Follow up: reconciling Islam with feminism...

[MittensKittens]

So I just read something interesting in another thread. I am not sure if I am allowed to quote or mention which thread, but without going into details, the poster made Islam sound like an extremely woman-friendly religion. So, I would like to ask the muslims here whether they can reconcile Islam with feminism, and whether there are any muslim feminists here on MDC?

Just curious!

[Bluegoat]

What do you mean by feminism? I wouldn't directly equate it with woman-friendliness, as I think there are ways of looking at things that are woman-friendly without being traditionally feminist.

[MittensKittens]

Feminism is probably defined differently by every feminist. What I am specifically interested in is whether or not the Quran teaches that women are equal to men, and if there are specific examples of the oppression of women in the Quran, and how these are interpreted? Of course, current Islamic/cultural practices are interesting, but as with Christianity and any other religion, these have likely developed as a result of so much more than just Islam.

[holyhelianthus]

I think equality has a different definition as well for some people. To some equality is very literally sameness as in if a man doesn't have to do X than a woman shouldn't have to do X whereas equality can also be viewed more as a treatment of people rather than what each person is "assigned"- different/separate but equal (ie: are men and women still viewed as equal in Roman Catholicism when only the men are able to be Priests?). Some don't believe the latter is plausible in equality.

And now I am off to lurk! Very curious as to what L and U have to say about this!

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by magstphil

And now I am off to lurk! Very curious as to what L and U have to say about this!

Very different things from one another, no doubt, but we're used to that.

I do consider Islam very woman-friendly. But does any woman, or any really conscientious man for that matter, really participate in a religion which they believe is itself not woman-friendly? I'm not sure how anyone could look at a religion that excludes a whole gender from participation and spiritual rank as being something of the divine.

I don't consider myself a feminist though, not per se, so I can't really talk about reconciling.

A lot of Muslim women I know do prefer using the word equity to equality. To that effect you might be interested in Gender Equity in Islam. It's an apologist booklet, and suffers all the lack of depth and sometimes selective information that's pretty inherent to both apologists and booklets, but IIRC it's a fair enough overview overall.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

But does any woman, or any really conscientious man for that matter, really participate in a religion which they believe is itself not woman-friendly? I'm not sure how anyone could look at a religion that excludes a whole gender from participation and spiritual rank as being something of the divine.

This is a central question, certainly. If somebody is still a Muslim, it follows that they find the religion's beliefs about women and gender equality acceptable. I have heard from a couple of women who considered Islam very anti-woman, but they were no longer really practicing Muslims, for that very reason. I guess the opposing view would have to come from feminist ex-Muslims.

[mammal_mama]

Subbing to learn more.

[MahdokhtII]

There is a growing movement of Muslim women in different parts of the globe who are seeking to develop an Islamic feminism based on deconstructing and reinterpreting patriarchal readings of Qur'an and hadith (recorded deeds and words of the Prophet that are separate from the divinely revealed word of the Qur'an). They seek to establish equality in culture and law in ways that work with, instead of against, the Qur'an especially. Amina Wadud has written two important books on the subject.

I continue to spend a good bit of time studying them. While I'm not really convinced of many of their arguments, I support movements to cleanse Islamic laws of interpretations that are oppressive toward anyone as I believe them to contradict the spirit, and sometimes the letter, of the Qur'an and hadith.

I like to keep it on the low low, but really, I am a feminist. I never really use the word, though, because I am primarily anti-oppression and I will not prioritize the oppression of women over racial oppression, class oppression etc. This stance is informed by my faith. I do know Muslim women who *do* consider themselves feminist w/o reservation. They have "reconciled" their Islam with feminism in a variety of ways. Some outright reject certain aspects of the faith, others reject certain aspects of feminism, others believe that feminism is a big enough tent to include Muslim women...

One thing that must be remembered when talking about Islam and Islamic movements is that they are culture specific. As an American Muslim woman, my struggles are very different than an Iranian woman, who is dealing with different cultural issues than an Indonesian woman, who is addressing different issues than an Egyptian woman and so on and so forth. Like all feminist discouse, class can not be excluded from understanding global Muslim feminism.

[umsami]

IMHO, if you compare the actual texts of the Bible vs. the Qur'an, then yes... Islam is much more woman-friendly. It was definitely a feminist religion in the 7th century when it was founded.

Women are specifically given the right to inheritance...which did not exist in the West...as property almost always went to the elder son or male heirs.

Women had the right to own property. And as noted by Harvard law professor, Noel Feldman..."As for sexism, the common law long denied married women any property rights or indeed legal personality apart from their husbands. When the British applied their law to Muslims in place of Shariah, as they did in some colonies, the result was to strip married women of the property that Islamic law had always granted them — hardly progress toward equality of the sexes."

Women were encouraged to be educated...as education was valued for both men and women. They were both encouraged to learn the Qur'an...and one of the earliest scholars, for lack of a better word, in Islam was a woman...the Prophet's youngest wife, Aisha.

Women were given a choice in marriage...and could not be married without their consent.

Female infanticide was banned in the establishment of Islam... which was a very common practice at the time. Also, it's worth noting that Prophet Muhammad only had surviving female children...which he doted on...which also helped negate some of the male-child superiority (although this does still exist in many cultures).

The dowry in Islam (known as mahr) is given to the Bride... it is not a payment made by the Bride's family to the groom or groom's family. This money is hers to do with what she likes.

Women were given the right to divorce in Islam as well.

Prophet Muhammad's first wife was 15 years older than he. Many of his other wives were widowed or divorced. Thus, although it didn't totally obliterate it, barriers to marrying older woman, divorced and widowed women were broken.

Muslim women founded numerous universities including the University of Al-Karoune in Morocco in the 9th century. Muslim women were earning degrees and acting as teachers at University in the 13th century.

Muslim women keep all of her possessions upon marriage (no transfer of property)...and in many Muslim countries (as well as the US) keep her own name as well. (Which seems rather feminist to me.)

There have been many women heads of state in modern times... Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and Turkey.

With all of that, you have to contrast with how many use Islam to harm/hinder women. Do I think it was the intention of Prophet Muhammad or even God? No... but it happens. And it is happening a lot in certain parts of the world right now. Some people feel that two women are needed as witnesses to one man... some apply this only to financial transactions, other to all transactions. Yet I have to wonder... I have an MBA and BBA in Int'l finance. My DH is clueless about all things financial. Yet somehow, his testimony would be worth more than mine? Even if we go back to the time of the Prophet, I'd have to believe that Khadijah, the Prophet's first wife and a businessswoman, would be able to be a better witness on a financial matter than many men. I still have no idea how the Taliban even gets away with throwing acid on school girls or banning girl's schools. I have no idea how honor killings are justified, when Islamic shariah specifically goes against any sort of vigilante justice... heck, it requires four witnesses for adultery. (Who invites witnesses??

I think one issue in the States is that Americans never see the diversity of Islam. The largest Muslim country is not in the Middle East, it's Indonesia. It has more Muslims than the entire Middle East combined. The next three largest countries are all in Asia (Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh). The fifth largest Muslim country is the very secular Turkey. After Turkey, there's finally a Middle Eastern Muslm country, Egypt. We rarely see Islam from Indonesia portrayed in this country. We rarely hear about Indonesia and Turkey in this country... and they are two successful Muslim-majority countries.

[UmmIbrahim]

Actually Islam is the original feminist movement and I think every Muslim out there is a feminist. maybe not in the Western sense but in the sense of all women deserve the rights to work, obtain education and choose their own lives while being free from sexual and verbal harrassment because they are women.

I dont think any of us need to go around and tout ourselves as being feminist in the western sense, we just are because we are Muslim.

[MittensKittens]

Thanks so much for your replies. Umsami, I found your post really eye opening and it has given me a lot to think about. UmmIbrahim too, it is very interesting to look at Islam as a feminist movement, and I certainly consider the issues you mention to be feminist issues! It is fascinating how culture influences the way in which religion is practiced too. I am so sorry I didn't stick with that "read the Quran in a year" thread, I really should have.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by umsami

IMHO, if you compare the actual texts of the Bible vs. the Qur'an, then yes... Islam is much more woman-friendly. It was definitely a feminist religion in the 7th century when it was founded.
<skip>
With all of that, you have to contrast with how many use Islam to harm/hinder women. Do I think it was the intention of Prophet Muhammad or even God? No... but it happens. And it is happening a lot in certain parts of the world right now. <skip> I still have no idea how the Taliban even gets away with throwing acid on school girls or banning girl's schools. I have no idea how honor killings are justified, when Islamic shariah specifically goes against any sort of vigilante justice...

I think one issue in the States is that Americans never see the diversity of Islam.

This is why it is almost impossible for an "outsider" like myself to draw a conclusion on whether Islam is pro-woman or not.
(A) Nice people like Umsami say that what Islam/the Koran "really" teaches is freedom, respect, education, and protection for women.
(B) At the same time, quite a few Muslim clerics and scholars insist that what Islam/the Koran "really" teaches is what I would call oppression of women, and have been able to get entire governments to put their beliefs into law.
Side A would argue that the anti-woman aspects are due to cultural influences, and do not represent real Islam.
However, I assume Side B would claim that feminist Muslims are, likewise, culturally influenced, being Westernized or accepting modern modes of thought, and losing the strict understanding of Islam.
I am in no position to decide what constitutes "real" Islam, so all I can conclude is that in some parts of the world, Islam is hateful to women; and in other parts, it is more or less benevolent to women.

[1jooj]

umsami and madokhtII summed things up beautifully.

I consider myself a feminist. I am a Muslim.

I feel the tensions day-to-day, especially in conversations with my dh. Just this weekend there was a conversation about a friend who is changing her last name to her h's after many years married. The h claimed among men that "he" is changing his wife's name to his. He was about laughed out of the room by the rest of the men, and they went on to discuss why their wives chose to change their last names (and in my dh's case, why I am so happy not to).

As our family life evolves, I am beginning to see the practical wisdom of some of the verses that have caused me to question. It's too personal and long-winded to go into here, but I am one who calls myself both Muslim and feminist, absolutely and without pause.

[kangamitroo]

Originally Posted by umsami

With all of that [the wonderful examples of positive practices cited by umsami], you have to contrast with how many use Islam to harm/hinder women. Do I think it was the intention of Prophet Muhammad or even God? No... but it happens. And it is happening a lot in certain parts of the world right now. .....I have no idea how honor killings are justified, when Islamic shariah specifically goes against any sort of vigilante justice... heck, it requires four witnesses for adultery. (Who invites witnesses??

i am learning about Islam, reading as much as i can, but am an outsider. nonetheless, i have read enough that it seems very clear to me that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh was a protector of women. that if he could see what some clerics and others do in the name of Islam, he would be grieved.

it seems to me that the violent practices that various govts condone (or at least do nothing to stop or discourage) are decidedly unislamic. again, i am an outsider, but violence is not unique to muslim men. the particular forms that violence in the name of religion takes in Africa, Asia, Middle East seems like misogynist tribal customs that do not bring any glory to God. (i am thinking especially of honor killings, and the treatment of women who have been raped.) they seem like the very practices that the Prophet Muhammad discouraged during his life.

i am very curious to learn about shariah, to know how much of the negative practices could be abandoned, while still retaining positive aspects of religious law. here is my hope: that human rights law could be accepted fully rather than rejected as "modernist" or as an invasion of colonial powers, human rights law perhaps even embraced as a positive part of the Prophet's way of living.

and i say this knowing that honor killings are not confined to one place, and that not all muslims support such practices. i want to see women free to practice their faith and be safe from harm, whatever their faith is.