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Physician incentives - Page 6

post #101 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiara7 View Post
Seriously, if doctors lose money on vaccines, why do they put up such a fight when someone doesn't want to vaccinate? They will be making more money per visit for a non-vax patient then the vax patient.
Ah, because they believe in them? Why do you put up such a fight to not vaccinate? Because you believe in not vaccinating. And maybe some of the belief is peer pressure or professional pressure and not stepping outside of the box.
post #102 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post
1. Doctors "push" vaccines because the vast majority of them believe that they are beneficial to people's health. It is as simple as that.
I would also say most people SEEK doctors for vaccines because THEY believe in them. And you can't go around calling everyone stupid just because their choices don't align with with your choice to not vaccinate which is based on your belief that vaccines are bad for one's health. (the generic "you" here.)
post #103 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by anewmama View Post
Ah, because they believe in them? Why do you put up such a fight to not vaccinate? Because you believe in not vaccinating. And maybe some of the belief is peer pressure or professional pressure and not stepping outside of the box.
I agree with you here, however I think the "pushing" is due more to professional pressure and fear of deviating and not stepping out of the box and less to the the fact they believe in them. One does not have to resort to harrassment, belittling, rudeness and downright abuse sometimes to let someone know they believe in something. A doctor can believe in vaccines, tell the parent why they believe in them, how important they think they are and why and then shut up about it. They do not have to treat parents like idiots. What they need to do is respect parental choice. Many of them do not. I have no problem with a doctor that gives me the vaccine speech. I will happily listen to whatever they have to say if ultimately they respect my choice and not harrass me about it everytime I come in. There are doctors out there that do this. They should be the norm, not the exception.
post #104 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by anewmama View Post
I would also say most people SEEK doctors for vaccines because THEY believe in them. And you can't go around calling everyone stupid just because their choices don't align with with your choice to not vaccinate which is based on your belief that vaccines are bad for one's health. (the generic "you" here.)
Again I agree but how come the same doesn't apply the other way around??? Parents who choose not to vaccinate are called stupid and worse. I suppose what's good for the goose....
post #105 of 124
Naw, that's just not the way to go IMO. What does that accomplish? How does it help to make yourself be understood? It's just a vicious circle then with doctors implying you are stupid and this helps no one. take the high road.
post #106 of 124
I found it to be very interesting that my family doc was perfectly fine with our no vaccine stance except that chicken pox vaccine. For some reason that one was VERY important.

I am at a loss to explain why he would push for this one and none of the others if there was not some kind of incentive.
post #107 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by an_domhan View Post
Science has not been granted the power to force others to turn their backs on logic and reason.
This is my new signature. Thank you for such a simple and eloquent statement.
post #108 of 124
It goes further than that. Medical schools get contributions from pharmaceutical companies, who have huge influence over how medicine is taught, therefore influencing how doctors think diseases should be treated and which medications are thought to be superior.

Some medical schools are now refusing to accept money from pharmaceutical companies.
post #109 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post
OK- speaking as a doctor....

1. We do not get kickbacks from pharma companies for prescribing, or giving vaccinations. It is illegal. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

2. I lose money on vaccinations. The cost of buying, storing, and administering is more than what I make giving them.

3. If you think pediatrics is a lucrative field, you're sadly mistaken. It is the lowest-paying medical specialty.

I'm sure no one here will believe me. But it's true.
I believe you!
post #110 of 124
I didn't read the whole thread.

I love my pediatrician for just this reason. He vaxes most patients (we don't and he doesn't harass us) and he wrote Infant and Toddler Sleep for Dummies, which isn't very AP but his website and office say this:

Quote:
In order to provide our patients the best uninfluenced information that science has to offer, we do not accept samples of drugs, advertising tchotchkes, money, food, or any item from outside vendors.
http://www.advancedped.com/

There are no pro-drug posters, pens, pamphlets, plastic model ears and such. I find this very respectable. He could be getting free lunches, pens, and other crap that gives the appearance of impropriety.
post #111 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
The issue was the peer review process. I am glad that the peer review process exists and that pseudoscience is more likely to not be printed because of this.
I don't think that peer review deserves your esteem. I work in information science and peer review is a terribly antiquated and flawed system. I did my Master's thesis on this topic comparing the problem in the physics community vs. chemical/bio/medical fields. The problem is much greater in research that has market value. For example vaccine research is much more likely to have erroneous articles are conflicts of interest in referring in say, particle physics - no one is going to make money on the latest quark, kwim?

I wanted to link some of the actual research into the peer review process but it was all pay-to-read.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060802385.html
post #112 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by gardenmom View Post
This is my new signature. Thank you for such a simple and eloquent statement.
Erhm... but science *is* logic and reason.
post #113 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by prettypixels View Post
Erhm... but science *is* logic and reason.
Well, technically, logic and reason is philosophy. Science is fundamentally a method of data collection, and logic and reason support that method of data collection as being the best way we have of understanding the natural universe.
post #114 of 124
Quote:
I don't think anyone is arguing that docs don't receive kickbacks/incentives/whatever you want to call them from drug and medical equipment companies. I think that what's in dispute is that it's happening in regards to vaccines.
I'm arguing that. My friend who is a Ped accepts nothing. She has families in her practice that do not vac (although she recommends it.)

My friend has read the same things everyone else reads and her conclusion is that vaccines are worth the risk. I'm confused as to why that seems so impossible that it must be a combination of being dazzled by incentives and strong armed by the AMA that is "really" motivating her.
post #115 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thisbirdwillfly View Post
I'm arguing that. My friend who is a Ped accepts nothing. She has families in her practice that do not vac (although she recommends it.)

My friend has read the same things everyone else reads and her conclusion is that vaccines are worth the risk. I'm confused as to why that seems so impossible that it must be a combination of being dazzled by incentives and strong armed by the AMA that is "really" motivating her.
I have no doubt that most doctors believe that vaccines are worth the risk. I have a friend going through med school right now. This is what they are taught in med school. I believed it too because that's what I was taught by the medical establishment. Most people take what thier doctors tell them as gospel.
post #116 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by prettypixels View Post
Erhm... but science *is* logic and reason.
Science requires any observation that one considers to be either, to be supported by evidence... regardless.

I could make the logical assumption that some people that come into contact with disease causing agents become ill and some don't, but in order for the statement to have any bearing in the eyes of Science, I must have evidence to support it. I don't. Doesn't make the statement any less logical.
post #117 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thisbirdwillfly View Post
I'm arguing that. My friend who is a Ped accepts nothing. She has families in her practice that do not vac (although she recommends it.)

My friend has read the same things everyone else reads and her conclusion is that vaccines are worth the risk. I'm confused as to why that seems so impossible that it must be a combination of being dazzled by incentives and strong armed by the AMA that is "really" motivating her.
It's not impossible to believe that a few doctors have actually done research on their own and weighed the risk/benefit and come to their own conclusion that vaccinating may be worth the risk. However, what you're writing about your friend is that she understands and accepts that there *IS* a risk, and if she is as honest as you say, she is also telling her patients that fact as part of informed consent. She is also honoring their decision to make their own educated choice.

Because the 'benefits' of vaccination have been drilled home by so many official organizations, most doctors won't even concede the fact that risk is part of the equation, despite the fact that it's written right on each and every vaccine insert.
post #118 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by an_domhan View Post
Science requires any observation that one considers to be either, to be supported by evidence... regardless.

I could make the logical assumption that some people that come into contact with disease causing agents become ill and some don't, but in order for the statement to have any bearing in the eyes of Science, I must have evidence to support it. I don't. Doesn't make the statement any less logical.
Thank you.

The spirit of the statement was a reminder to me that a scientific study that is designed with a particular end result in mind is not really science (for example, a study with no true placebo, like many Autism "studies"). As a human outside of the scientific community, I am entitled to draw the conclusion (logically) that results from these studies need to be investigated further, since they were designed for a particular outcome from the get-go. Though I have not read every study from start to finish, what I have read shows me that they don't have the evidence to make the widely (media promoted) assumption that "Vaccines don't cause Autism" based on the thimerosal studies alone.

And another: the idea that HPV vaccine is safe or effective (long term) based on a handful of years worth of study, or that it is safe for 9yo's when few to none have been tested at all, is not logical or reasonable either.

These are the types of things that are being accepted as fact because they are printed in scientific journals, and read there by the medical community at large. If you actually read the studies (in total, not just the articles), you will be able to apply your own logic and reasoning to the facts reported, to make your own conclusion. Isn't this the minimum that science owes us?
post #119 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9sarchik View Post
Waiflywaif, Karry, WildKingdom, please put your links for us to read for your side of the argument and we will gladly read them.

This is all about informed consent for the parents out there. For parents to learn and take control of their own health care. So they can question their Dr. and not take anything for granted with their health and the health of their family. Is there a problem with this?
There have been many links posted saying the exact opposite of what you claim, yet you still have not provided the proof that doctors get bonuses and other financial incentives related to vaxes. Why is that?
post #120 of 124
my doctor is a family doctor not a pediatrician but vaxing has come up exactly twice. once with the doctor and once with the physicians assistant. i told them we were delaying indefinitely and they were fine with that.

my doctor and i talked about it a little bit and she said that she said that offering vaccines is a huge financial burden. she said that you cannot exactly buy vaccines one at a time and every unused vaccine is more money lost. she said that she tries not to buy more than they will use but even if they use them all they still lose money on them.

i am sure that doctors wouldn't push vaccines if they thought they were harmful. i am sure many doctors want to be able to offer vaccines because they believe they are beneficial. perhaps those doctors push harder or will not take on parents who do not vaccinate because they can only afford to offer vaccines if all (or as many as possible) of their patients are getting them.

maybe pharmaceutical companies should lower the price.
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