please help me with my aggressive 4 year old!

[koalove]

ds, 4, has become incredibly contrary and even aggressive in the last few months. im not sure what to do anymore. im truly at the end of my rope here. he says no to EVERYTHING and it drives me nuts. every last thing we do is a struggle. getting dressed, getting to school, brushing teeth, going to bed. all of it. the thing is, he used to be a sweet, loving, gentle child! i miss my sweet boy! he hits us and kicks us when we try to talk to him about his behavior. we use timeouts but they dont help at all. i dont know what else to do. dh threatens him with a timeout about 10 times a day. the threat of it works better than anything else. what do you mamas do when your conversation looks like this: ~ds, its time to get dressed (or i give a 5 minute warning, as in, time to get dressed in 5 minutes) and he whines noooooooooo. i say yeas, were going to be late for school. lets pick out some clothes. ~ds~noooooooooooo! i dont want to!! ds, i need your cooperation. please pick out clothes or i can do it for you. so, after 10 minutes of pleading, negotiating, comprimising, trying to make it fun, i choose the clothes. then, he refuses to get dressed. he goes limp and lays on the livingroom foor. at this point, im wrestling him into his clothing if the threat of a time out didnt work. i am almost 8 months pregnant and he is just sooo big and strong. he hits me and fights me. he screams "im mad!" to anything i say. if i ask him to pick up his puzzle, its "im mad!" he just flat out refuses to say yes to anything. i have asked dh to stop with all the timeout stuff. he did better today. i feel like dh says no to him freuently too, to things that really arent a big deal. i wonder if ds is just trying to get some control over his life. people have suggested that he knows the baby is coming and is getting moody over it. im not sure he really gets the whole baby thing. but my biggest issue is that he hurts me constantly. im so sick of telling him not to jump on me. i cant cuddle him anymore because i get kicked in the belly, or smacked in the face. its getting to where i just cant stand to be physically close to him. this has always been an issue for us but now he is so big, and i expect him to respect my wishes when i tell him that xyz hurts me, please stop, and he just wont. is he too young to understand this concept? im scared he is going to jump on the baby, or hurt him in some other way when hes born. it is affecting my quality of life. dh and i are miserable, and i think ds is too. why is this happening? is is normal stage? how do i use gd to help the situation because i know screaming and timeouts arent working? thanks for any and all advice.

[GoBecGo]

Just some thoughts...

No threats. Either you warn him a time out is coming and then put him in it (if that's what you do) or you don't threaten it. If you threaten but don't do then he learns you don't mean what you say, which is the very opposite of the message you want to convey.

No pleading, begging, attempts to negotiate. "DS it's time to get dressed, pick out your outfit please" "DS you haven't picked an outfit so i'm going to pick one for you" "DS you need to get dressed now please". TBH i have dealt with the fighting/going limp by saying "DD if you don't get dressed we can't go to the park/play with friends/wherever we were going" and yes, on occasion i have spent all day in with her to make the point. She always gets bored after about an hour of refusing to get dressed during which i make myself a coffee and jump on here and totally ignore her. Once she realises nothing is going to happen that is alternative and fun she decides to get dressed. She is only 3. I have also, once or twice in more desperate moments (like when we had a dentist appointment we'd have to pay for if we didn't make it) gotten myself ready to go out, packed up my stuff, said goodbye and gone to walk out the door - she always wants to come then, but i am aware it is for desperate times when nothing else is working and not for everyday use (see "threats" lol).

WRT the physical hurting he's doing - what do you do when he hurts? If DD jumps on me i tell her not to and i get up and leave the room. Every time. She is getting it (slowly because XP ENCOURAGES her to jump on him). Was it ever ok/not as bad for him to act like this? Children do not realise rules change as they get bigger. If you tolerated it 6 months ago but now suddenly it hurts more don't want him to do it he IS going to have a hard time adjusting to that.

I do also wonder about his unhappiness - i find if i put a lot of focus on DD (i.e. sense she is unhappy and try to let her choose activities that will make her happier) she gets even less happy because she is too young to be "in charge" of the day and take responsibility for it. She often doesn't want to go out but she HATES and is miserable/angry when stuck in all day. She regularly doesn't want to sit and eat but she gets super cranky when she's hungry. SO SO often, even since birth, i have found that she is often happiest doing what i am confident will make her happy, my confidence seems to mak the difference. If she senses i am unsure, she becomes unsure, and unhappy. If she's bored and i suggest dough and she whines "noooooooo" i just make the dough, stick an apron on her and dump her in front of it. Within a few minutes i have a batch of misshapen bread goods to bake - i think sometimes she needs the opportunity to be contrary without the responsibility of making sure OUR (or even her) day goes ok. I try to think of her as water - i spend my day digging a channel in generally-the-direction-i-think-we-should-take and accept that sometimes she's gonna burst her banks

I am not any months pregnant! it must be hard dealing with all this!

I'm sure there will be other, perhaps gentler parents along soon to give you their input.

[Cheshire]

Great advice. I do think he is also processing the new baby on the way. Kids get much more than we give them credit for.

Sounds like you need to re-establish your authority. Not in a bad way but in a loving, parental authority way. Start off these changes by talking to him about it. Let him know that you are all frustrated with the way things have been and you're going to be trying new things. Remind him of this often so he's ready for it. Find ways to say yes when you can. Give him as much control as he can handle and talk to him about taking on responsibility so he can have more control over his life.

If he won't get dressed for school on his own take him to school in his p.j.s and bring a change of clothes. Let him know he can get dressed once he is there if he chooses. If his school won't let him stay in his p.j.s all day because it would be a distraction to the other kids then he will have to change at school but let that play out so he learns from it.

Don't threaten, just follow through with logical consequences. He hits you when you're trying to snuggle tell him it's hurts, you don't hit and then have him get down or you get up. Tell him when he is ready to snuggle without hurting you to let you know and you'll be back. Tell him how pleased you are when he asks to snuggle again, remind him how much you like to snuggle and be close when he is able to control himself. When he says he is mad ask him why. If he can't verbalize it at the moment tell him that's okay and it's okay that he is mad but he still has to pick up the puzzle and wait for him to do it.

One thing that works great for my son when he is struggling with something is we will tell him we don't like the way things are going either, we don't like arguing/fighting with him over brushing his teeth but it has to be done. We'll ask him for ideas on how we can make it better. This gives him ownership of the situation and we try to do his suggestions so long as they are reasonable. If he says "don't brush my teeth" we'll tell him that doesn't solve the problem - he has to take care of himself and to come up with something else. If he says "I'd like to brush my teeth in the kitchen" or "I'd like to brush my teeth in the middle of the day instead of at night" then we try it.

Get the book "Kids are Worth It" and both you and DH read it. It will give you a lot of ideas on how to try different things with DS. He needs to feel your gentle boundaries without being threatened with time outs. Obviously he is miserable, too, and you all want to be happy.

He needs your love and support to find his way back to his normal self and out of this moodiness - you can bet he doesn't like the way he feels. Sounds like you guys are willing to change to help him change and because of this you'll find the way.

Just remind yourself he is little and scared of the new baby and struggling to find his own way whenever you get frustrated with him and discouraged by his behavior. He needs you both to help him learn how to understand these feelings, know that they're normal and learn to control his emotions by watching how you guys control yours. A lot of times just a little empathy goes a long way. For example, when our son is tired and completely melts down over being asked to pick up his toys I'll tell him let's call a time out and ask him to come over to me. I'll hold him and tell him I know it's hard when your tired and tell him let's take a moment to just compose ourselves, let go of the frustration and relax - then when we feel a little better he'll be more able to pick up the toys without feeling so out of control. It took a few times for him to be able to be held and to figure out how to calm down but now it works great. And, he is even able to tell us he needs a hug sometimes before he melts down. The physical closeness helps him find his equilibrium and helps me reconnect with him, too, when sometimes I'm super frustrated.

Best wishes and hugs to you all.

[koalove]

thank you mamas! gobecgo~ we dont just threaten the time outs, we definately use them, but i HATE it. i have to literally carry him, screaming and kicking me to the timeout spot. then i set him down and he swats at me. all the while he is crying and wailing...and he dos the same old thing again 5 minutes after hes out of time out. i just dont think time outs are useful for anything except to make dh or i feel like we have control of the situation, or that we have done SOMETHING to flex our muscle and show him that his actions werent ok. i know this isnt a good way to parent. i just dont know an alternative. when he hurts us, we used to explin that he needs to be more gentle, tht it hurt, tell him why its important to respect other's bodies etc. now we get really mad because i know he knows not to do those things and i immediately tell him to move away from me, to which he says no, and then i tell him again louder, and again he says no, until i get up, and cary him, kicking and screaming, to another place. sometimes i move myself, which is easier, unless im eating, resting in my bed, using my computer etc. but then i feel like i am getting the punishment, and he has no consequence for what he is doing. i try to explain, in my more patient moments, that people wont want to be near him if he cant be gentle. he doesnt seem to care. the thing is, at least 30% of the time, he doesnt hurt on purpost. he jut can not mellow out and see where his body ends and mine starts. this is usually the case in the morning in bed when we are snuggling, or when im strapping him into his car seat, or anytime i have to get really close to him. he just doesnt stop flinging his arms around, or his head (he knocks me in the face with his head all the time~ ive had many bloody lips from his head) so i get hurt in the line of fire. should i tell him he cant come into our bed in the morning anymore? i imagine this will not go over well especially when we have a baby in our bed. playing rough was never an option for him. im really just not that kind of player. i have been asking him to be genle for as long as i can remember. i figures when he was 2, he was still learing. by 4 and a half, sholdnt he be able to control his body and his impulses a little?? or am i expecting too much?
cheshire~ i agree, we do need to be more empathetic. at this point, im feeling more sympathetic for myself! and exhausted. i have been trying to figure out logical consequences but you know, i find that the conequence are generally MY consequences. i end up being late for class. i clean up the mess (because as i said, he flat out refuses to do anything i ask) or i have to leave the space we are sharing. it seems like dragging in totally unrelated consequences is the only way to get it done. as in, if you cant do xyz, then we wont be able to do abc later, or tomorrow or whatever. that doesnt feel good to me.
thanks for the book idea. i will read it.
when he says 'im mad" and i ask him why, he says because we arent listening to him. we say this to him all the time, except i say "im starting to feel really frusterated because you arent listening." what he means by we arent listening is that he didnt get his way. its so frusterating. ok well this has been long winded~ thanks for reading this far. i appriciate you mamas!

[GoBecGo]

A few more thoughts...

As you describe the hurting/asking to move/moving scenario i was thinking what a lot of extra focus hurting gets him. It's not positive interaction but it's passionate interaction (some people crave reaction so much that positive/negative doesn't much matter to them). When DD hurts me i say "ow" and immediately move away. I don't tell her to move - her choices are to hurt me or not, mine are to stay there to be hurt or not. If he is lying with you and wants more interaction an in trying to get it hits you (accidentally or not) and then gets discussion about what should happen and then carried to elsewhere that seems like a lot to me. I am gone when she hurts. She is gradually learning that i am not interested in being close with someone who hurts me. Though it does break my heart that she has in the past cried because i have put her down and walked away after being hit i try to remember that i'm trying to teach her a forever-lesson. The fact is in life if you hurt people you will be alone - as an adult he will absolutely not have to go away if he hits someone and they tell him to, but they WILL go away from him. I think for my DD this is more powerful than asking HER to move because the message when she is moved seems to be if she hits she won't get to be on the bed/on the sofa/in the room. Whereas i want her to know that WHEREVER she is i don't want to be if she's going to hurt me. I want her to know it's so bad being hurt i would rather not lay down AT ALL than have to lay with her and get hurt, does this make sense?

Re: the lateness - try to get started as early as possible. I know that sounds daft, but i used to be often late and blamed DD (who concretely DOES make it slower/harder to get out of the house of a morning) and one day realised i was always about half an hour late, so i began winding up to go out half an hour earlier and i am far more rarely late now. This might feel an inconvenience but it does at least actually help (for us anyway).

Re: the mess - what is he not cleaning up? If DD doesn't pick up her crayons then they go into time out (visible but out of reach) for a day and when she asks for them i remind her "mama had to tidy them, responsible girls get to have their crayons, but if you can't be responsible for them then i'm afraid they need to go into time out, you can have them back tomorrow". This generally is very effective for us. For other messes there are similar consequences - if she spills a drink and won't help clear up she has to have a lidded cup next time, if she drops/throws food and won't clean up then *I* feed her (which she hates) next time, if she draws on the walls there is a crayon time out... The consequences ALWAYS feel hard on me, because she always has something to say about them and it is rarely positive, but overall the approach seems to work for us.

One thing i wondered, reading your posts, does your boy have any kind of sensory issues? He sounds hypertactile to me. Is he the kid who gets head-to-toe soaked when paddling, who gets slathered in mud when others are just a little grubby? Does he ask to do things like roll naked in grass or snow? I was that way, and DD is to. As an adult i can meet my sensory needs but as a kid i remember being crazy-rough/foolish about it because i felt like i couldn't get ENOUGH sensation. Things that help us are; time in a soft play area at least once a week where she can climb, tumble, jump and swing without risking herself or others, a lot of running (i.e. races for 100's of metres in parks or up the pavement, running for the bus etc.), swimming every week, and "safe" rough play, i.e. fake spankings, pin-down-and-tickle, rolling together on the bed etc. When she is too rough for me DP will take a turn.

I'm pretty sure that boys get a testosterone surge around the age of 5 and their need for rougher play increases which may well be another factor right now.

[koalove]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

One thing i wondered, reading your posts, does your boy have any kind of sensory issues? He sounds hypertactile to me. Is he the kid who gets head-to-toe soaked when paddling, who gets slathered in mud when others are just a little grubby? Does he ask to do things like roll naked in grass or snow? I was that way, and DD is to. As an adult i can meet my sensory needs but as a kid i remember being crazy-rough/foolish about it because i felt like i couldn't get ENOUGH sensation. Things that help us are; time in a soft play area at least once a week where she can climb, tumble, jump and swing without risking herself or others, a lot of running (i.e. races for 100's of metres in parks or up the pavement, running for the bus etc.), swimming every week, and "safe" rough play, i.e. fake spankings, pin-down-and-tickle, rolling together on the bed etc. When she is too rough for me DP will take a turn.

YES! i didnt even know there was such a thing as sensory issues! What the heck is that!? he is incredibly interested in soft/fuzzy things and loves being naked just to snuggle in his soft blanket. he covers himself in mud, does not mind sitting in freezing cold water etc. he loves it on the rare occasion when i let friends, or dh rough play with him, which is rare because im afraid he will think that is ok to do whenever he feels like it. he does not like to be tickled, or massaged. when he was an infant i tried infant massage and even then, he cried when i did it. how do i know if these things are abnormal or within the range of normal?

[aran]

Originally Posted by koalove

YES! i didnt even know there was such a thing as sensory issues! What the heck is that!? he is incredibly interested in soft/fuzzy things and loves being naked just to snuggle in his soft blanket. he covers himself in mud, does not mind sitting in freezing cold water etc. he loves it on the rare occasion when i let friends, or dh rough play with him, which is rare because im afraid he will think that is ok to do whenever he feels like it. he does not like to be tickled, or massaged. when he was an infant i tried infant massage and even then, he cried when i did it. how do i know if these things are abnormal or within the range of normal?

Hey, I just started a similar threa dto this before seeing yours. My son fits your description EXACTLY when it comes to movement. He moves wildly all the time. He jumps constantly. Lately he reaches over the top of his head and smacks the opposite ear/cheek with one hand then the other. He stomps and goosesteps a lot. But he also hits and kicks when he is frustrated.

I know my DS has sensory issues. I had him in occupational therapy for it last year, but to the OT, DS1's issues were too mild to be of clinical relevance. I think the OTs are used to dealing with kids that have even more serious developmental problems because of their sensory integration challenges. We tried the Wilbarger brushing protocol and DS1 linked it, but it didn't seem to actually help his behavior... I might not have done it religiously enough though.

The OT gave us a "sensory diet" list of activities for DS1, including things like jumping, sucking a thick milkshake, carrying a heavy backpack... all things he loves to do. This is reminding me that perhaps if I make more of an effort to get these things into his activity list on rainy days like today, his behavior will be better...

OP: PM me if you want me to send you a copy of the sensory diet list I have on my refrigerator.

[GoBecGo]

I would say that normal/not normal don't matter as much as coping/not coping. If he is having real problems being able to mellow out and find a place to be still then he is struggling with it a bit. It doesn't matter if 20% or 1% of other kids also struggle similarly.

For DD is it a matter of wanting to feel the whole time or being really uncomfy with certain feelings. My father (actually aspergers) me (towards that direction but not severe enough to be diagnosed) and she (as yet not diagnosed as we are dealing with it day to day) all have this. We all have our ways of coping. Dad is hypersensitive to light touch and wears his inner clothes (t-shirt, underwear) inside out so the seams and labels don't touch him. I am sensory seeking and like to be spanked (playfully but hard) hugged really tight (if my spine didn't crunch you didn't do it right!), to feel properly against my bare skin (mum and dad carried complete spare outfits for me in the car until i was 11 and still now a paddling turns into a swim every.time. i go to the beach ). Fine touch doesn't bother me much but i still have periods of being unable to sit still - i run or row or lift weights to get some of it out. I cannot stand the feeling of grass against my bare skin - i actually get a rash from it too, it drives me mental. DD seems to me a mixture too - some fine touch really bothers her, and other she welcomes, and she spends half her day undressed (which is definitely normal at her age) and asks to do things like roll in the snow (which we did once), get in the pan with the stir fry to "be crackled" (which we didn't, but i did rub her all over with foil wrapping paper, which is crackly).

All in all because these quirks are normal to ME (because i grew up with Dad) we enjoy an exciting and different kind of life with our quirkyness. I am that mad lady standing under the blossom tree with her daughter, both of us rubbing our faces in the dew-bejewelled petals for 20 minutes

Can he lie still with you if you strip him down and wrap him in his soft blankie?

[Greenmama2AJ]

A really good book that helps you deal with sensory issues is Parenting Your Spirited Child by Kurcinka. It's great!

There are also two books quoted all the time, and for the life of me I can't remember them now. I'll get back to you

[koalove]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

Can he lie still with you if you strip him down and wrap him in his soft blankie?

no. that would likely make it worse as he gets so thrilled at the feeling of the blanket that he want to rub and roll in it with a huge grin with his eyes shut....he really loves to get naked in his "fuzz-fuzz" blanket. he makes lots of funny squirmy noises when he feels snuggly. its funny and cute, but generally dangerous for anyone close by.