Unschooling a challenging child (update in post #186)

[choochootrain]

EDIT: Thank you for all the responses. Please read the update. I renamed this thread and hope it won't be attracting as much attention now, but I will leave the entire original post below for those who might be interested to read it.
















Hi, we've been unschooling all along. I love unschooling. I don't think anything else would work with my daughter. She's soon to be seven, in a few weeks, actually. I know it is the best thing for her. But I have hard times coping with my daughter's negativity and explosiveness. I avoid sharing things, because of her reactions. I don't want to take her places. I don't feel like starting new projects, even if she asks. I feel like sending her to school, but I know she will hate it, and she says she will hate it and doesn't want to go. But I don't know how to deal with having her at home.

Example. My son wanted to attend a community concert. She didn't want to go. For over an hour she whined and cried that the concert would be boring, that she wasn't going to go, and if she goes, she was going to "ruin" it for us. After about 1.5 hours she collected her dolls and said she'd find a way to entertain herself there. After the concert she kept complaining, for several hours, about how boring the concert was.

Example: Walking with her on the street, I see a pretty cat. It would be natural for me to say something like, look what unusual coloring. And yet I bite my tongue, because this is what's going to happen: "No, not unusual at all. And I didn't get a good look. Let's go into their yard and see it again. You never show me cats in time, they always disappear. And it wasn't even a cat."--all of it is whining and lasts for a long, long time.

Example. She wants me to start a craft. I start the craft. At first she's whining that I'm not doing it right, then she's whining that she isn't doing it right. For a long time.

Any outing which is not specifically for her, is HELL. She whines before we leave, she whines there, she whines afterwards. Going to a grocery store is a nightmare. She's bored, bored, bored. Anything I suggest "won't work." Even if I arrange the day that we can have and have hot chocolate and cookies after grocery shopping--she won't be happy with anything. She says things like: "I will be terrible in the store, unless you give me $10."

She does not like her brother, who's 4. She finds him boring, mocks him, is often mean to him, and is grossly unfair. They do get along sort of okay, because he's very accommodating, but she still does not like him. She often verbally attacks him and teases him. Even in her good moments she's extremely bossy with him, and not at all fair.

She's terrible at taking direction, thanks God we are unschooling. But even something like, "Do you want to hear how I'd do it?" which I try to never say, can provoke hours of frustration from her. She was cooking today, a soup. Self-initiated, her own idea. Then she wanted to put whole potatoes in it. I gently asked her if she wanted to hear my idea. She said yes. I told her about how different veggies have different cooking times etc. She agreed. Started cutting potatoes. Got frustrated that she couldn't make the cubes straight. Started screaming that I ruined it. She was upset for so long. Then she demanded unreasonable things--pour what I have out, let me start again etc. I was calm and reasonable for thirty minutes and then I just couldn't take it. I know I'm an idiot for suggesting things, I should've just let her make the mistake. Not a big deal. Normally I just let her do things. I don't even know why I offered my idea, maybe because she was so happy and we had such a good day, I felt almost normal. I felt like I could be myself.

She wakes up and she's upset with something from the very first moment. Today my son woke up first and was playing with her old inflatable bed, the one she didn't touch for 2 years. He even asked me if he could play with it, if it was his sisters. I said he could. He was just sitting on it, pretending he was on a raft. Her first words? It's MINE! Don't touch it, put it back, you are terrible, you're awful! And so on.

Her mornings are negative 80% of the time. I can't stand it. I try and divert, and empathize, and try to calm her, but I hate my mornings.

She's extremely possessive. Of me, of her belongings. She hates sharing. She was never forced to share, we've always been so respectful to her stuff. And now her brother is very generous and shares easily, but she clings to things. If something "hers" she won't allow anyone touch it. She categorizes the world into HERS and not hers and is all about material possessions.

I find it very difficult to find things to do with her or alongside her, that I enjoy. Lately I've been avoiding her. I know she notices. I know she thinks that I like her brother more. He's curious and easy going, and loves to do new things with me, and I can just talk with him and laugh with him and have fun. I feel awful about it.

She's fiercely dependent on me. She won't do things on her own. She wants to be with me all the time, but won't behave in a more appropriate way. If I tell her that if she wants to stay up with me when I'm up, she needs to be quiet, she simply won't agree. I guess it is good that she's uncompromising Yet she refuses to fall asleep on her own. And if I stay with her, it takes her literally HOURS to fall asleep. Her brother is not enough companionship for her. My husband is, but he's rarely home.

I feel when she's home, she makes my son's life miserable. He's very goodnatured and forgiving, but it is not fair that she attacks him verbally so much. And it is very difficult for me to remain neutral. Today she yelled, "Mommy, tell him that it is rude of him to ask me what's my doll's name!" And she was about to push him away. She was not understanding when I tried to explain that objectively speaking there was nothing rude in what he did, he even said "please", and even though she might not like it, I can't tell him that he was rude. He simply wasn't. She misinterprets like this a LOT. A LOT.

I feel so helpless. How can I unschool her and my son if I find her presence so toxic? My only idea is to hire someone to stay home with her for when I take my son out. Has anyone done that?

Other ideas?

[Ruthla]

It sounds like there's something going on with your daughter- I'm wondering if she's having a behavioral reaction to something in her diet, or if she's lacking in some needed nutrients- something really sounds "not right" with her brain chemistry. IME, when kids act bad, it's because they feel bad. Usually there's a physical cause for the bad feelings and actions (except for a few short outburts that are clearly related to something situational and blow over quickly.) If she's been acting like this for months or years, then I'd suspect a chronic underlying condition.

My very first thought is something dietary. My middle DD responded beautifully to the Feingold Program (a restricted diet plus removing offending items from body and household products.) I've discovered that wheat and dairy products cause me to get very angry and short tempered. Any allergen can cause this, but wheat, dairy, salicylates, and synthetic additives are some of the most common triggers.

[4evermom]

How old is she? Guessing 6...

The thing is with challenging kids is that school doesn't make it better. Sure, it gives you a break but the fallout can be way worse and make the break not worth it. Have you read Raising Your Spirited Child? Because she certainly sounds like one!

I remember going through a phase where I really just didn't tell ds anything. I just answered his questions but didn't volunteer info because he wasn't receptive to unsolicited advice and info.

[4evermom]

Oh, and nothing wrong with hiring a babysitter to stay home with her while you take ds someplace if she doesn't want to go and the extra money isn't an issue.

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

It sounds like there's something going on with your daughter- I'm wondering if she's having a behavioral reaction to something in her diet, or if she's lacking in some needed nutrients- something really sounds "not right" with her brain chemistry. IME, when kids act bad, it's because they feel bad. Usually there's a physical cause for the bad feelings and actions (except for a few short outburts that are clearly related to something situational and blow over quickly.) If she's been acting like this for months or years, then I'd suspect a chronic underlying condition.

My very first thought is something dietary. My middle DD responded beautifully to the Feingold Program (a restricted diet plus removing offending items from body and household products.) I've discovered that wheat and dairy products cause me to get very angry and short tempered. Any allergen can cause this, but wheat, dairy, salicylates, and synthetic additives are some of the most common triggers.

Thanks, Ruthla. She has nothing synthetic in her diet, no food colorings, no additives. But we do eat wheat and dairy. My husband does not believe in allergies manifesting this way, so it will be a hard battle, if we decide to do Feingold. He won't give up his favourite foods--breads and cheese.

She's been very intense since she was a baby. I'm going to take her to a homeopath in July, when we have the money.

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

How old is she? Guessing 6...

The thing is with challenging kids is that school doesn't make it better. Sure, it gives you a break but the fallout can be way worse and make the break not worth it. Have you read Raising Your Spirited Child? Because she certainly sounds like one!

I remember going through a phase where I really just didn't tell ds anything. I just answered his questions but didn't volunteer info because he wasn't receptive to unsolicited advice and info.

Soon to be seven. You guessed right. I know for certain that school will make it worse, for her. But my selfish reasoning is that at least I will have some normal time with my son while she is at school. I feel terrible just for thinking this. But here it is. And I do know that the follout will be huge.

I read the book. Everyone says how helpful it is. I couldn't relate to it. I don't know why. I need to reread.

Most of the time I don't volunteer any information, but this makes me sad. This is not who I am. I'm a sharer. I want to share what I learn, my discoveries. This make me feel like a prisoner in my own house. There's no joy to being around her. I constantly have to be on guard--not to say things, not to share, not to comment. I hate this existence.

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

Oh, and nothing wrong with hiring a babysitter to stay home with her while you take ds someplace if she doesn't want to go and the extra money isn't an issue.

Thank you. I keep thinking that we should do things as a family, but it is clearly not working. I keep thinking that it is not fair to my son when I take him with us to her activities, and he has to spend time in the car which he doesn't like, or wait for her, when he's too young to attend a class. But honestly, he doesn't mind, and enjoyes spending time with me when she's away. So a sitter for her, no sitter for him--they will like the arrangement, though I can see him sometimes wanting to stay with the sitter. And my daugter won't like it.

But then, I'm back to the ideal of a family. But that's just doesn't work...

Money is an issue, but I don't see an alternative. Hours and hours of whining--I can't take it.

[Whistler]

Honestly this sounds like a parenting issue rather than an unschooling issue to me. Having an oldest DD who is a difficult child and a younger DS who is an angel, I can relate.

I think PP's suggestions of looking to WHY your DD is so negative would be a good place to begin. It's hard for me on the internet to do as I can't see all the variables in her life. Is it a personality conflict? Is she jealous of her brother? Is she hungry? Allergic? Tired? Sick? Would she rather talk about something else?

I totally understand not wanting to be around a negative little person all the time. But maybe there is something you can do to help her become a little more positive and respectful of her brother and you.

ETA: Another thought came to me. My DD is most unbearable when her "extrovert meter" is low. She has incredibly high social needs and when they are not met, she picks and pokes at me and her brother just to have the interaction. Do you suppose this is what is going on? I solve it by TONS of time at parks, playgroups, church groups, playdates... it really helps.

[Ruthla]

You can change your daughter's diet but still let your husband eat what he wants.

You might want to read up on the Feingold site- many people react to salicylates that are found in many natural, whole foods. www.feingold.org Eliminating gluten (wheat) and dairy are separate from Feingold- Feingold is all about avoiding salicylates (only during stage 1) and synthetic additives (in stage 1 and stage 2). Avoiding specific allergens, such as wheat or dairy, can be done without following Feingold, and you can follow Feingold while including wheat and/or dairy products.

[4evermom]

Another angle, besides "Spirited" is "Sensitive." Personally, I think there is a huge overlap in many of these books, like they are talking about the same behaviors but coming at them from different directions. So you might want to just glance at the Highly Sensitive Person website. If you go to the children's section, you can do a little quiz to see how your dd rates in sensitivity. I didn't really realize how sensitive my ds was until he was 3 but he was always a high needs kid. Now I understand a little better why he reacts to some situations the way he does. And that understanding helps me not get annoyed AND it helps us find ways to solve the root of the problem, not just the symptom. www.hsperson.com

Sleep was HUGE for us. When ds is at all tired (or hungry) he gets completely unreasonable. He still needed at nap when he was 6, sometimes. It's much better this year as he is outgrowing his sleep needs. The same author as Spirited Child wrote something about Sleep, Kids, and Power Struggles. I might not have that title quite right but maybe that would strike a better tone than Spirited Child. I haven't read it yet.

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by Whistler

Honestly this sounds like a parenting issue rather than an unschooling issue to me. Having an oldest DD who is a difficult child and a younger DS who is an angel, I can relate.

I think PP's suggestions of looking to WHY your DD is so negative would be a good place to begin. It's hard for me on the internet to do as I can't see all the variables in her life. Is it a personality conflict? Is she jealous of her brother? Is she hungry? Allergic? Tired? Sick? Would she rather talk about something else?

I totally understand not wanting to be around a negative little person all the time. But maybe there is something you can do to help her become a little more positive and respectful of her brother and you.

ETA: Another thought came to me. My DD is most unbearable when her "extrovert meter" is low. She has incredibly high social needs and when they are not met, she picks and pokes at me and her brother just to have the interaction. Do you suppose this is what is going on? I solve it by TONS of time at parks, playgroups, church groups, playdates... it really helps.

It might not be an unschooling issue per se, but on the parenting board I might hear more of "just send her to school" advice. I guess I know I don't want to hear this, even if I'm tempted.

She's not terribly extroverted.

she IS jealous of her brother. I've been working very hard since the very beginning--tandem nursed until she was 5, for example. She has a jealous personality, she gets jealous easily.

I've read so many books on parenting. 90% of the time I remain calm, and respectufl, and help her deal and cope. I know she appreciates this. She's very self-aware. But there are times when i just can't handle this. This negativity gets to me. My head explodes. I feel like my life is torture.

I have a feeling she doesn't get enough sleep--but she says she's never sleepy, and it takes her a long, long time to fall asleep. She's always been like this, since she was a baby.

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

You can change your daughter's diet but still let your husband eat what he wants.

You might want to read up on the Feingold site- many people react to salicylates that are found in many natural, whole foods. www.feingold.org Eliminating gluten (wheat) and dairy are separate from Feingold- Feingold is all about avoiding salicylates (only during stage 1) and synthetic additives (in stage 1 and stage 2). Avoiding specific allergens, such as wheat or dairy, can be done without following Feingold, and you can follow Feingold while including wheat and/or dairy products.

Thank you. Following a different diet with my husband around will be difficult. He can be forgetful, and basically offer "forbidden" foods, if he enjoys them. I was on a no-wheat diet last year, for a bit, and he would literally bring a pastry to my face, and tell me to try it. Every other time he had something delicious. : This is very difficult, and I don't expect my daughter to have this kind of self control, and it would be unfair to her as well.

But I will try, because this can't continue this way. I will try anything at this point. I will check the site, thank you.

[Ruthla]

Have you looked into Bach Flower Remedies?

[Whistler]

This may sound too obvious, but have you told her how you feel? "When you say negative things and whine, it makes me feel bad/angry/frustrated. How can we work on this together so it's not so hard for me and so you don't feel so icky all the time?"

What reason does she give for her attitude?

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

Another angle, besides "Spirited" is "Sensitive." Personally, I think there is a huge overlap in many of these books, like they are talking about the same behaviors but coming at them from different directions. So you might want to just glance at the Highly Sensitive Person website. If you go to the children's section, you can do a little quiz to see how your dd rates in sensitivity. I didn't really realize how sensitive my ds was until he was 3 but he was always a high needs kid. Now I understand a little better why he reacts to some situations the way he does. And that understanding helps me not get annoyed AND it helps us find ways to solve the root of the problem, not just the symptom. www.hsperson.com

Sleep was HUGE for us. When ds is at all tired (or hungry) he gets completely unreasonable. He still needed at nap when he was 6, sometimes. It's much better this year as he is outgrowing his sleep needs. The same author as Spirited Child wrote something about Sleep, Kids, and Power Struggles. I might not have that title quite right but maybe that would strike a better tone than Spirited Child. I haven't read it yet.

I do know that she's highly sensitive. This is what keeps me sane most of the time--I can relate and empathize. But like today, when she freaked out over the soup--she was becoming hysterical. She was totally losing control. I had to threaten to dump her soup in order for her to start calming down. I hate that I did it, but I was her sounding board, her cushion, her understanding mommy for 20 minutes of yelling and screaming and kicking (out of frustration. She wans't kicking me, just the air.) Then I couldn't take it anymore. She wouldnt' let me leave--followed me everywhere. So taking my time out didn't work. Asking her to leave and calm down didn't work. Hugging her didn't work. Reasoning didn't work. Then when I said I was going to dump it, she snapped out of it.

She's adamant that she doesn't need sleep. I talk to her about recognizing her body's cues. I talk to her about how her body needs rest, even if her brain is active. She actively keeps herself awake. Through yawns and rubbing her eyes.

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

Have you looked into Bach Flower Remedies?

WE have the one for anxiety. I haven't looked into others. As I said, she is very self aware, and sometimes requests it. Thank you.

[RiverSky]

I'm no expert, but what about a child psychologist or therapist for your daughter? I get the feeling you could probably use a therapist, too, someone to help you deal with all of these emotions. A friend's daughter sounded remarkably like what you described and after a year of getting counseling, she made great improvements.

You haven't talked much about whether she has friends? Does she do well at homeschool park days? I would be tempted for you to tucker her out every day, take her to a park or an active activity every single day for 2 or 3 hours, and I'd hope that such a thing would relax her more. [I imagine that doesn't work for every child, even though it works for mine, though.]

I'm sending you hugs, though!

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by Whistler

This may sound too obvious, but have you told her how you feel? "When you say negative things and whine, it makes me feel bad/angry/frustrated. How can we work on this together so it's not so hard for me and so you don't feel so icky all the time?"

What reason does she give for her attitude?

I haven't asked lately, but we talked about it several times before. The reasons is, she says, not being able to control herself. That she feels so frustrated that she can't hold it inside.

Solutions--she wants complete, uniterrupted mommy time, always, forever and ever, she wants to nurse again, she wants to be carried in a sling (she's 50lb and very long), she doesn't want me to do anything that doesn't involve her or for her. "You gave birth to me, mommy, so you need to play with me ALL THE TIME."

I try so hard to fill her cup, but it is never enough. And lately we've been in this viscious circle where she's so toxic that I can't force myself to spend more time with her. I know I have to, I must. I have to be the one to break out of this, but as I said, I can barely stand her now. Because when I do spend time with her, she doesn't mellow down, like my son. When he needs me, and I spend time with him, I can see that he enjoys me and he calms down with me. When she is with me, she is as edgy, as difficult, as challenging as always, and this drains my energy so much.

So yes, I know, she needs more of ME, and I don't know how to ease into this while staying grounded myself.

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by choochootrain

Soon to be seven. You guessed right. I know for certain that school will make it worse, for her. But my selfish reasoning is that at least I will have some normal time with my son while she is at school. I feel terrible just for thinking this. But here it is. And I do know that the follout will be huge.

I'm certainly not going to tell you to put her in school. I know you don't want to hear that. (Although, for the record, I don't think you're a terrible person for thinking about it and just going by the info of your post it's what I would do).

But I'm curious why you are so certain that it would be so terrible? I mean, how could her behavior at school possibly be any worse than it is at home?

(For myself, even when my son was at the height of his most awful behavior, he saved it all for home. In the classroom he was - by all teacher accounts - a delightful angel.)

Anyway, just curious about your reasoning here - maybe knowing that would help give more insight into your dd.

[choochootrain]

Originally Posted by RiverSky

I'm no expert, but what about a child psychologist or therapist for your daughter? I get the feeling you could probably use a therapist, too, someone to help you deal with all of these emotions. A friend's daughter sounded remarkably like what you described and after a year of getting counseling, she made great improvements.

You haven't talked much about whether she has friends? Does she do well at homeschool park days? I would be tempted for you to tucker her out every day, take her to a park or an active activity every single day for 2 or 3 hours, and I'd hope that such a thing would relax her more. [I imagine that doesn't work for every child, even though it works for mine, though.]

I'm sending you hugs, though!

Thank you.

She does have friends, but she overreacts to them. Things that they do and are normal and not intended to hurt anyone, she thinks that they are intended to hurt her. She gets offended easily. She said herself that she can't forgive easily and that it takes her a long time to forgive.

She gets very excited to play with kids, but her social skills are not that great. Actually, her social skills are probably typical for a 6 year old, but she expects others to behave like adults, and thus has difficulties dealing with them.

I should try tiring her out in the park for hours a day. As I said, I've been avoiding taking her places, because of her complains, but I do know that this can't last forever. I just need some hope and encouragement.