I am just so tired. - Page 2

[nataliachick7]

what the military is telling you is bs....they will say anything to scaremonger to get people to vax. like someone else here said, she was living in germany with her family and vaxs were not an issue. you need to research a lot, and fight them on this. i am 100% behind you that you shouldnt vax your kids, but you also need to tell them that you are going with your husband and they cannot force you to vax your children. if anything, claim you are religiously opposed to it. thats what i do for daycare.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by peainthepod

I don't know much about the military but I DO know that they can't (yet) vaccinate civilians against their will, much less minor civilians against their parents' wishes. At least, not without a court order. Is there a court order?

I think some people are misunderstanding the issue. The issue is not forced vaccination (they are not forcing the dependents to vaccinate-they are just saying that if they don't, they won't get medical clearance); it is Command Sponsorship.

Without Command Sponsorship:

The military will not pay for flights for the spouse and children.
The military will not pay for moving the household goods "with dependents"
The military will not pay for housing for the family.
The military will not pay COLA.
The spouse and children would not be protected by the SOFA; they would only be tourists.
Tourists have a limited time they can remain in the country; far short of three years.

So far as I can tell this is only a NAVY Japan/Italy issue, at present.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by nataliachick7

what the military is telling you is bs....they will say anything to scaremonger to get people to vax. like someone else here said, she was living in germany with her family and vaxs were not an issue. you need to research a lot, and fight them on this. i am 100% behind you that you shouldnt vax your kids, but you also need to tell them that you are going with your husband and they cannot force you to vax your children. if anything, claim you are religiously opposed to it. thats what i do for daycare.

I know several other "someone elses", all NAVY, whose spouses were slated to go to Italy/Japan, and have run into the same problem; these stories started popping up in Jan '09.

[MoonWillow]

I've removed some posts from this thread that were either UAVs or quoting them.
Please keep in mind where you are:

This forum was created to serve the needs of members who have made the decision not to vaccinate or are seriously exploring making this decision

[peainthepod]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

I think some people are misunderstanding the issue. The issue is not forced vaccination (they are not forcing the dependents to vaccinate-they are just saying that if they don't, they won't get medical clearance); it is Command Sponsorship.

Without Command Sponsorship:

The military will not pay for flights for the spouse and children.
The military will not pay for moving the household goods "with dependents"
The military will not pay for housing for the family.
The military will not pay COLA.
The spouse and children would not be protected by the SOFA; they would only be tourists.
Tourists have a limited time they can remain in the country; far short of three years.

So far as I can tell this is only a NAVY Japan/Italy issue, at present.

But is it legal, do you know? Is there a specific regulation that gives a military commander control over a serviceperson's children's medical decisions? I guess that's my (more pertinent) question.

Do the children have to be vaxed for the family to get medical clearance by regulation, or is this just someone on a power trip? What happens if they just ignore the order and try to slip through the cracks?

[lisalou]

How does your husband feel about this? Does he support the decision not to vax even if it means he won't really see you or his kids for 3 years? Surely if your child was injured by vaccines a physician's note documenting this would help on that end for that child. And if vaccines actually did cause the horrible allergies you claim then that would also serve as an excuse for your other children as allergies tend to run in families. I know b/c of my chicken allergy growing up I couldn't get a flu shot and as a result it's also contraindicated for my sister. I think you need to do some more research and talk to someone who actually knows about this issue in the military. I would also get a note from your ped about your ds's adverse vax reaction.

[FernG]

Originally Posted by peainthepod

But is it legal, do you know? Is there a specific regulation that gives a military commander control over a serviceperson's children's medical decisions? I guess that's my (more pertinent) question.

Do the children have to be vaxed for the family to get medical clearance by regulation, or is this just someone on a power trip? What happens if they just ignore the order and try to slip through the cracks?

The regulations are very vague and just say that the waver to not vaccinate need to be signed by the commander. Nothing says that the commander has to approve the waver. The regulations sound like it is at the commanders discretion.

[Hatteras Gal]

Originally Posted by peainthepod

Her child was injured by vaccination and now has severe food allergies that make his life much more difficult than it has to be.

I missed this part of the OP's story. I only read the first post. In that case, I would push for a medical exemption and try every single possible way to make sure my family was intact. I know what it's like to get the runaround from the military with vax issues.

[Mama~Love]

Originally Posted by marybethorama

If the OP has a vaccine damaged child, why isn't she looking for a medical exemption?

I can't answer that, maybe the OP can.

[kiara7]

Originally Posted by marybethorama

If the OP has a vaccine damaged child, why isn't she looking for a medical exemption?

First, most doctors will not admit any vaccine damage. Second, if one does, the exemption is usually only for one vaccine that caused damage. Third, siblings would not get their own exemptions.

OP, Emmeline, can the religious exemption work here somehow?

[peainthepod]

Originally Posted by marybethorama

If the OP has a vaccine damaged child, why isn't she looking for a medical exemption?

I can't speak for OP's particular case but getting a medical exemption is next to impossible. First you have to find an allopath who recognizes and admits to a vaccine reaction or injury. Good luck with that. Then, even if you can find a doctor willing to do it, you're usually only exempted from one vaccine and its boosters, even if you're not entirely sure which vaccine hurt your child. So you might not have to give, say, the DTaP, but you still have to do the others to be "up to date". Kind of pointless.

[MoonWillow]

I have removed more posts from this thread.

Please keep with the UA when posting. Remember the forum we are in.

This forum was created to serve the needs of members who have made the decision not to vaccinate or are seriously exploring making this decision.

Also, if you feel someone has behaved inappropriately, please report rather than responding to the thread.

Thanks!

I hope to be able to keep this on the board.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by peainthepod

But is it legal, do you know? Is there a specific regulation that gives a military commander control over a serviceperson's children's medical decisions? I guess that's my (more pertinent) question.

Do the children have to be vaxed for the family to get medical clearance by regulation, or is this just someone on a power trip? What happens if they just ignore the order and try to slip through the cracks?

Everything I read says that dependents have to get whatever vaxes are required for entry into that particular country (Japanese Encephalitis for Japan, for example, but there are none for Japan or Italy), but I have not found anything anywhere that states a dependent's vaxes must be up to date in order to get command sponsorship or for the military to purchase the dependent's plane tickets.

There is no regulation to be exempt from! It's someones power trip, but I've known at least 5 people to run into this problem. One protested and her dh was given a different assignment, one gave in and vaccinated, and I'm not sure what happened to the rest.

The military has a wide latitude to conduct it's own affairs. An assignment can be denied for any reason. Whether the military can blackmail a service member with "vaccinate your dependents or be separated from them for 3 years," hasn't really been tested. I'd probably follow the advice of that officer.

COMMAND SPONSORSHIP

http://www.48fss.com/DNN/LinkClick.a...O99U%3D&tabid= 138&mid=711 -

FAMILY MEMBER SUITABILITY SCREENING
OPNAV INSTRUCTION 1300.14D. SUITABILITY SCREENING FOR OVERSEAS AND REMOTE DUTY ASSIGNMENT

http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynam...s/1300.14D.pdf

DOD Form NAVMED 13001/2
http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/navmed...(Encl%204).pdf
http://www.militaryhomefront.dod.mil...NT/1601311.pdf

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NAVY/JAPAN INFORMATION

I did a search on the mothering.com vax board for "navy"; just look for my responses... I think the first one has my general miltary childcare vaccination information; the second has Navy/Japan information.

Navy PCS 1

Navy PCS 2

Navy Search

Quote:

Originally Posted by
Quick update:
We just went for our overseas screening (VA to Japan). We sel/delay vax. We are Navy. We were told we HAD to get kids up to date on all vax per CDC/WHO recs or they would not sign the Form 1300-2 form for the immunizations. it was an Army reg (not sure which one - dh may remember) which clearly stated they must be current per the CDC recommendations.

I would like to see the reg referenced. All that I have read up to this point said that the vaccinations are recommendations (except those required by the host country, which there are none) and are not requirements per reg (though you can be denied assignment for any reason).

K, I just found a copy of the NAVMED 13001/2; it says that immunization requirements are "assignment specific" and "meet destination country requirements" (there are none required by Japan).

Oddly enough, though they cited an Army reg. I don't know any overseas Army dependents with this problem; it's just the Navy.

FAMILY MEMBER SUITABILITY SCREENING
OPNAV INSTRUCTION 1300.14D. SUITABILITY SCREENING FOR OVERSEAS AND REMOTE DUTY
ASSIGNMENT
http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynam...s/1300.14D.pdf


DOD Form NAVMED 13001/2
http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/navmedmpte/nomi/swmi/Documents/Overseas%20Screening(Encl%204).pdf
Be aware that a couple of people have tried to use a section of a regulation that dealt with DODs schools, CDC daycares, and other childminding institutions that had nothing to do with dependents getting a medical clearance for an overseas accompanied tour, to deny a medical clearance for an overseas tour:



(Army Regulation 40–562
BUMEDINST 6230.15A
AFJI 48–110
CG COMDTINST M6230.4F

http://www.vaccines.mil/documents/969r40_562.pdf).
It's like saying "you cannot include pianos in your household goods and this regulation, regarding pcsing with pets, backs up my statement."

[moonglowmama]

Hi OP,
I am a former Navy wife, and we were stationed in Japan (in Yokosuka) from 1993-1995. I understand the difficulties with obtaining command sponsorship.

My husband, (then fiancee) had to get permission for us to be married, which took several months, and then he had to get command sponsorship, which took 3 months AFTER we were already married. And it was no easy process, because his orders did not include me. What he had to do was to go up his chain of command on the ship and I think he had to write several letters to his captain, though I'll confirm that when he gets home later. THey had to make an exception to the rules because like I mentioned it was technically not ok for me to come.

As you know, it's important that you obtain command sponsorship before going over there. And I can't remember but of course you may need it before they'll pack you up. Prepare yourself to remain here while your husband gets it worked out. I think if he respects the chain of command, and you pray, perhaps his chain of command will see the reasons you have chosen to not vaccinate and they will grant CS. There will be people who can help you get through the system. The ombudsmen may be of help to you, too.

I'm so sorry you have to deal with all of this. It really is like the old saying, "if the Navy wanted you to be married, they would have issued you a wife." It stinks, but that's the reality.

I hope you and your husband will be able to get through to someone who will see you as individual people. And I don't recommend making a big stink over it yet. Wait and let your husband deal with his chain of command quietly. They can make an exception more easily if its done quietly than loudly. ykwim?

And if you get there, you will LOVE it! It is a wonderful place to live, especially out in the economy.
Thinking of you!!

[Valrock]

Well, We just got back from our medical screening.

I'm sorry I didn't get back to this thread sooner... frankly I read some posts that had me in tears and I couldn't bear to respond. Thank you to those that have been supportive. This whole thing has been a roller coaster!

I asked around on our new base and found the most sympathetic doctor... the questioning went like this

Doctor: "Are their vaccinations up to date?"
Me: "No"
Doctor: "What's your plan for that?"
Me: "To not vaccinate them"
Doctor: "May I ask why?"
Me: "I have a religious opposition to the practice of vaccination"
Doctor: "Oh, okay... you may have to sign something for that"

In the end he signed off on the form for everything except for the "vaccines up to date box" and it got sent up the chain. We'll see if we hit any roadbumps because of that. He did sign that he recommended us all fit for travel to Japan, though.

I'll update again as it should be all reviewed within the next week! Seems like things are much easier here in Cali than they would have been in MD.

[Spectrolite]

Just browsed through your thread... and : for you that you had a positive day today. I hope your roller coaster ride starts to be less bumpy from now on

[MyBabySam]

Hello-I live in Japan (Air Force). We are not vaxing-however the 2 kids we did have when we came here were all caught up. But I do have friends here who came with children who are not vaxed at all. So apparently it was okay for them, I see no rreason for them to hold you up because of the same situation.

[Valrock]

Thanks for the replies.

Well... DH got called into the office today and they said they don't have a problem with it on this end but they are going to E-mail the base in Atsugi to make sure it's okay?.... We'll see what happens with that.

[phillytwinmama]

fingers crossed for you.

[FernG]

Praying for you!