I don't know how to parent without using punishment and rewards

[liliaceae]

I feel so lost. DH and I just watched the Unconditional Parenting DVD, and I agree with everything Kohn said on it. The problem is I use punishment (in the form of logical consequences, and sometimes sending DS to his room) all the time, and I don't know what else to do. I love the idea of "working with" instead of "doing to" but I don't know how to do it! I'm going to pick up the book in the hopes that it has more detailed information, but I'd love it if you ladies could try to help me out.

What do I do when my son (2.5 years old):

Starts tossing toys around the room and won't stop (and I'm holding his 2 month old sister).

Won't leave a public place to go home.

Refuses to change his diaper.

Dumps every single toy he owns on the floor and refuses to clean it up.

Draws on the windows/floors with crayon.

Hits/throws things at his baby sister. (He's only hit her once, and it was just a light tap, and a couple times he's thrown something light in the air trying to make it land on her.)


Thanks so much mamas, I really appreciate any help you can give me. This parenting stuff is hard!

[luvmytwo]

I am totally with you on this. I am actually reading Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting right now! I have charts for everything; on the fridge and in my kids' rooms. Rewards, consequences, goal's, chores, etc. I feel like I use the word "consequence" with them all the time and struggle with what "consequence" to give them when they misbehave or do not listen.

Just tonight my 9yo decided she was going to paint her nails when I told her to go lay down in bed and I would be right in to say good night. I was in her brothers' room saying good night to them and I could smell nail polish! I was SOOO aggravated!!!!!!!!!:

It is hard with a 2.5 yo because they do not yet understand, you make a mess, you clean it up. I would suggest getting down to his level and explaining why we clean up. Clean up with him so he can learn from you.
If he does not clean up, he loses his toys. If he writes on the walls and carpet, he loses his crayons.
I would also take into consideration that he does have a new sibling in the house and he is most likely acting out from not having the attention he used to have with you.

[Serendipity]

Originally Posted by luvmytwo

It is hard with a 2.5 yo because they do not yet understand, you make a mess, you clean it up. I would suggest getting down to his level and explaining why we clean up. Clean up with him so he can learn from you.
If he does not clean up, he loses his toys. If he writes on the walls and carpet, he loses his crayons.
I would also take into consideration that he does have a new sibling in the house and he is most likely acting out from not having the attention he used to have with you.

How is this moving away from punishments?

I think you need to look at the cause of the behavior instead of the behavior itself. Be pro-active. Prevent these things from happening and re-direct when they are happening.

Are you spending enough time together, really connecting? Are you providing fun things to do when you aren't directly engaged with him?

[library lady]

Prevention is usually the best thing when it comes to dealing with kids. Most of the situations that you list can be avoided or turned into something fun.

If he is tossing toys around the room, get a box and let him toss things into the box.

If he won't leave a public place to go home, you discuss why you need to leave and give him the choice of walking or being carried. It is really difficult for a 2.5 year old to do transitions.

If he refuses to change his diaper, perhaps you can make diaper changing time into fun time. We have done sound effects and all kinds of weird stuff to get our kids to be still and let us change their diapers. If you are expecting him to do it on his own, then you need to revisit your expectations because I don't think you can rely on a child that age to respond consistently.

If he dumps every single toy he owns on the floor and refuses to clean it up, then get down on the floor and start cleaning it up yourself. It is unrealistic to expect a child that age to be able to clean it up. Turn clean up into a fun time by singing a song about cleaning up, dancing, or tossing things into the toy box.

If he draws on the windows/floors with crayon, clean it up and try to keep stuff out of his reach. Perhaps you need to provide some paper or some place where he can explore his artistic side. I haven't found a way to deal with the drawing so I have learned to live with it. They outgrow that phase eventually. All of my kids have gone through that phase and it seems the less I worry about it the quicker they grow out of it.

All in all it sounds like he needs more physical activities. Does he have a place where he can safely throw stuff? I have found that disciplining is less of an issue when I have expectations that are age appropriate and realistic.

[rubidoux]

Originally Posted by liliaceae

I feel so lost. DH and I just watched the Unconditional Parenting DVD, and I agree with everything Kohn said on it. The problem is I use punishment (in the form of logical consequences, and sometimes sending DS to his room) all the time, and I don't know what else to do. I love the idea of "working with" instead of "doing to" but I don't know how to do it! I'm going to pick up the book in the hopes that it has more detailed information, but I'd love it if you ladies could try to help me out.

What do I do when my son (2.5 years old):

Starts tossing toys around the room and won't stop (and I'm holding his 2 month old sister).

Won't leave a public place to go home.

Refuses to change his diaper.

Dumps every single toy he owns on the floor and refuses to clean it up.

Draws on the windows/floors with crayon.

Hits/throws things at his baby sister. (He's only hit her once, and it was just a light tap, and a couple times he's thrown something light in the air trying to make it land on her.)


Thanks so much mamas, I really appreciate any help you can give me. This parenting stuff is hard!

I am by no means an expert on this, but I did love the DVD and aspire to follow his principles. I probably tend to err on the side of not enough discipline, but I'd rather be there than punishing my child all the time. It is possible though. I have literally never punished or bribed my 5 1/2 year old. So, here're my thoughts:

When he starts tossing toys around -- I wouldn't do anything, I'd probably let him just toss the toys around. It might irritate me, but I'd try to remember that they're his toys and he is 2 1/2. If I as having a really good day, I might manage to get down on the floor with him and make it into a game.

Won't leave a public place -- I would give him two or three warnings ("we are leaving in five minutes" "... two minutes") and then I would just say firmly that it's time and pack up and pick him up and carry him out if he doesn't come along willingly. If we are with other kids, we almost always have a sort of formal goodbye, which I think might help some. You could also try telling him what's happening next. If he's excited about seeing daddy, you could tell him that's why you're leaving (though I have always made sure that I don't tell my son we're leaving really fun things bc I want us to go home and have daddy time, I don't want him to blame daddy, kwim?). And I always try to say something to show that I understand, ie "I know you're having fun and it's hard to leave..." But in the end, I'd just pick him up and go, even if he's upset. And then talk about it after he's in the carseat.

Refuses to change diaper... I'm not quite sure how he would be refusing... When ds was that age, I normally brought the diaper to him, laid him down on the floor and changed it where he was. I don't think it normally interrupted what he was doing much and he never seemed to mind. If you 're already trying it that way, I guess you'd pretty much have to just do it, even if there's a little crying and trying to get away from you. Otoh, I'd keep in mind that diaper changes are mostly for their comfort. Could it be that you're changing more than you need to? If he was uncomfortable, maybe he'd want a change. I know that you're comfort level matters, too, though. It's just gross to have your kid walking around in a smelly poopy diaper, but maybe you could let the wet ones go unless he's leaking all over the place. And if he gets a rash, maybe you guys could talk about that and about how changing his diaper more often would make him feel better.

Dumping toys and refusing to clean up... I agree w PP who said that he's too young for really cleaning up. Even my 5 1/2 year old is too young to do real cleaning up. I can get him to clean up small well defined messes, like maybe a pile of legos on the floor. But if there were toys strewn all over the room and I told him to clean it up, I'd get nowhere. He'd likely get cranky at me and there'd be some kind of showdown. And I wouldn't blame him for refusing, I think he'd be really overwhelmed by that, kwim? So, if there were toys everywhere, I'd likely say "can you pick the legos up while I do the blocks?" Sometimes he'd help me and do a good job at it, but more often, I spend more time and energy trying to get him to do it and talking him through it than it would to clean it up myself. I think there is value to it, but it's not like I would ever expect him to "clean up."

Draws on floors/walls with crayons... He may just be too young to have access to crayons w/o supervision. I would not put the crayons away as a punishment. I wouldn't say "because you can't handle it I'm putting these away," but I would definately put them away. And then I'd bring them out when he specifically asked for them and I had the time and inclination to supervise. We still keep the paints out of reach bc I don't think my ds is ready to be responsible for them.

As for the hitting and throwing things at baby sister, that's a drag. I've got a three month old now and I'd be really sad if an older sib was hurting him. But, it doesn't sound like he's really going crazy. I think the key to this one is to empathize with him (well, that's probably the key to all this stuff). Think about what it must feel like to be 2 1/2 and not feel like you're #1 to mommy any more. It must be kind of devestating. Maybe you could redirect him by pointing out that his beef is really with you and/or daddy. Baby hasn't done anything to upset him so he must be upset with you. And maybe you can make a plan with him to sit down and read a book, just you and him, after baby goes to sleep or daddy gets home or whatever. I try really hard, and sometimes it is really hard, to never tell my older ds not to do things that he was able to do before baby bc they might wake baby up or otherwise be difficult bc of baby. My hope is that ds2 will learn to sleep through it, or we will somehow find a way for ds2 to sleep without causing ds1 to resent him. So far, we've done pretty well with that and I think it is helpful. I also make sure that I can lie down with ds1 for at least ten minutes without baby at bedtime, so we can snuggle and at least have that short amount of time as just ours.

[Greenmama2AJ]

Instead of punishment and reward I use a technique called the Bump technique by Smilanich and Bennett. I use this with my 2yr old and the teenagers in my highschool class - it's very effective and fits with Kohn's ideas of non-punitive parenting.

The idea is that for minor misbehaviour you use low key, low verbal responses. Give the look, make a short Ah sound, remove the temptation etc

For serious misbehaviour you know that the child has bumped up the ante (hence why its called the Bump technique).

The theory goes that people misbehave for 4 main reasons:
-Power
-Attention
-Revenge and
-Learned helplessness

Ask yourself - WHY is the child misbehaving? Then meet that need.

Did your child throw the toy for attention?
Then redirect the child by using positive attention. "No throwing, hey, let's pick up these toys together'.

Did the child throw the toy for power?
Then give the child some control. Negotiate. Remain calm. Be serious. "No throwing toys, hey, here's a balloon. Throw this instead"

Did the child throw the toy for revenge?
You need to address the childs anger. "No throwing, hey, I know your angry with Sally. It's not o.k to throw. It was unfair when she took the bike off you." Revenge is tough because punishing this behaviour won't solve the problem and you're unlikely to fix it unless you actually deal with the underlying problem.

Did the child throw the toy because they felt helpless.
"No throwing, I know, this puzzle is so frustrating!! Let's try something else".

If you try one thing and the child continues the misbehaviour, they are bumping up the ante. You need to reassess and control the situation. No yelling, screaming, lashing out. You're in control. Kids read when adults are feeling threatened (sometimes, that's what they're waiting for!) Respond calmly, respond fairly.

It takes a little while to get the hang of not using punsihment - but it really diffuses situations, most importantly - it makes like so much more pleasant.

Edited to add - It sounds like many of your issues are power struggles with a dash of revenge. When your child refuses to do something it is a power struggle. Have to run ... I'll try to come back later.

[ssh]

The one topic I have a fresh approach for is the crayons. My DD has been using paint and washable markers since she was very small. We use them only at the table and with paper. The same for crayons. When she was still using her high chair, we used paint only in the high chair. The art supplies are on the refrigerator. When she asks for paint, crayons or markers, I put them on the table with some paper or coloring books. The one time she drew on the wall with a crayon, I said "you forgot, we use crayons on paper". Then I used a 'magic eraser' to clean it off.

My DD is 3.5, I don't really expect her to clean up much. And don't mind if she's messy. By 3 she had gotten a lot better about leaving places.