came up with was that (a) marriage legitimizes and takes two denials to negate the legitimacy, and (b) a lack of marriage delegitimizes and takes two affirmations to legitimize. (Personally I think a reasonable correlation could be drawn between affirmation and paternity testing ... I say "could be" because to my knowledge it has not been in the interest of prioritizing other issues surrounding making accusations. But I still personally think that the case could be made by working with the law.)

As to that presumption of paternity, maximum legal gestation is longer than maximum actual gestation. So a child conceived prior to marriage should the marriage occur within the extended period, which encompasses about the first full trimester, would have that presumption. That possibility -- that of marriage upon the discovery of pregnancy -- would be the topmost option the law encourages.

What it comes down to is that a mother's word alone is not enough to make a legal claim of paternity for the purposes of monetary benefit. There has to be something else. Lacking marriage, lacking acknowledgments, and lacking any legal acknowledgment of more technological options than when the law was conceived -- lacking a legally established paternity -- the child simply obtains the rights of maintenance and inheritance more in line with those of orphans and adopted children. (I don't think Islam is really complicit in any shunning of orphans or adoptees either, myself, though I suppose some may disagree there too.) At no point does it say "because you are worth less due to your heritage;" it simply says "what is affirmed can be acted on and what is not can not" -- paternity in law is a legal term, not a moral one. Should a father knowingly refuse to care for his own child, in the end that's upon him. And if a people choose to practice beliefs contrary to the basic Qur'anic principle of not punishing one for the sins of another by turning the legal designation into a socially detrimental moral one ... you know, may god help them, but contrary is still contrary.

--------------------------

On a more personal side, I'm really very sorry that you're feeling like the state of our community speaks ill of our faith itself. It's happened to all communities, all faiths, all ideologies, and it's a shame. I sincerely hope trying to reconcile what is in the world with regard to woefully unrealized ideals does not result in a more nihilistic view towards those ideals themselves. Many have merit ... they just need people to listen and apply. A message, a system, even a law, is not a bludgeon ... in a world of choices even perfect truths are not guaranteed realization. And claiming belief in something does not mean acting upon or even understanding it. That doesn't really say much about anything other than the fact that the Qur'an is right in suggesting that religion lacks compulsion. That can apply further than simply in reference to forcing non-believers to believe.
post #57 of 59
Oh, and mammal_mama, I thought you might find this quote from Tariq Ramadan's new book interesting:

Quote:
Mosques today are essentially men’s places, and this does not correspond to the higher objectives of Islam’s message… the bulk of Islam’s message as well as the Prophetic practice suffice to show that the mosques space must be absolutely open to women… This is not so today; not only do some mosques simply have no facilities for women, but when these are available; their state of upkeep is often shocking… so that women are almost being discouraged from attending… this is simply not acceptable! Women must be integrated into mosque management committees in the same way their presence is necessary in reflection and fatawa councils.
And this from someone the Bush administration declared a radical.
post #58 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post
Oh, and mammal_mama, I thought you might find this quote from Tariq Ramadan's new book interesting:



And this from someone the Bush administration declared a radical.

Now you've got me all curious as to who it was!
post #59 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Now you've got me all curious as to who it was!
Tariq Ramadan is one of those people who try to work with the religious tradition when it comes to navigating Western culture, dealing with questions of justice and oppression, etc. General consensus is the U.S. government doesn't like him because of the combination of his prominence in the European Muslim community and who his grandfather was (one of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood founders). He's often accused of being too liberal and too conservative, so he's definitely working the balance.

The book is Radical Reform ... I'm just waiting for it to come out in paperback. I'll guess he's probably all over YouTube. I've long considered his call for a moratorium on corporal punishments and the death penalty in Muslim communities to be thought provoking, considering the state of related laws and practices in some areas.
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