WWYD....warning, neglect/abuse mentionned

[MamaSoleil]

Not sure if this belongs in this forum. It's something that happened with a friend. I thought of Gentle Discipline, then of TAO, and settled for this forum.
Okay, here goes....
I have this really good friend, I was her maid of honor at her wedding. She married this guy, who, has some anger issues. His dad is, for lack of a better word, a jerk, and his son seems to have taken after him!
Anyway, my friend presently lives about 4000 miles away, and so we only see each other about once a year. Last year, I found out they spank. This made me very sad. I asserted that I don't believe in spanking, he laughed at me. My friend and I talked about it, and she felt bad about spanking, and told me she wanted to stop that approach. Fine.
This year, they were at our house, and between the two of them threatened to hit their daughter (21/2 yrs) about 5 times. They didn't follow thru though...: My dd was confused,and talked to me about it after they left, and she said she was relieved that they did not hit her in our house.
Okay, about two days later, my friend is over without her, um, worse half...I have all these books that just 'happen' to be lying about about parenting...GD kind of books. The subject comes up, as I knew it would. Okay, here goes the point of my story...
We're having a totally casual conversation, very laid back. I'm talking about why I don't believe in spanking, and how thankful I am that dh agrees as well...(though I never once doubted that about him ) She tells me that her dh has anger issues, and blah blah. Then, she very casually tells me that the other day, she walked in on him, he had their dd in the shower under ICE COLD WATER!!!!!!
I did not know how to react...she was upset about it. And told me she told him to NEVER do anything like that again. That they agreed that from then on, she should be in charge of discipline..that is NOT discipline, am I wrong???
This conversation took place over xmas, and I can't get it out of my mind. They are moving to my town in the summer. I'm relieved that they are moving, so I can monitor...but then, oh, I don't know. I'm just so sad for their dd. And should I have said more, like I just kind of sat there in shock...
What would you have done? Would you tell anyone? Am I overreacting????
Please, if you've read this far, tell me what you think.
TIA,

Mamasoleil/samson

[eilonwy]

If I were you, I'd encourage my friend and her dh to both get some (individual) therapy. I am not a huge fan or proponent of psychiatry, but this man obviously has some issues that need to be dealt with by a professional before he "accidentally" causes major irreperable damage to his little girl. I have anger issues myself, and have caught myself thinking things that are horrendous, but I would hope that if my husband ever caught me doing something that cruel and outright dangerous to our son that he would have me sedated and hospitalized so fast my head would spin. That man needs some major help, and he needs to get it soon.

Just my opinion, because you seem so upset! I guess I would be too. I hope things improve soon for your friend's little girl.

[merpk]

Actually agreeing about suggesting he (in particular) seek therapy. Anger issues is one thing. Actually acting out on them and doing something abusive (and the ice cold shower qualifies, IMO) is a whole 'nother thing.



Understanding & empathizing with your friend about the anger issues thing. My DH has them, too. And was abused himself as a child (his mother had a particular skillet she'd beat him with). So although we sometimes have different ideas about gentle discipline, he is desperate to get out of his anger-rut and also understands the urgency, and he has lived through and deeply appreciates his many years of therapy ...




If your friend's DH is resistent to therapy, that is a huge hurdle. Does she think he might be amenable to that suggestion?

[MamaSoleil]

I'm not sure. She said she's trying to convince him to take parenting classes, or at the very least, read a book. But he doesn't believe in that sort of thing according to her. I think she did mention anger related therapy, and mentionned that his mom left his dad for anger related reasons, and they couldn't agree on how to deal with discipline....
To tell the truth, I kind of was in a weird mode, I could see myself nodding, and I guess I said some stuff, but it all felt so surreal...I just kept/keep picturing their little dd in the cold shower.
I don't think I reacted very well. I should have said more. I may write her a letter, or a phonecall maybe, to follow up???

[jannan]

putting a child in ice cold water falls under "cruel and unusual punishment" about 3 years ago a girl in my class , then 7 yrs, told me that her parents did this to her and i called cps. nothing dramatic happened. the social worker came and the parents had to go to parenting classes. i would consider calling.

[DebraBaker]

It sounds like the friend knows something is wrong and has taken action....that *she* is in charge of the discipline.

If this man has anger issues he shouldn't touch his daughter. Period.

He needs the help to overcome his own issues or he will pass them on to his children!!!

I wouldn't call the authorities because she's already taking action but if the boor touches the girl again (or subjects her to a cold shower) I'd call!

I am not comfortible with the casual attitude, though, was she trying to be levelheaded and composed or did you need to convince her that this was a problem?

db

[mamatomikey]

SHE MUST LEAVE HIM

If she loves her child, she'll leave him. I am so sad for children of moms who convince themselves that they should stay in a marriage where their children are being abused. Yes, that is definitely abuse, and if she somehow can't recognize that that treatment is abuse, well still I am so sad for children who are treated like THAT and their moms don't protect them. We reap what we sew and that poor sweet child is going to have problems later on if her mother doesn't get her out of that dangerous household. Show her this thread and encourage her to leave. No need to show him the thread, he is clearly a loser who will never learn.

[Clarity]

How about that strategy to get him into therapy/classes (like maybe parents anonymous) that if anyone found out about the thing he's doing, CPS might investigate and remove her, at least temporarily. The fear of that (I'm sure he loves her) might get him to compromise. And maybe classes/therapy would help him see what he's doing is wrong. I agreee, encourage her to insist that she be totally in charge of discipline if he's not willing to try to improve. If he doesnt agree, that's something she really needs to think about - what that says about how far it's gotten. And SHE should go to classes to get some local positive parenting support that's not him.

[TurboClaudia]

Originally posted by jannan
putting a child in ice cold water falls under "cruel and unusual punishment" about 3 years ago a girl in my class , then 7 yrs, told me that her parents did this to her and i called cps. nothing dramatic happened. the social worker came and the parents had to go to parenting classes. i would consider calling.

If you are speaking as a teacher, then you are a mandated reporter. The OP is a friend, and runs the risk of ruining her relationship with her friend and removing herself as a supportive person in what may end up becoming a difficult situation.

As a later poster said, I would not call the police or child protective services or etc. The mom is taking action, and she needs the support of her friend to continue believing in her ability to do the right thing.

As for what I would have done, I imagine I would have empathized with the little girl's situation: how scared she must have been, how confused she must have been, what she is probably feeling about her dad (angry, guilty, confused, less than perfect, etc.) and communicated that to the mom. I would have probably asked some hard questions, like why did she want to become a mom and why did her partner want to be a dad?

This is all hypothetical, of course, because most people who have anger issues in their pasts are people I avoid associating with in general. I know it's different in this case because SHE is your friend, not her partner, and I always find that walking the line of being supportive and being truly helpful and a good friend a non-distinct and changeable thing.

I do agree that therapy is an excellent thing for them to consider, and I would strongly recommend couples-oriented or family-oriented therapy. Although it may end up that he is the one that needs to change his attitudes and actions, they have committed to being parents TOGETHER and this event was precipitated as a parenting issue. This is a personal recommendation and may be a result of my not knowing very much about them as people, however, so take it with that knowledge.

Please keep us updated with what you decide to do...

warmly,
claudia

[lilyka]

I wouldn't call CPS but I would encourage the friend to look into counseling and realy press the issue with her dh. It sounds like he knows he needs a better discipline stratagy. Maybe there are some love and logic classes they would be willing to go to.. everyone I know who has taken them loves them and has come out with some really good tools. A parenting class is less offensive to some peo-ple than a phsycatrist or being called an abuser. Instead focus on the positive., even if your friend just took a class she would have some things she could use to lead by example (neanderthal man see enlightened woman and says "hey that works, I will try it" ). Also for the time being she should make an effort to be with her dd so she can deal with discipline issues.

[traceface]

Mamasoleil
I do think you should have another conversation with her, as you mentioned, either in person or by writing her, and let her know how much hearing that story affected you, you can't forget it, want to make sure she knows just how over the top it is, etc. You said she mentioned it casually so maybe she *doesn't* realize how strange and scary her husband's behavior is.

I'm not sure about calling CPS now - maybe first try to impress on her, since she is your friend and may listen. She probably has more influence on her husband than a therapist or anger mgmt person would. If she becomes convinced that he is actually abusive maybe she can prevail upon him to get help, motivated within himself (rather than imposed on him by social services). Of course you can resort to CPS etc later.

I don't know, this ice-cold shower thing is really awful to think about. I don't believe he can stay out of disciplining the girl if his anger and lack of self-control are that out of hand, to do such a thing.

[AlmostCrunchyMama]

CALL CPS!
You know about the abuse.If you do nothing( and I personally dont think talking to the mom or dad will change anything) you are just as responsible for the horrible things that baby is going thru.
Why is there any question what you should do> DO THE RIGHT THING! PROTECT THAT BABY!

[Arduinna]

I think I remember last year when she visited and you guys had problems with the spanking thing.

ITA with you putting a 2 year old under ice cold shower is ABUSE. It's freaking sick and while I know I don't need to say this I would never let them watch my kids. scary.

Are they moving soon?? If not, I would report them to whatever agency is applicable where they are. Otherwise, I might wait only because it would be easier to make sure they get investigated if they live nearby.

((HUGS))

[MamaSoleil]

A~Yes, it's the same friend I spoke of last year.

As for what I would have done, I imagine I would have empathized with the little girl's situation: how scared she must have been, how confused she must have been, what she is probably feeling about her dad (angry, guilty, confused, less than perfect, etc.) and communicated that to the mom. I would have probably asked some hard questions, like why did she want to become a mom and why did her partner want to be a dad?

I really wish I would have taken that point...from the child's pov...never ever thought of that. As said, I was in shock.
I'm still not sure what to do. Though, I think I will call her tomorrow, and bring it up, and ask how things are going. My friend is very honest, and would not lie or hide anything...obviously, as she told me about this in the first place...

I am not comfortible with the casual attitude, though, was she trying to be levelheaded and composed or did you need to convince her that this was a problem

It was bizarre, she *knew* he had crossed a line. And she was adament that she stared him in the eye and say to NEVER do ANYTHING like that again.
Yet, saying really calmly..I think she was in shock.

I will keep you all posted.

Peace,

Mamasoleil/samson

[mama_kass]

I would not call CPS....yet. I don't think your friend should leave her dh....yet.

Your friend needs to tell her dh under no circumstances is ice cold water a form of disapline. He needs to understand where the line is and that to cross it means that he will have to leave the house to get professional care.

I do not spank. But if a parent is there is an "acceptable way to do it". A pat on the bottom or leg is reasonable (not by me personally, in fact just typing that makes my belly turn.) When a parent hits anywhere in the face or head, uses an object, or does something that the child hates (like running ice cold water over them, forced to eat foods they hate, ect.) that is abuse.

If this behavior continues and your df does nothing then you will have to call CPS.

I hope that she does not stand for this though. All you can do in the meantime is give her your support and let her know that you are there for her and her dd.