Rejoicing in Our Femininity

[mammal_mama]

One thing I've noticed is that when people push against the tide of public opinion, both men and women face harsh criticism -- but it seems like the female "movers and shakers" also face the added jab that their assertiveness makes them somehow less feminine.

It seems that in discussions of sexual equality, there is usually this faction who talks about how womanhood is something to be celebrated (and I agree that it is), and also how women are really gaining nothing by "trying to be like men" -- and I agree that I have no interest whatsoever in "being like a man" -- I just want the freedom to live my life in the way that I feel God is calling me to live it. Which for me sometimes involves being more outspoken than certain people perceive as "ladylike."

For instance, following God's calling as a mother has involved me being willing to respond promptly to my children's cues that they wanted to nurse, wherever we happened to be. And since my children didn't like to nurse with their heads draped, following God's call additionally meant that I just wore big shirts in which I could nurse fairly-modestly without a cover-up. Some of my fellow-Christians saw this as immodest when it happened in church, and felt compelled to try to stop me.

Now that my girls are older, public breastfeeding is no longer an issue that my family personally deals with, but I still endeavor to show support when I meet a breastfeeding mom out in public -- such as one I met recently in the dentist's office, who felt uncomfortable about latching her baby on because it was a warm day and she'd forgotten to bring any cover-up.

I also continue to discuss the issue whenever it seems pertinent -- because I see the care and feeding of babies and young children as an issue that's very close to the heart of God, and think it's a real travesty that there are Christians expressing attitudes that make it difficult for women to breastfeed their babies.

The issue came up recently in a local faith forum I'm a part of. The writer wanted us to share some about our religious-shifts, and I briefly touched on my previous church's attitude toward public breastfeeding, and how that was instrumental in getting me to question whether this was really where I belonged.

Another (male) poster said something like, "Oh, so I guess 'truth' is whatever you and your child want at any given time." And I responded, which led to a whole debate ensuing. I got support from some of the Atheists, but there were some male Christians who felt my attitudes indicated a real problem with rules, authority, and one guy even talked about "exhibitionism."

And then a woman poster came in and told me I had toooo much time on my hands, and said she had a responsibility to teach younger women, and she really felt I needed to go to a mothering forum with my breastfeeding "questions" (I hadn't asked any "questions" -- my "baby" is 4, LOL). But anyhow this woman felt I was being vulgar and crude to be talking about breastfeeding on a mixed forum -- and suspected my milk tasted "sour" to many of the men there because I was not their wife or the mother of their child.

Long story short, it just boggles my mind that people continue to see basic issues like meeting the needs of children, as somehow "not pertinent" to broader discussions of living out our beliefs -- it's only acceptable to address these issues in "mothering" forums ... it's not "ladylike" to bring them up in mixed company.

[njeb]

I wonder, too, if part of the problem is that mothers' issues, such as breastfeeding, are seen only as "women's issues," and therefore don't belong on mixed forums. This attitude is so sexist because mothers' issues affect us all, male and female alike. The whole issue is bigger than religion. You see it in the greater society as a whole.

Edited to add: Of course, even places such as MDC are not truly "female" forums, because we have some men who post here, too. The whole problem is the marginalization of these issues in larger society, which results in things that affect women not getting the attention they deserve, in Congress, in the press, in Church.

[hquest_98]

I could not agree with you more. In our society, not more than 50 or 60 years ago, public breastfeeding was quite common - with and without covering up. It has only been fairly recently that mothers have been looked down upon as "exhibitionists" if they breastfeed in public. No mother should be ashamed of doing this and any passers-by that are somehow uncomfortable with this can just look away!

When will people realize that we are designed to feed our babies in this fashion and that anything else is really unnatural and not as healthy for our child. My husband and I also believe that breast milk contains not just essential nutrients for the baby's body, but also our memories and intincts that help to make the first psychological imprints in the baby's brain. (see www.lifeconscious.com for more info)

Keep advocating public breastfeeding and if someone gives you a sneer or a rude comment about your feedings, just pray for them. They only criticize you because they don't understand.

[njeb]

Originally Posted by hquest_98

I could not agree with you more. In our society, not more than 50 or 60 years ago, public breastfeeding was quite common - with and without covering up. It has only been fairly recently that mothers have been looked down upon as "exhibitionists" if they breastfeed in public. No mother should be ashamed of doing this and any passers-by that are somehow uncomfortable with this can just look away!

When will people realize that we are designed to feed our babies in this fashion and that anything else is really unnatural and not as healthy for our child. My husband and I also believe that breast milk contains not just essential nutrients for the baby's body, but also our memories and intincts that help to make the first psychological imprints in the baby's brain. (see www.lifeconscious.com for more info)

Keep advocating public breastfeeding and if someone gives you a sneer or a rude comment about your feedings, just pray for them. They only criticize you because they don't understand.

I agree with all of your post except the part about public bf being common as recently as 50-60 years ago. I was born in 1955, and bf was extremely UN-common then. Public breastfeeding was unheard of. I was ff, as were my siblings and around 99% of the babies around me. My mother was born in 1922, and *she* was ff. My grandmother couldn't be bothered to breastfeed. Formula feeding is much older than you realize. That is part of the problem. It has been many generations since bf in public has been common. Your grandparents, my parents, abandoned breastfeeding in droves. This is why LLL was founded in 1956--so few women were nursing that they had to turn to strangers to learn how to breastfeed.
As an aside, maybe this is why the boomers are so narcissistic? We were the first generation to have been mostly artificially fed.

[doubledutch]

i think the situation with public breastfeeding 50 or 60 years ago was that the act of breastfeeding hadn't been completely sexualized, so it wasn't creepy, weird or gross to breastfeed in public, even without a cover. how common it was is questionable - it varied by social status. breastfeeding became something for the poorest americans, so many people were still doing it even if, in some circles, it seemed that no one was doing it.

i'm not sure exactly what's meant by the statement about lll's founding. the founders were friends. women got (bad) advice from their doctors, not exactly strangers, although they were complete strangers to breastfeeding most cases. and lll leaders are only 'strangers' until your first meeting.

[doubledutch]

i just realized my post was almost completely ot . . . sorry!

i know many people in churches are not supportive, but most churches themselves are actually supportive of breastfeeding, if not in practice, then in theory and would be more so in practice if they understood how.

church was the first place i ever saw anyone breastfeeding (as a child).

as a new mom, i was a little paranoid that the more conservative/religious among my family would be weird about me nursing "any time, anywhere" but they were actually completely awesome about it. maybe a little personally uncertain of how they should behave and be accomodating, but they were fans of nursing babies, that's for sure. it was encouraging and helped me be confident when nursing in other questionable situations, like when visiting a church.

[mammal_mama]

I agree that many religious people are totally in favor of babies getting the breast promptly, wherever they happen to be when they get hungry or want to comfort-nurse.

I guess I was kind of using the breastfeeding as an example, though, of how some issues like this are swept under the carpet and dismissed as "women's issues" rather than being seen as broad social issues that should be a concern of everyone.

And I feel women who initiate a dialog about it in mixed settings, often get dismissed as well, and are often seen as not very feminine or ladylike.

[mammal_mama]

Also, beyond the breastfeeding, there just seems to be this attitude that women who speak up and work for change and justice, are being "like men" and "losing something" in the process --

Rather than "glorying in the uniqueness of being a woman," (and I guess the "feminine" way would be dealing with everything by quietly praying rather than directly confronting a problem?).

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

And I feel women who initiate a dialog about it in mixed settings, often get dismissed as well, and are often seen as not very feminine or ladylike.

That's double sided though. I've many times participated in mixed setting dialogs with regard to issues that typically fall under the heading of "women's issues," and what I've seen has mostly been a lot women coming away affronted that men have opinions on their issues. Sometimes it seems like what is wanted isn't a mixed dialog but instead a format wherein men listen and learn but don't have an actual voice if it disagrees with that of the women involved.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

Sometimes it seems like what is wanted isn't a mixed dialog but instead a format wherein men listen and learn but don't have an actual voice if it disagrees with that of the women involved.

Well, in the mixed discussion on breastfeeding that I was just a part of, it's true that I would have liked for the men who were critical of public breastfeeding, to be willing to listen and learn a bit about the practical realities of breastfeeding --

I.e. when they said it should be no problem for a mother to just find a private spot whenever her baby wanted the breast, they seemed to lack understanding of just how frequently some babies like to be latched on, whether for food or comfort.

I honestly wasn't saying the men "had no right" to comment or voice disagreement -- but I did think they should be more willing to learn about the logistics of the issue before one made a blanket statement that no women or babies were "being hurt" by societal disapproval of public breastfeeding, and that I therefore was just being a "rebel without a cause," crying "abuse" where there were absolutely no victims.

I would also have liked for more people to respond to my concerns about how these disapproving attitudes were likely to affect mothers' ability to breastfeed for the minimum of two years recommended by the World Health Organization. I kept saying "This is a world health issue, and the Church should be making it easier and not harder for women to breastfeed."

One man in the debate (an Atheist) supported me, and said if a man was disturbed by a woman breastfeeding, he needed to be the one to leave the room. But the Christian men (at least the ones who commented, except for one who seemed to agree with me about breastfeeding, but who kept pointing out that he thought it was contradictory that I didn't feel a need to outlaw abortion) ...

As I was saying, the Christian men (aside from the one who agreed but kept wanting to turn the debate around to abortion) all felt it was an issue where society has rules for a reason ... one equated it to him eating his dinner "off a naked lady," and said if he ever did that, I could be sure it would be in private.

That said, I didn't attmept to shut any of the men up -- just kept countering their arguments with my own. But I felt there were some attempts to shut ME up -- i.e. by the woman who came on telling me I had toooo much time on my hands and should be spending that time bonding with God or my children, and should take my breastfeeding "questions" to a mothering discussion forum, because it was "crude" for me to discuss it in that mixed forum.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

I honestly wasn't saying the men "had no right" to comment or voice disagreement

I didn't mean you personally or your situation. Just IME. I've seen a lot of discussions pretty much just devolve into women saying "don't try to tell us anything about our own choices, this is about women." It just seems like it's a hard balance to strike sometimes.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

I didn't mean you personally or your situation. Just IME. I've seen a lot of discussions pretty much just devolve into women saying "don't try to tell us anything about our own choices, this is about women." It just seems like it's a hard balance to strike sometimes.

Yes, I see your point.

[njeb]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

I agree that many religious people are totally in favor of babies getting the breast promptly, wherever they happen to be when they get hungry or want to comfort-nurse.

I guess I was kind of using the breastfeeding as an example, though, of how some issues like this are swept under the carpet and dismissed as "women's issues" rather than being seen as broad social issues that should be a concern of everyone.

And I feel women who initiate a dialog about it in mixed settings, often get dismissed as well, and are often seen as not very feminine or ladylike.

: I totally agree with this.

This is one of the reasons I became a Pagan. I just couldn't stomach the whole idea of women being submissive to men. In my religion, strong women are nurtured and cherished. Of course, the liberal Christian churches are much better than the more conservative, fundamentalist ones when it comes to the place of women, so I don't mean to paint all of Christianity with the same brush.

Which denomination are you a member of?

[njeb]

Originally Posted by doubledutch

i think the situation with public breastfeeding 50 or 60 years ago was that the act of breastfeeding hadn't been completely sexualized, so it wasn't creepy, weird or gross to breastfeed in public, even without a cover. how common it was is questionable - it varied by social status. breastfeeding became something for the poorest americans, so many people were still doing it even if, in some circles, it seemed that no one was doing it.

i'm not sure exactly what's meant by the statement about lll's founding. the founders were friends. women got (bad) advice from their doctors, not exactly strangers, although they were complete strangers to breastfeeding most cases. and lll leaders are only 'strangers' until your first meeting.

I meant that 50 years ago, many new mothers knew no one who was nursing. Their friends, family, and doctors regarded it as primitive and old-fashioned. Therefore, they had to turn to an organization to learn how to do something that in previous centuries, they learned by watching their mothers, aunts, and older sisters.

And yes, the breasts were completely sexualized by the 1950's. This turned women off to breastfeeding even more. Only 25% of new mothers even started to breastfeed in the 50's. The breastfeeding rate of today is triple what it was back then. You can thank La Leche League and Mothering magazine for this.

This sexualization of the breast, unfortunately, remains to this day. We still have to overcome this. There are too many market forces who profit from it.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread!

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by njeb

I meant that 50 years ago, many new mothers knew no one who was nursing. Their friends, family, and doctors regarded it as primitive and old-fashioned. Therefore, they had to turn to an organization to learn how to do something that in previous centuries, they learned by watching their mothers, aunts, and older sisters.

And yes, the breasts were completely sexualized by the 1950's. This turned women off to breastfeeding even more. Only 25% of new mothers even started to breastfeed in the 50's. The breastfeeding rate of today is triple what it was back then. You can thank La Leche League and Mothering magazine for this.

This sexualization of the breast, unfortunately, remains to this day. We still have to overcome this. There are too many market forces who profit from it.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread!

Yes, this is quite true - you have to go back further than 50 years to find a time in NA when breastfeeding was common. I'm 32, my mom was born in 1952. Kids in her generation were brought up on carnation mixed with corn syrup. My Nana was really not keen on the whole idea of breastfeeding, to her generation (she was born in 1922) it was barbaric. I'd be very interested to know how she was fed as a baby, unfortunately, she isn't around to ask any more, and there is no family left.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by njeb

: I totally agree with this.

This is one of the reasons I became a Pagan. I just couldn't stomach the whole idea of women being submissive to men. In my religion, strong women are nurtured and cherished. Of course, the liberal Christian churches are much better than the more conservative, fundamentalist ones when it comes to the place of women, so I don't mean to paint all of Christianity with the same brush.

Which denomination are you a member of?

We haven't actually gone to any church for quite some time now. But we were part of an Assemblies of God church for a number of years.