Where to go from here...

[ThreeKidsinKy]

Hello, I'm new to this particular forum although not new to the Gentle Discipline philosophy. My immediate problem right now is that I can read everything about gentle/positive discipline but I have real trouble implementing it. I'm pretty sure I have some mental processing problems which might be factoring in, but regardless I just cannot seem to be able to connect the dots when in the middle of parenting situations.

I am the mom of 3; DS1 is 7.5 and twin DS2/DD are 5.5. I am hoping that I can just lay out some specific situations and see how others would handle them. I'll start with today's...

When we got up this morning, I let all three of them know that *today* we were going to clean up the playroom. I told them why...1) the front door opens almost directly into the playroom and anyone who comes to the door sees only what the playroom looks like and not the rest of our nice home ; 2) when the playroom is a mess they tend to migrate into other parts of the house and toys end up everywhere; and 3) I needed to vacuum the carpet because they took food in there and I'm afraid the crumbs will be attracting ants. I also told them that they could go outside to play only after the playroom was cleaned, and that we wouldn't be turning on the TV or the computers because they would only be distractions. I told them that DH and I would also be working to clean the house, but that the playroom was their job today.

I asked them how they wanted to make it work, if they wanted me to give them specific jobs to start with or if they wanted to figure it out themselves. DD said she didn't want to clean at all, so don't even give her a job. Both DS's said they wanted jobs, but DS1 said he was sure DS2 would do his for him. I pretty much ignored the side comments and asked who wanted to pick up K'nex/legos (DS2), who wanted to pick up cars/tracks (DS1) and gave DD an option of dress up clothes or the cash register and money that was all over the floor. This was at 10:00. I then left them to it, what should have been a 5 minute job took them until noon. If they decided to play instead of clean, I took that to mean that they'd chosen to stay inside and not have TV/computer privileges. I didn't say anything to them other than the occasional "As soon as you're finished, you can go outside." I challenged them to a race...I asked them if they thought I could clean up the family room by myself faster than they could clean up the playroom with three of them...but they weren't interested. I did it anyway...:-) and then cleaned up the kitchen and my office area. I gave them lunch, and tried to remotivate them to clean the rest of the room, giving them each a section of the floor that was maybe 10 minutes worth of work. I offered to help them, but then I ended up doing all the work. Then they decided that they'd rather go up to their rooms and play rock stars. At that point, I'm out of ideas. DS1 said he didn't want to clean up because it wasn't his mess (not true, although the twins are home 2x as much as he is); DS2 said he wasn't going to clean if DS1 wasn't going to; and DD said she just couldn't clean up her part by herself (but she's the one I tried to assist but in 3 minutes I cleaned up a whole pile of stuff and she hadn't put anything away).

It went on like this all day. I didn't fuss at them, just very matter of factly told them when they asked if they could go outside that YES! You can when the playroom is clean! and they would fuss and complain and whine some more and then go back and play. FINALLY at 5:30, the big kids in the neighborhood all came outside to play kickball and I happened to exclaim..."Hey! The big kids are out now!" and that's all it took for them to clean up. They were done in about 6 minutes, seriously.

But now *I* am worn out from the effort. It is like this every time, and I can't always count on there being something that they want to do more than they don't want to clean up!! It just wears me out regardless of whether we do this every day, every other day, once a week or even less often. But I cannot stand the mess and we have no other place to have a playroom. How would you all handle this?

I'm in the beginning/middle stages of reading/listening to both P.E.T and S.T.E.P. programs and I really feel like it is more our style but am not comfortable implementing the no-lose method just yet. I am very open to some ideas for that, also.

Thanks!!

Ginnie

[sebandg'smama]

Sounds like you handled that great! It is exhausting though.

I do not know how to motivate my kids to clean up independently. The only success I ever have is when I clean side by side with them. Try to make it fun (some playful parenting), put on some music, make it a competition on who can clean up an area faster.

Perhaps you need to pack up some of the toys and put them in storage, or give some away, because it sounds like they have too much to clean up!

[Deefodil]

I have this problem with 5yoDD. She just flat out refuses to clean anything independently. And by that, I mean, I have to be doing the exact same thing she is. We can't sit on the floor of the playroom and pick up different things. If I ask her to pick up train tracks while I'm putting doll clothes away, she insists that she can't do the train tracks "alooooooooooooooooooooooooooone." But if I help her do the train tracks, I actually end up doing them all myself.

Is there a pulling-my-own-hair-out smilie around here somewhere?

[snoopy5386]

I would have given them a time limit and if the toys weren't cleaned up by that time (let's say lunch in your scenario) then I would collected the toys myself and put them in "toy timeout" in the basement, garage, what have you for a while. I would have warned them ahead of time, given them time warnings (aka 1 more hour, 30 more mins, etc). If they can't be responsible for their belongings then maybe they have too many things to take care of.

[snoopy5386]

another option is to lay out all the things that need to be done besides cleaning up toys -sweeping, toilets, etc. and let them pick what they want to do. You can clean the toys if they are cleaning the toilet.

[mom2grrls]

I agree with the side by side cleaning, a big mess can be overwhelming to younger children, even at those ages. perhaps you can go through and weed some things out too, so there's not as much mess to make. I used to put toys in the garage and rotate every few months.

[ThreeKidsinKy]

Originally Posted by mom2grrls

I agree with the side by side cleaning, a big mess can be overwhelming to younger children, even at those ages. perhaps you can go through and weed some things out too, so there's not as much mess to make. I used to put toys in the garage and rotate every few months.

The side-by-side cleaning almost always results in me doing the cleaning and the kids playing, though. I used to be able to do that with great results but it's not working these days. I end up frustrated because I'm doing all the work! I weeded out a great deal of toys recently. We really don't have that much, considering I've got three kids with their own interests. DS1 is into building things (hence the legos/K'nex...and although we have a ton of them, generally they only have about 1/4 of them out but even 100 small legos is a big mess!), DS2 is into the cars/tracks and his dinosaur set, and DD has pet shop and dress up clothes. There are a few other things...baby dolls, stuffed animals, etc but for the most part the stuff that they don't play with has been given away. I think part of the "mess" problem is they don't always play with these things as they were meant to, they don't just build something with legos or k'nex, they will come up with this whole creative arrangement that will use legos, k'nex, and cars all over the room, pets as clients or guests, books as stepping stones, and then dress up to "play". They'll spend 2 hours at it, with all 3 of them cooperating and playing together, and then not want to clean up because it's such a mess.

[ThreeKidsinKy]

Originally Posted by snoopy5386

I would have given them a time limit and if the toys weren't cleaned up by that time (let's say lunch in your scenario) then I would collected the toys myself and put them in "toy timeout" in the basement, garage, what have you for a while. I would have warned them ahead of time, given them time warnings (aka 1 more hour, 30 more mins, etc). If they can't be responsible for their belongings then maybe they have too many things to take care of.

Thanks for the response. I don't think I could pull that off without sounding/feeling punitive.

[ThreeKidsinKy]

Originally Posted by snoopy5386

another option is to lay out all the things that need to be done besides cleaning up toys -sweeping, toilets, etc. and let them pick what they want to do. You can clean the toys if they are cleaning the toilet.

LOL...I would so clean up their toys if they would clean out my car...which is mostly their stuff anyway!

[ThreeKidsinKy]

Originally Posted by Deefodil

I have this problem with 5yoDD. She just flat out refuses to clean anything independently. And by that, I mean, I have to be doing the exact same thing she is. We can't sit on the floor of the playroom and pick up different things. If I ask her to pick up train tracks while I'm putting doll clothes away, she insists that she can't do the train tracks "alooooooooooooooooooooooooooone." But if I help her do the train tracks, I actually end up doing them all myself.

Is there a pulling-my-own-hair-out smilie around here somewhere?

Yes, it is very frustrating, isn't it? What is especially hard for me is knowing that given the right motivation..e.g. their friends outside wanting to play...they totally CAN do it, quickly and correctly. So it feels to me like when they wouldn't do it before that, complaining that they just couldn't do it, it was too much, they just don't want to, etc...it feels to me like anything I do to help them is like letting them off the hook. I can't shake that feeling, and I don't know if it's helping or hurting my entire outlook.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by ThreeKidsinKy

Yes, it is very frustrating, isn't it? What is especially hard for me is knowing that given the right motivation..e.g. their friends outside wanting to play...they totally CAN do it, quickly and correctly. So it feels to me like when they wouldn't do it before that, complaining that they just couldn't do it, it was too much, they just don't want to, etc...it feels to me like anything I do to help them is like letting them off the hook. I can't shake that feeling, and I don't know if it's helping or hurting my entire outlook.

I think that's really interesting and insightful, because I wouldn't have thought that kids the ages of yours would be able to do it all together… so you must be doing something right.

My son's younger but I find the best way is actually not to make a big deal about it at all but to expect the tidying up at the same time of day every day without a lot of fanfare. Whenever I set something up as a Big Deal it tends to become a big deal.

[momma_unlimited]

I don't have any magic answers for you, but I can say that I realized the same thing happens to ME that happens to my kids within my own house. If things are neglected so they get really messy, I feel overwhelmed and don't WANT to do it. I'd just rather go outside ;-p Then, when the "big kids" are ready to play (one of my adult friends is coming for a visit) I get it done really quick!

So rather than having so much stuff out for the kids, I put a lot of things that they enjoy but are not favorite every day items in rubbermaid totes out of the way (basement or closets). If they specifically ask for it they can have it. It is NOT punitive or toy time out because they can have it if they ask. Things don't get overwhelming and when it's time to tidy we all do it together. I don't really bother about if I'm doing most of it or not at this point.

[dianakaye]

These ideas may be too immature for your kids, but it's worth a try!

I don't know if this is too punitive for you, but it's a twist on the same idea as PP. When I was young my mom would give us a time limit and tell us that when we were finished that Mr. Gunny Sack would eat up all the toys we couldn't clean. When the time was up Mr. Gunny Sack (a big burlap sack) came out and ate up all of our toys while singing a song (Here comes Gunny Sack, yum-yum-yummy). That way it was kind of fun- I remember thinking it was pretty fun to race the clock and I probably left out a toy or two just to hear the song. It was never a mean thing. We could get our toy back the next week, too. We quickly realized it was more fun to have our toys for the week than to hear the song.

With my little bro and sis (now 9 and 11) we would play "lights off, lights on" and one kid would turn of the light and close their eyes while another put away a couple of toys. When the light goes on the kid whose eyes were closed gets to guess which toys aren't there anymore.

I always find that it's better to clean a little everyday or have a rule that you can only have one toy out at a time. Not sure if that would work for you.

When they do have the room clean, make sure to have them reflect on how nice it feels to have a clean house. I find that doing a check-in with how the kids feel before, during, and after a project help them realize the naturally good consequences of cleaning (i.e. before it feels overwhelming, during it feels good/fun, and afterward it's a relief).

I don't know how you have your toys organized, but I know that it makes cleaning up a lot more fun and fast when there is a place for everything (lots of bins that are marked with what should go in it). Maybe even having your kids help you brainstorm a storage system would motivate them to see how fun organizing and cleaning can be.

Hope one of these ideas could work for you!!!

[heartmama]

Well in that particular situation you unwittingly set yourself up for exactly what happened.

Assumption 1) the kids want to play outside, they are told they can't play outside until the room is clean, therefore they will clean the room.

Assumption 2) Because assumption 1) is true the kids will clean up once I've explained it needs to be done sooner rather than later.

You set up the situation so that the motivation, the ONLY motivation for cleaning, was to play outside. This isn't good or bad, it is just the way the situation is arranged.

The problem is that you set this up at 9a.m. and the kids were not connected to an urgent desire to play outside until the big kids were out there at 5:30 p.m.

If you only want to work with intrinsic non-parent created motivations then you really do have to become an expert at intuitively assessing the right moment to align what YOU want with what THEY want. There was an 8 hour time lag in this instance.

It would have made more sense to just ask them to clean the room once you spotted the big kids outside "Big kids are out--you can go play once the room is clean!" and then everyone would be spared the all-day-whine-a-thon.

I see two options.

1) you can teach your children to clean up when you ask them to do it

2) improve your timing so that your requests coincide with what they already want to get done.

Personally I need ds to clean when he is asked to do it--BUT--I have spent years subtly arranging things so that I harness the power of option 2 without divorcing it from option 1. For me the key has been to help ds learn that when I ask him to clean up it almost always works out better for us both. There is no way to explain this clearly in one post--

But in your example I would have thought about what I wanted (ds to clean his room) then thought about what ds wanted to do (play outside) and then the FIRST time I told him about the room being cleaned would be maybe half an hour before the kids showed up 'Ds before you go outside the room needs to be cleaned" and then one more reminder 5 minutes before the big kids showed up. I would definitely NOT have mentioned it right after breakfast, knowing the deadline was 8 hours later.

This way ds never gets into the habit of whining, delaying, or fussing. There isn't time--the exchange is laid out fairly and draws heavily on his own motivation. Over time (as in years) he just absorbed the idea "Mom asks me to do something--I do it pretty quickly without making a big fuss"--it just became a habit. He knows I don't ask unless there is a good reason. It makes living together very pleasant.

I hope this helps a bit.

[ThreeKidsinKy]

I totally understand what you are saying. I guess my problem would have been that I didn't know when/if the big kids were going to come out to play at all; it was just something I saw happening and knew the kids would want to go out for sure at that point. :-)