Appropriate consequence for taking Daddy's dessert?

[EnviroBecca]

We had two very similar incidents a week apart, in which our 4-year-old ate what he clearly understood to be his father's dessert, and EnviroDaddy and I disagree about how they should have been handled:

#1:
We were staying in a hotel that gave us 2 cookies when we checked in on Friday night. EnviroKid and I each ate half a cookie. The remaining cookie was set on the desk in the hotel room, and there was no discussion of who would get to eat it. Saturday afternoon, EnviroDaddy was lying down with a headache while EnviroKid and I got rinsed off and dressed after swimming. It was well past lunchtime, and EnviroKid and I were hungry. While I was still in the bathroom, Kid noticed the cookie and woke Daddy to tell him that we were saving this cookie for him (Daddy); I did not hear this. Daddy said okay and closed his eyes. Kid brought the cookie into the bathroom, gave me a piece, and ate a piece. I told him, "Thank you, but let's not eat any more cookie because we're going to go get lunch." Kid went back into the main room, ate the rest of the cookie, then immediately went to Daddy and said, "I'm very sorry, but I ate your cookie," in (according to Daddy) a very cheerful voice.

EnviroDaddy was furious. He felt it was VERY wrong for EnviroKid to promise him a cookie (which he then began to look forward to eating when he got up) and then eat ANY of it, let alone ALL. He was further upset by being informed of this while he was trying to rest. He voiced these feelings angrily, stayed at the hotel while we went to lunch and a park, and continued nursing his grudge through my brother's wedding rehearsal dinner. EnviroKid, who hadn't had a chance to nap and had drowsed off during the rehearsal only to awaken when I tried to lay him down, ordered a smoothie and a veggie dog, both of which he was very much looking forward to, and was quite patient given the slow service, the uncomfortably warm room, and his tired state--sure, he interrupted conversation many times to ask when he'd get his stuff, but it WAS a long wait. And then he didn't like either item! He complained quietly, negotiated some trades with both parents, and ate a reasonable amount of food. When it was time to order dessert, I very much wanted a piece of carrot cake all to myself, but EnviroKid wanted carrot cake too, and I did not want to order him a whole piece. EnviroDaddy flipped out at the fact that I was even considering letting Kid have any dessert at all; he rehashed the whole cookie incident in a quiet but angry tone, then told Kid he was too angry to be near him anymore and stormed out of the restaurant. I ordered one piece of carrot cake, and both my dad and I shared with Kid. Afterward, I asked EnviroDaddy what would get him over the cookie incident, and he said he'd been very disappointed that we hadn't returned from lunch with another cookie for him--but he couldn't tell us that was what he wanted because then it wouldn't be as good. I pointed out to him that this is the exact same "There's one magic solution to my problem; I won't tell you what it is, but I'll be disappointed when it doesn't happen." thing that so infuriates him when I or EnviroKid do it.

My opinion: Kid saw the cookie, recalled that Daddy hadn't had any of the first cookie, and knew it would be fair to offer it to him; that's a positive act that should be acknowledged. Daddy neither ate the cookie then nor put it away. The hungry Kid was unable to resist, BUT he knew he'd done wrong and immediately apologized, another positive act. Daddy's reaction was too harsh; yes, he was in pain and not completely awake, but he should have been prepared to apologize for it when we returned, rather than expecting US to placate HIM. Bringing him a new cookie would've been a nice gesture if I'd thought of it, but OTOH it might give Kid the message that he can take Daddy's stuff because we'll just buy another one.... It was wrong for Kid to eat Daddy's cookie, but it did not justify even one angry freak-out, let alone another one several hours later that disrupted a special event. (I was very hurt that he took for granted he could storm off leaving me in charge of Kid, seeing as I'd been in charge most of the day and we'd previously agreed that, to enable me to get to know my brother's friends and in-laws, HE would be the Parent On Duty during the dinner!!) In a 4-year-old's mind, the events of the evening were far removed from those of the early afternoon, AND he had behaved very well at the dinner under difficult circumstances and had eaten some nutritious food, so I thought that allowing him dessert was reasonable.

#2:
We were at a friend's party. On the way there, EnviroKid tripped and got several bad scrapes and was upset. EnviroKid first said he did not want any food, then ate several bites of my burrito, then asked EnviroDaddy to make him a burrito. (These were smallish burritos made with 6" tortillas.) He ate 2/3 of his burrito. Meanwhile EnviroDaddy and I had gotten chocolate cupcakes, which were extremely rich. EnviroKid asked for and got 3 bites of mine. Then he demanded that I finish his burrito, get him his own cupcake, and get him some more water. I told him if he was hungry he could eat the burrito; he had not eaten enough real food to eat any more dessert; there was plenty of time to pause and finish eating later; I'd be happy to get more water if he'd ask nicely. He asked nicely, and I went to the kitchen for water. Before I got back (elapsed time one minute or less) I heard Kid wailing, and I returned to the room to find Daddy standing over him saying very angrily, "We're going straight home! Put on your shoes!" It seems Daddy set his unfinished cupcake on his plate, planning to finish it later, and when he looked away Kid took a bite.

After hearing Daddy's report, I got down on the floor to listen to Kid and hug him while he cried. He agreed that he'd taken a bite, that the cupcake was Daddy's and Daddy had said he couldn't have it, and that he'd heard me say he could not have any more dessert. He was very sad. I explained that telling Daddy he was sorry was the right thing to do. He wanted me to "help" him; after I pressed for specifics, he asked me to say every other syllable in, "I am sorry." I would not do that; the apology needed to come from him. After about 10 minutes (during which EnviroDaddy stood several feet away staring over our heads like he was waiting for a bus), EnviroKid apologized, though he did not sound very sincere; he acted as if he was afraid to speak to his father at all. Another child came over and asked him to play a game, and he did that. Later, our whole family played a game together and enjoyed it. We left the party an hour later in good moods.

Daddy believes that we must respond to "this sort of thing" with very firm and negative consequences so Kid will learn that he can't do it. He was very annoyed that I intervened in his discipline attempt and "made" him look like the bad guy. He says HE thought Kid had eaten enough to have dessert, but because I had said no he couldn't allow it.

My opinion: Taking a bite of Daddy's cupcake was wrong, but it was not such a big deal that it needed to change the whole course of the evening. Kid was showing regret for his actions, although his formal apology left much to be desired. Taking him home would not have accomplished much except making his parents miss the party. (Daddy says his intention was to take Kid home and let me stay, but he didn't tell me that in the moment.) However, I should not have intervened, because there IS a problem of the two of them not knowing how to get along together, and they're never going to work it out if I keep "rescuing" Kid from Daddy.

What do you think? How much of what kind of consequence is appropriate? What should EnviroDaddy do to calm down and make a fresh start after an incident like this? What can I do to keep myself out of conflicts that are between the two of them?

[lurable]

nak
I think you handled both situations well. In the first incident I would have agreed with EDad- no dessert as EKid had already had his. In the second situation I would have done as you did. I think as far as you stepping in, sometimes it is useful to have a mediator- we do it all of the time in our house. I'll post more later- one hand typing is hard

[2xy]

It seems to me that the child might be reacting typically to overly coercive parenting. I see his behavior as subconscious pushing-of-buttons. The first incident was either a lack of self-control or outright deception; only you can be the judge, since I obviously don't know your kid. The second incident was sneaky. Maybe EnviroKid feels that he has no control over food issues.

Honestly, I can't imagine a grown man freaking out so much about losing a cookie or about being spoken to while taking a nap. Being interrupted and inconvenienced is part of parenthood. Sure, it was wrong for the boy to eat his dad's dessert. He's four.

More freedom might lead to less of a need for "consequences," IMO.

[krystyn33]

This may sound judgmental, but I question your DH's expectations and am having a hard time understanding such strong reactions from him over what seems trivial--a cookie? a cupcake? Don't put them where the kid can take them or get another one. He is the grown up and needs to act like it, IMO. Not many 4 year olds are going to have the impulse control to refrain from eating a sweet set out right in front of them, even when he knows it isn't his. If I leave a piece of fish on the counter and walk away and come back to find my cat eating it, what good is it to be angry at the cat? It was my fault. Yes, a four year old is not the same, but that temptation might be too much even for an older child.

Rather than brainstorming so much about how to manage this behavior issue, I'd invest some thought in figuring out why this was such a big deal to your husband. Seems like an anger or control issue on his part--something he needs to work out. Comforting your child when he's upset by his father's anger is not "reinforcement"--it is kindness, IMO. The behavior from his dad seemed very much like threatening rejection (or angry coldness) as punishment or to teach a lesson and I imagine this would be very confusing, scary and painful for a young child. To be made to feel like Daddy doesn't love you anymore because you ate his cookie just seems bizarre and harsh to me.

[rabbitmum]

Originally Posted by 2xy

Honestly, I can't imagine a grown man freaking out so much about losing a cookie or about being spoken to while taking a nap. Being interrupted and inconvenienced is part of parenthood. Sure, it was wrong for the boy to eat his dad's dessert. He's four.

Originally Posted by krystyn33

Don't put them where the kid can take them or get another one. He is the grown up and needs to act like it, IMO. Not many 4 year olds are going to have the impulse control to refrain from eating a sweet set out right in front of them, even when he knows it isn't his.

I completely agree with you both!

OP, I must admit I got a bit giggly from your account. Are you married to the cookie monster? Your husband sounds like he is far too attached to his cookies!

The "consequence" should be that your husband learns to put his cookies somewhere safer, and that he learns to be a little more relaxed about the "real food/dessert ratio", especially when there's a "special" occasion! And he should apologise to his child for being angry and seeming so hostile, it must have been scary for your four-year-old.

[The Harpy]

Hmm... IMHO...

The cookie was wrong and he should not have been given any dessert/ carrot cake because he had already taken daddy's dessert and eaten it. Natural consequence is if you take someone else's dessert, you should give them yours. DS should have given Dad his carrot cake to make up for the cookie being eaten IMO. 4 yrs old is a good age to learn that, my son understood that w/ out a problem and he had done that ONCE w/ his sisters treat and it was easy to learn.

W/ the cupcake incident, DS was aware that he has already done this once that day (same day right?) and here it did it again. He hasn't learned that there are serious consequences for taking w/ out asking so he continues to do it. kwim?

I can understand Dad's upset as well because it sounds like he is feeling like you validate DS' feelings more than his and that you jump to DS' defence and disregard Dad's opinion. It is hard when one parent feels like their opinion in the childraising isn't valid or will be over ruled. If you continue to jump to the defence of Kid when Dad has an issue w/ him you are showing DS that your the go to person because Dad can just get overruled. Be careful w/ this mama... it is a slippery slope.

I would say that if Dad and Kid spent some one on one time w/ out mom there, they might be able to work some of the bugs out. Sometimes Kid just needs to get the groove on Dad's parenting style w/ out mom there running interference..... ya know?

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by krystyn33

This may sound judgmental, but I question your DH's expectations and am having a hard time understanding such strong reactions from him over what seems trivial--a cookie? a cupcake? Don't put them where the kid can take them or get another one. He is the grown up and needs to act like it, IMO. Not many 4 year olds are going to have the impulse control to refrain from eating a sweet set out right in front of them, even when he knows it isn't his. If I leave a piece of fish on the counter and walk away and come back to find my cat eating it, what good is it to be angry at the cat? It was my fault. Yes, a four year old is not the same, but that temptation might be too much even for an older child.

ITA. i think it's weird for your DH to be so upset over a cookie at all-- especially over the fact that DS took it. 4 year olds are not known for impulse control. i mean, heck, if DH put a really yummy looking cupcake down and walked away for a second, i would probably take a bite

to me, this isn't something that really needs to be consequenced, as much as just talked through, which it sounds like you did.

[elizawill]

eh. he's 4. it's not a big deal to me. i'm sorry your dh is all out of joints over it, but i don't know that creating a mountain out of a mole hill is going to accomplish anything. imho, instead of your husband being so angry he needed to leave the restaurant, it would have been better to use the situation as an opportunity for father/son to talk, reflect, reconnect, and forgive. i think if that had been done the first time around, then the second incident may not have occurred, ykwim?

[EnviroBecca]

Yes, I think there are issues on EnviroDaddy's part. He and I stayed up late the night of Incident #1 discussing, basically, WTF made it such a huge deal? It boils down to self-centeredness about his "right" to be treated well particularly when he feels bad. He was so wrapped up in it that he had given no thought to the feelings of EnviroKid (struggling to stay awake and polite at adult dinner party; disappointed by food choices) or me (taken for granted as Parent On Duty all day long; embarrassed by partner's behavior at special event) until I pointed them out.

Eventually he said he is worried that EnviroKid will turn out like him--too focused on his own comfort to notice the feelings of others--and that's why he gets so freaked out when EnviroKid does something self-centered like this. Okay, but at the same time as he's thinking about punishing EnviroKid's undesirable behavior, he's GOT to think about the example he's setting with his own behavior!!

We're both concerned about EnviroKid's flagrant disobedience--both parents told him not to, but he did, a VERY short time later--but we have different opinions on what should be done about it:
DADDY: We cannot tolerate this. When EnviroKid does something unpleasant, we should make things unpleasant for him.
ME: We must acknowledge both positive and negative actions, and guide him to make amends for the negative ones. We are responsible for our own emotional states and must do our best to respond to an apology with more positive feelings. We need to take into account our child's developmental stage and current physical and emotional state.

Lurable wrote:

In the first incident I would have agreed with EDad- no dessert as EKid had already had his.

He had 1/4 of a cookie 7 hours earlier. It seemed far-fetched to me to argue that that ruled out dessert after dinner. I guess it would seem like an appropriate consequence if we'd decided it right after he ate the cookie, but waiting until the question of dessert had been raised was pretty harsh.

I agree that EnviroDaddy's expectations of 4-year-old willpower are too high! We've got such a good, mature kid that it's easy to expect too much from him. We haven't had the opportunity for a cool-headed discussion of Incident #2 yet, but I suspect that EnviroDaddy looked away from the cupcake to test EnviroKid, and I think that's really inappropriate! We should be setting him up for success.

[EnviroBecca]

Harpy: Not the same day. One week later.

I'm going away (to Girl Scout camp ) next weekend, so the two of them will be on their own. I hope it will be a good bonding time for them. They do seem to get along better with each other when I'm totally unavailable than when either of them feels I can be called to the rescue. It's not just Kid wanting shelter from Daddy's anger but Daddy wanting me to manage Kid since he doesn't feel he's as good at it as I am.... I tell him he never will be if he doesn't practice!!

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

He had 1/4 of a cookie 7 hours earlier. It seemed far-fetched to me to argue that that ruled out dessert after dinner. I guess it would seem like an appropriate consequence if we'd decided it right after he ate the cookie, but waiting until the question of dessert had been raised was pretty harsh.

i totally agree. that only would have been reasonable if your dh had clearly told your son 7 hours earlier that his consequence was no sweets for the remainder of the day. if your dh wants to be stricter with your son than you, i don't see that as a huge deal honestly. my dh and i parent differently on the GD spectrum as well. however, consequences can't be thrown around long after the offense has taken place. that's not fair. it also isn't fair to rehash the mistakes your little boy made. consequences should make sense, and they should be discussed and understood by parent/child. not to mention there needs to be further resolution through communication and forgiveness, yk? hugs mama. i hope you all find your rhythm.

[HappiLeigh]

Yeah, I think there are a few different issues going on. I'm on board with the PPs opinion that Dad overreacted regarding the cookie--pouting about a cookie is not cool, no matter how old the person is! Was EDad irritated with child, though, or with you? It's not clear how the immediate after-cookie-eating episode went, except that your DH was angry and subsequently felt like *you* should have "fixed" it by purchasing another cookie. Which makes it unclear whether he was mad at the kid or you. It sound like maybe there is an issue with you guys not being on the same page about how to handle discipline situations with DS, which is something you all need to work out apart from these particular situations, just in general. (We have that going on at my house some, too, which is how I recognize it!)

Regarding the specific episodes, I respectfully disagree with the PPs who think cookies and cupcakes are not the stuff that big parenting issues are made of--those are small treats that can represent larger treats. We don't let our kids take other people's cookies because later we don't want them stealing cars, right? (Not that your kid is ever going to steal cars! I'm just saying that actually dessert is important at four because it is a big deal to a four-year-old.) Which makes it a perfectly reasonable scenario in which to play out your family's reaction to minor infractions. It sounds like you guys just need to be on the same page about what that reaction is going to be, and have each other's back when it comes to carrying out your plan, so your DS knows that it's clear that in your family it is not okay with either parent if he takes someone else's stuff, whether that's a cookie or whatever.

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by HappiLeigh

I respectfully disagree with the PPs who think cookies and cupcakes are not the stuff that big parenting issues are made of--those are small treats that can represent larger treats. We don't let our kids take other people's cookies because later we don't want them stealing cars, right? (Not that your kid is ever going to steal cars! I'm just saying that actually dessert is important at four because it is a big deal to a four-year-old.)

i just don't view it this way i suppose. if my child ate a cookie at the age of 4 after clearly being told it was not okay, i think you should address it, correct them, and move on. i certainly wouldn't be worried about the behavior growing into carjacking. i know your comment was a bit tongue and cheek, but some behaviors at age 4 are completely age appropriate in their development. so for me, it really isn't a big deal.

[krystyn33]

I've been known to polish off DH's ice cream left in the freezer--taking food that isn't rightfully mine. This hasn't led to stealing from friends, strangers, or even the grocery store, much less the notion that stealing larger, non-perishables like automobiles is ok.

My husband is never happy when this happens, but he is one of the precious few people in this world who love me in spite of my imperfections. Trust and intimacy and forgiveness are marvelous things--what better place to model them than within your immediate family.

[tanyam926]

This is what we probably would have done:

Incident #1, my dh would have told ds that he was looking forward to eating his cookie and was now sad that ds ate daddy's cookie. Ds would have felt bad and at lunch I would have suggested we save some cake to take home for daddy or get him another cookie, or asked what ds thought we could do to make it up to daddy.

I also agree that it's just too tempting to leave it out there. Kids, even at 4 have little impulse control, heck, if I was having a bad day and was craving a cookie I would have a hard time not eating the last one that was left for my dh. I would be sorry and then try and make it up to him.

Incident #2, Never turn your back on a kid and a cupcake, that's one thing I have learned over the years. Seriously though, we would have talked about how taking something that doesn't belong to us makes the other person feel, how it could have been handled better and then negotiated a solution.

I really believe in not setting kids up to fail though, and for my kids both situations would have been setting them up. I don't leave a plate of cookies cooling on the counter w/in reach if I really don't want my kids to get a cookie.

I agree w/ pps though that your dh's reaction was overboard. However, he was probably more upset about the principle behind it than the actual dessert. Maybe he thinks (like most parent's do) that your ds behaviour means that you are not teaching him the lessons he needs to learn?

I find that when my dh doesn't understand normal age appropriate behavior he is much more frustrated w/the kids. When he knows what is normal he can then move past the frustration to talking w/them and teaching them.

Sorry for the novel!

[mamazee]

I think that a hungry 4-year-old is going to eat a cookie if it's out. He tried to get his dad to eat it if he wanted it. If the dad wanted it, he should have eaten it or moved it to where the 4-year-old couldn't get it. I think the appropriate response would have been to buy another cookie for dad if he wanted one. His expectations aren't fair. Young kids have a hard time controlling themselves around cookies. My 7-year-old can now, but I don't remember when that started. I do not believe she would have been able to at 4.

[~gilli~]

Dude...it's only a cookie. Chill.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

We're both concerned about EnviroKid's flagrant disobedience--
.

I think your expectations are too high. A cookie or cupcake are VERY tempting, even for adults! Is his "disobedience" a real problem, or limited to relying on a 4 year old's impulse control to resist highly tempting foods that are out in the open? IMO, the situations (leaving forbidden treats out) set him up for failure.

My response would be first to stifle a laugh (he stole daddy's cookie! ), then to explain that it is wrong, and then to not leave treats out that he is not allowed to have (or eat them in front of him.....can the adults have the self control to wait until the child is allowed to have a cupcake too, or after the child is asleep?)

[EnviroBecca]

HappiLeigh wrote:

Was EDad irritated with child, though, or with you? It's not clear how the immediate after-cookie-eating episode went, except that your DH was angry and subsequently felt like *you* should have "fixed" it by purchasing another cookie.

I don't think he blamed me for not preventing EKid from eating the cookie--I was busy rinsing the swimsuits and such, and EKid more often than not responds to instructions like "no more of that" by putting the thing aside appropriately. However, he refused any responsibility himself for preventing his cookie from getting eaten. I can understand expecting EKid not to EAT it (because he'd just SAID he was saving it for Daddy) but, since we were in an unfamilar space with our stuff all cluttered around, if I were EDad I'd have taken the cookie and put it in a specific place so I could be sure of finding it when I wanted it!

What EDad really wanted was for *EKid* to think of getting him another cookie. While that is not out of the question, it is a pretty high level of empathy and problem-solving to expect from a 4-year-old. If he HAD suggested it, I would've done it.

Second best for EDad would've been if I had thought of replacing the cookie and either directly suggested it to EKid or coached him through "How can you make it up to Daddy?" brainstorming. I didn't do this because I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS SUCH A BIG FREAKING DEAL, I don't want to give the impression that sweets buy happiness, and I was busy trying to get a good lunch and enjoy the day after that unpleasantness--we were in an unfamiliar city and had to wander a bit to find lunch, and we bumped into my aunt and uncle, so I really wanted to enjoy lunch with them rather than spend my time brainstorming how to "fix" EnviroDaddy, who can be difficult to coax out of a bad mood.

Where there is an ongoing conflict between EDad and me is not so much over discipline (although we've been disagreeing more about that just recently) but over his behavior at social gatherings: He tends to have something wrong (tired, bad mood, some type of pain, or genuine contagious illness) and therefore "drop out" of the event either by slouching in a corner with his eyes shut or by staying home/in his room. It's not just when we see my family but also his family or our friends; this happens more often than not. If *I* have something wrong but it's not contagious, I do my very best to participate in the event anyway and be pleasant, and that's what I'd like him to do because
1. It's more polite.
2. Now that we have a kid, his dropping out means extra responsibility and distraction for me, so I don't get to enjoy socializing as much.
3. He'd like me to cater to his delicate state, but I'm busy hanging out with other people and doing stuff and being the Parent On Duty, and I don't want to worry about him constantly or cut short the socializing to rush to his bedside!
I explained my feelings about this at great length the night after Incident #1. EDad was feeling better the next day and made it up to me by taking EKid swimming while I hung around the breakfast table with my relatives, taking charge of EKid at the "bachelor's lunch" so I could meet my brother's friends, and being very "on" and friendly at the wedding reception.

I respectfully disagree with the PPs who think cookies and cupcakes are not the stuff that big parenting issues are made of--those are small treats that can represent larger treats. We don't let our kids take other people's cookies because later we don't want them stealing cars, right?

A lot of responses said it's not the same thing, but I see what you mean: I don't want my kid to take someone's cookie minutes after a specific agreement on the subject because I don't want him to turn into a teenager who says, "Dad, you're using the car tonight, right?" and minutes later drives away in it.

Sunnmama wrote:

Is his "disobedience" a real problem, or limited to relying on a 4 year old's impulse control to resist highly tempting foods that are out in the open?

It's a real problem and not limited to this type of situation. I mean, Tanya is right that EDad has age-inappropriate expectations and is jumping to the conclusion that any misbehavior means EKid hasn't learned what's right, but there IS a problem with obedience recently. Let me cite another example that I think is quite similar in MO but that did not involve EDad:

EKid and I were at the playground at dusk. We agreed that after one more round of hide & seek, we'd go down the slide once together and once each, and then we'd go home. As I was about to cover my eyes...
KID: I want to take off my shoes.
ME: No, we don't run around the playground without shoes. Keep them on.
KID: Okay. Count!
(I count, then seek and find him.)
ME: Hey, you're not wearing your shoes! I told you to keep them on.
KID: Gosh! How did that happen? I didn't even notice!
ME: I think you did. You wanted to take off your shoes, and you did it even though I told you not to do it.
KID: I didn't hurt my feet!
ME: I am glad you didn't hurt your feet. Put on your shoes now. We are going home.
KID: But! What about the slide?
ME: I told you to keep your shoes on. You chose to take your shoes off. We can't stay at the playground because you broke the rule I told you.
He started crying. I hugged him and said things like, "You're disappointed that you can't go down the slide." and "You wanted to take off your shoes so badly that you pretended it was an accident." Finally we left the playground without going on the slide, although we did stop to retrieve his important pine cone.

Things like that happen just about every day: He says he's going to do something, a parent tells him to do otherwise, he does it anyway, and then he does a sort of cute-mischievous act in which he might apologize (as he did for the cookie) but often pretends it happened by magic or someone else's fault or something. This is annoying, and I don't want to encourage it in any way, but I regard it as developmentally normal and something we have to take in stride and work through. EnviroDaddy is more concerned that it indicates a budding problem and wants to crack down hard on it.

Mamazee wrote:

I think that a hungry 4-year-old is going to eat a cookie if it's out. He tried to get his dad to eat it if he wanted it.

You know, I think that's an important point: Although the words were quite clear (he said the cookie was for Daddy, and Daddy agreed), he may well have gotten the impression from Daddy's not taking control of the cookie that Daddy did not much care about it. That would've made the intensity of Daddy's reaction a big shock. The cheery-sounding apology that so annoyed EDad may have been the cheer of having just enjoyed a cookie coupled with the feeling that Daddy was going to be okay with that--not a smirking attitude toward having gotten away with stealing the cookie. Now that I think about it, EKid's reaction to EDad's anger both times was a wail of shock, as if he'd been slapped. So yeah, Daddy needs to work on SHOWING the boundaries, not just speaking them.

[krystyn33]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

Things like that happen just about every day: He says he's going to do something, a parent tells him to do otherwise, he does it anyway, and then he does a sort of cute-mischievous act in which he might apologize (as he did for the cookie) but often pretends it happened by magic or someone else's fault or something. This is annoying, and I don't want to encourage it in any way, but I regard it as developmentally normal and something we have to take in stride and work through.

I agree with you here & can't think of any children I've seen who don't engage in some amount of testing in this way. A 4 year old is not operating with the higher reasoning capability that most 10 year olds have--even one who is highly intelligent and has strong verbal skills that make it seem that way.

I've noticed that some of your language in these posts suggests that obedience from your DS is very important to you. If your goal is control over his behavior--having him obey the adults in his life as authority figures, then your overall approach would be very different than one valuing the learning process (often messy, non-linear & mistake-ridden) to behave in appropriate or acceptable ways out of inner motivation & understanding.