Jews and Muslims -- Do you have a preference ...

[mammal_mama]

... regarding how Christians refer to what we've been taught to call the "Old Testament?"

I am wanting to get involved in more interfaith dialogues -- and have abandoned the old view I was raised with, that whatever everyone else believes, it's just hopefully their "pre-Christian" state, because everyone needs to be a Christian to be okay.

So, anyhow, I've heard it suggested that it's rather dismissive for Christians to break our Bible into "Old" and "New" Testaments, as if the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures are now obsolete. So one idea is to call them "Jewish (or Hebrew) Testament and Christian Testament."

Then recently I was dialoging with some Muslims and started to say "Jewish Testament" and stopped myself because I suddenly thought -- Don't Muslims also believe Genesis or something?

So then I was wondering -- what about a really interfaith discussion where Muslims, Jews, and Christians are all dialoguing together: what would be the best way to break it down then?

Thanks in advance for anyone who shares their great ideas!

[Liquesce]

I would be extremely surprised to hear a Muslim express a care. (Soon to be followed by Muslims posting to express their cares. ) And our accounts of Genesis stories contradict the actual Genesis text anyway.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

So one idea is to call them "Jewish (or Hebrew) Testament and Christian Testament."

I have heard them called the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament, which I think would be agreeable to all three traditions.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

I would be extremely surprised to hear a Muslim express a care. (Soon to be followed by Muslims posting to express their cares. ) And our accounts of Genesis stories contradict the actual Genesis text anyway.

Oh -- so it sounds like I can keep on saying Jewish Testament and Christian Testament without offending anyone.

[umsami]

I think most Muslims (at least in the US) use the terms Torah, Old Testament, Gospel, or Bible. I don't necessarily think there's a preference among Muslims as far as I know. Both Christians and Jews are referred to as "People of the Book".. which implies that God gave them scriptures. You'll find many of the same stories that are in the Bible in the Qur'an. Some are almost exactly the same... and some are slighly different, like in the story of Adam and Eve, there's no blaming Eve or mention of childbirth being painful as a punishment. There's no "original sin" in Islam.

For the Qur'an, you see a variety of spellings. Most Muslims spell it Qur'an these days, but I've also seen Quran or Koran as well.

[Magelet]

I don't mind when christians call the first half of their bible the "old testement", but it bugs me when they call my bible the old testement. (I'm jewish). I know it sounds strange, but I basically explain it, you don't have an queen elizabeth 1 until you have # 2, right? so calling it the old testement would be silly unless there is a new version. However, christians have two sections, so for them, calling it the old testement is fine. Basically, when people ask me something like "so jews beleive in the old testement, right", or "is your old testement the same as ours", I tell them, yes, but we call it the bible, and explain the elizabeth thing.

"the jewish testement" sounds strange to me, because the word testement isn't used by jews to describe the bible, but its ok with me. If someone said that to me, I think I would appreciate their respecting that we have just the one bible, and haveing a second testement is a christian thing. I feel like you might offend christians, since they also claim the hebrew bible as theirs, but idk.

[mammal_mama]

Yes, I seem to offend lots of my fellow-Christians these days, LOL. But most Christians do realize that what they call the Old Testament, really is the Jewish Bible.

I guess I am wanting to differentiate myself from the segment of Christianity that feels Jews need to convert to Christianity -- But I suppose that's a whole 'nuther thread.

So maybe Jewish Bible and Christian Testament is workable and easy.

[Adele_Mommy]

I am not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. It is my view that the question pre-supposes that the Christian Old Testament is identical to the scriptures of either the Muslim or Jewish religions, which I don't think is the case. The Jewish religion has the Torah, which is the Five Books of Moses, but they also have lots of other scriptures, some of which are included in some form in the Christian Bible and some of which aren't. Those that are included are not really the same, not only because most Christians read the Bible in English whereas most traditional Jewish study of scriptures is in Hebrew, but also because the Christian interpretation of the scriptures they call the Old Testament is completely different from the Jewish interpretation of their corresponding scriptures.

I can see where Jewish people might be offended by the use of the term Old Testament, but not using the term doesn't change the basic tenet of Christianity that it supersedes Judaism. I admire your desire for an interfaith discussion that uses terms that don't offend any party, but I am having difficulty imagining the topic of such a discussion that would require references to scripture. The three religions have beliefs that are offensive to each other without regard to the terms used.

In my opinion, the Old Testament refers to a section of the Christian Bible and does not refer to the scriptures of any other religion. The Christian Bible is divided into multiple sections, some of which are older than others. Hence, Old Testament and New Testament.

Regarding one religion "stealing" the scriptures of another, well many of the stories from Genesis are retellings of earlier stories from other cultures. That's what religions and cultures do.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

The three religions have beliefs that are offensive to each other without regard to the terms used.

In my opinion, the Old Testament refers to a section of the Christian Bible and does not refer to the scriptures of any other religion. The Christian Bible is divided into multiple sections, some of which are older than others. Hence, Old Testament and New Testament.

I have to agree. Christian Scripture consists of both the OT/Hebrew/Jewish Scriptures and the New Testament. Saying that the Christian Bible consists only of the New Testament is completely incorrect; but saying the Christian Bible includes Jewish texts labels those texts "Old Testament" no matter what you call them.

How about Jewish Scriptures, Christian Scriptures, and Muslim Scriptures?

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

How about Jewish Scriptures, Christian Scriptures, and Muslim Scriptures?

Sounds good to me!

Adele_Mommy, my understanding was that the Jewish Scriptures contain the same books as the ones in the "Old Testament" in the Chrisian Bible -- but just in a different order.

Anyhow, I suppose it's not that hard, if I'm referring to verses in the Jewish Scriptures, to try to think of the name of the actual BOOK they are in. But I still kind of like thinking of that part of my Bible as the "Jewish Testament" -- it reminds me of where Jesus came from.

And I've been learning a lot about the Christian church's role in fostering the anti-Jewish attitudes that allowed the Holocaust to happen -- it almost seems like many Christians lost touch with where Jesus came from.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

I am not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. It is my view that the question pre-supposes that the Christian Old Testament is identical to the scriptures of either the Muslim or Jewish religions, which I don't think is the case. The Jewish religion has the Torah, which is the Five Books of Moses, but they also have lots of other scriptures, some of which are included in some form in the Christian Bible and some of which aren't. Those that are included are not really the same, not only because most Christians read the Bible in English whereas most traditional Jewish study of scriptures is in Hebrew, but also because the Christian interpretation of the scriptures they call the Old Testament is completely different from the Jewish interpretation of their corresponding scriptures.

I might be quite wrong here, but I believe Judaism gives a kind of precedence to the Torah over other types of scriptures that they use? And many (or most or all) of those are commentaries of a sort, not meant to be the revealed word of God, so perhaps not Scripture in the same way?

If I've understood correctly, this would be comparable to the importance given to certain non-Biblical Christian writings in the RC and Orthodox churches, and generally up to the Reformation - the Church Fathers being the most authoritative, but also writings and commentaries of later important interpreters and saints. The Scriptures are always interpreted with the help of those things, but they are not considered to be revealed in the same way.

As for the source, Muslim writings are clearly not the same as the Torah or the Christian Old Testament. However, I think you would find that both Christian and Jewish scholars who study the early manuscripts of those books to make translations are using the very same manuscripts. What would be different might be the kind of emphasis and language used in translation, but both would be attempting to be true to the texts they found. (And some very important early Torah manuscripts are actually in Greek, strange as it may be.) So while the history of interpretation has obvious differences, I would hesitate to say they are actually using different texts.

But I'm not sure what you mean by most people read the Bible in English? Most people read it in their first language, or if they are able they read it in Greek and Hebrew. I actually have a rather bizarre little artifact - a New Testament written in modern Hebrew. My Jewish friend who thought it was funny brought it back from a trip to Israel for me.

[SaraFR]

Hopefully some other Jewish mamas who are more active in inter-faith dialogue will chime in and help out but till they do I guess I'll throw in an opinon.

Since we refer to it as the Torah, why not refer to it as the Torah. If you wish to specify not just the first five books of Moshe (Moses) but also the nevi'im (prophets) you can refer to it as the Tanach (or Tanakh). You can specify Talmud, comentaries or other aspects separately.

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

But I'm not sure what you mean by most people read the Bible in English?Most people read it in their first language, or if they are able they read it in Greek and Hebrew. I actually have a rather bizarre little artifact - a New Testament written in modern Hebrew. My Jewish friend who thought it was funny brought it back from a trip to Israel for me

Perhaps she means that most traditional Jews read the Torah in the original Hebrew, lashon kodesh (biblical hebrew). Others might read it in any translation (English being the most widely spoken one on this site) but not the original language it was written in.

For the record, modern Hebrew is different than Biblical Hebrew.

[mammal_mama]

I do really like the idea of Torah or Tanakh!

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by SaraFR

Perhaps she means that most traditional Jews read the Torah in the original Hebrew, lashon kodesh (biblical hebrew). Others might read it in any translation (English being the most widely spoken one on this site) but not the original language it was written in.

For the record, modern Hebrew is different than Biblical Hebrew.

Yes, that's what I meant. I shouldn't have generalized to English. Thanks for clarifying, Sara!

[Chavelamomela]

In Scholarly circles, the correct terms are "The Hebrew Bible" to refer to the Jewish Torah, "The Christian Bible" that refers to the Christian new testament (none of these parts are in the Hebrew Bible).

As far as islam is concerned, AFAIK, there are common stories, but the narrative is completely different, and their text is always referred to as the Koran.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Chavelamomela

In Scholarly circles, the correct terms are "The Hebrew Bible" to refer to the Jewish Torah, "The Christian Bible" that refers to the Christian new testament (none of these parts are in the Hebrew Bible).

The Christian Bible, in all Christian denominations I know of, consists of both the Old and the New Testament.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by SaraFR

Hopefully some other Jewish mamas who are more active in inter-faith dialogue will chime in and help out but till they do I guess I'll throw in an opinon.

Since we refer to it as the Torah, why not refer to it as the Torah. If you wish to specify not just the first five books of Moshe (Moses) but also the nevi'im (prophets) you can refer to it as the Tanach (or Tanakh). You can specify Talmud, comentaries or other aspects separately.



Perhaps she means that most traditional Jews read the Torah in the original Hebrew, lashon kodesh (biblical hebrew). Others might read it in any translation (English being the most widely spoken one on this site) but not the original language it was written in.

For the record, modern Hebrew is different than Biblical Hebrew.

Yes, that's why I said it was in modern Hebrew.

[Chavelamomela]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

The Christian Bible, in all Christian denominations I know of, consists of both the Old and the New Testament.

That is true, but when you are having an inter-religious conversation and refer to a verse in the "new testament" you will offend fewer people by using the words "Christian Bible" instead of "New Testament" (we've had these discussions before on this board, about how "NT" can be offensive to Jews)

And same thing if you use the term "Old Testament" to refer to something that appears both in the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible. Using "OT" infers that there's a "New" testament, which to Jews is offensive.

So I repeat, to offend the fewest people, and which is the custom of biblical scholars, you can use the terms "Hebrew Bible" to refer to the "OT" in inter-religious discussion and "Christian Bible" to refer to passages exclusively NOT in the Hebrew Bible, found in the NT.

[SaraFR]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

Yes, that's why I said it was in modern Hebrew.

I hadn't meant to offend. I was pointing it out for the readers as not everyone is aware of the differences between the two.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by SaraFR

I hadn't meant to offend. I was pointing it out for the readers as not everyone is aware of the differences between the two.

I wasn't offended, don't worry. Just thought you might have missed it - it can be easy to on a message board.

As far as the difference, modern Hebrew has a modern grammar, but similar vocabulary was how it was described to me. Is that accurate?