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WWYD...Neighbor told DS she wants to have SEX with Him!! - Page 6

post #101 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
I think a lot of conclusions are being jumped to in *why* those who are concerned are concerned. So much of what you posted, SB, is just so way off in my own feelings on the subject I can't help but wonder where you are getting it.

No one has said children are not or should not be sexual. Again it is the level that is being discussed here and the multiple warning signs that even go beyond the sexual. Someone showing concern for a little girls sexual actions is not the same as viewing her as "ruined". How disgusting that would be! And the "well she was asking to be raped by wearing the mini skirt"? Seriously, where is this coming from?
I'm sorry. I'm getting it from the "multiple warning signs" that everyone is talking about and that I don't see. At least two of the...what? four?..."warning signs" you're all talking about are things I've seen from dd more than once.

I'm also getting it from the language people are using. Several people have said that she propositioned the OP's ds. Do you not see how loaded that is?? We don't even know what she meant when she said "sex", but we're assuming she meant the actual act, and then calling it a "proposition". Holy crap. This is all adult filters. The talk about her strutting and being seductive "like a stripper" is also part of it. These things are subjective. The only person in this thread who has ever set eyes on this child is the OP, yet people are going on about her over-sexualized behaviour.

Quote:
Again, in my home we are open about sex and the human body. Call me crazy but kids running around nude or pulling up their shirts/pulling down their pants is just not something to freak over. Currently my 2 youngest have taken to pulling apart their labias and making pee noises for a laugh at each other. Of course they haven't learned that company doesn't really want to see them running around doing that but they're kids! Speaking for myself to say I am "tut tut"ing the human body or am being too prudish or whatever is just downright hilarious. At least DH and I did have a good laugh over it.

No one is attacking this little girl or making her out to be the bad guy. We are concerned. And how is that a bad thing- being concerned for a child? I have freely admitted that abuse might not be involved at all (meaning sexual in nature as obviously her being charged with her 2 yo bro is neglect/abuse). I have said that I would not be surprised if this was all just learned from the TV and have discussed the greater issue of over-sexualization in our society. Really, I see our children as victims in this not as the "enemy". How bizare to blame a child...

I think there is too much of a generalization here. People are assuming that sense we are showing concern we are anti-sex in general. It's just not that black and white.
Maybe if people weren't talking about this "strutting, seductive, stripper-like" child who "propositioned" another little boy, I wouldn't get that vibe. If people want to use that kind of language about a 5 year old child, they can own what they're saying. This stuff is derogatory of her sexuality. It just is. Whether she's a victim of abuse, or is just exposed to too much of the over-sexualized crap we call a culture, she's still being described in really negative ways. Try some of these words on your daughters, and see how they sound. Think about how you'd like someone calling your dd "seductive" or say she's acting "like a stripper" when they're playing with their labia. If someone talks about what might happen if your dd does that in front of a sexually active 10 year old, how would that go over?

There's a really negative undercurrent in this thread, and it's not just aimed at our over-sexualized society. It's aimed at this little girl...the seductive, strutting, "miniature super model". There have always been people who have a more teasing and/or flirty kind of personality than others, and that can manifest in a very wide variety of ways.

Honestly, I'm feeling icky about letting dd out to play with the neighbour kids now. She's really into being "pretty" right now, and she's a stunning little girl. She likes to...preen, I guess is the right word. She's also quite comfortable with nudity, but at an age where she's playing with the taboo a little. She has a kind of flirty vibe when she's playing beauty queen. Apparently, that's enough to make people think we have a pervert loose in her life, or let her watch porn or something.
post #102 of 171
A big "yeah, that" to Storm Bride. I have a pretty daughter with striking features who likes to sing and dance and dress in pretty clothes. Are my neighbors getting weird vibes from her? Does her being pretty make things different?
post #103 of 171
I too have beautiful daughters one of which is 5 and likes to be pretty as in wear nice things and requests her hair be done a certain way, etc. I may not agree with her going out in a tube top and mini skirt but I also don't have her in a paper sack hiding in the house. She likes to marry her "boyfriend" in the front yard. She likes to hold his hand. She likes to play super model. She likes to pose like a model for pictures- bat her eyes, pucker her lips, etc. You get the point. This behavior, and the behavior you listed your daughter does SB, is not the only issue and it is not THE issue with the little girl in the OP. Again, the point is being missed and people are on the defense. We're not meaning this in general terms. We're not saying a child who generally is sexual or pretty or likes to be noticed (etc) is abused or in the wrong (or any of those colorful words we're supposedly using to describe her "between the lines"). The OP has stated the red flags time and time again and the vibe felt.

As for the wording being used I have no issue with it as I feel it is being used to illustrate she is doing it in a more "mature" or "adult" manner not normal to a 5 year old. If my daughter was acting in that matter I would share that concern with a friend or family using those precise words. There seems to be too much knowledge NOT of the general nature with the little girl in the OP which is where the concern for abuse comes from. And again what she has done can be viewed as normal but to the degree and all the things together just add up.

I will continue to err on the side of caution for the sake of the child. And just to restate that does not mean viewing the child as "ruined" a "skank" or a "prostitute"
post #104 of 171
I know the "red flags" have been posted. I simply don't see them as red flags. And, as described, two of them - at least - apply to my dd. So, yeah - I'm probably a little defensive. I hope nobody in the complex is talking about my "little stripper", yk? Yuck. It's a good way to protect kids from being oversexualized, though...just do it ourselves, in the name of protecting them.

And, I still find the use of the term "propositioning" with respect to the OP, extremely distasteful.
post #105 of 171
I thought so too. It would be like if a little girl asked a little boy to marry him and people thought that she really was expecting to get married and oh no what will we do and where did she get this idea of marriage anyway?
post #106 of 171
If a child went up to another and playfully said "let's have sex" that's one thing but the way the OP describes it it seemed more of a proposition again the word is used to suggest a more "mature" attitude. Pair that with there being older children sexually active in the neighborhood that the smaller ones know about (or at least proclaiming to be and making it look "cool") and it makes one raise an eyebrow.

Quote:
And, as described, two of them - at least - apply to my dd.
Some apply to my DD as stated and yet I am taking this objectively and looking at the bigger picture not just where there are similarities. If I wanted to I'm sure I could even find offense in the little bro running outside alone. This has happened to us and my 5 yo DD has run out and got her little sis and drug her back in. Does that mean I am being accused of abuse too? That's what I call a leap.

The posters who have shown concern have said time and time again that some of these things alone are no cause for alarm. But we're not looking at them alone. Why would I be only looking at the mother's left eye in a family portrait? The picture doesn't make much sense as a whole when we only choose to look at a few pieces.

Of course we are only able to see what the OP is painting for us which is- for like the 100th time- why I am not saying it is 100% no doubt abuse and I am not calling for the parent's heads or CPS/authorities to be involved. Just saying all of that together sounds a bit fishy.
post #107 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
I think a lot of conclusions are being jumped to in *why* those who are concerned are concerned. So much of what you posted, SB, is just so way off in my own feelings on the subject I can't help but wonder where you are getting it.

No one has said children are not or should not be sexual. Again it is the level that is being discussed here and the multiple warning signs that even go beyond the sexual. Someone showing concern for a little girls sexual actions is not the same as viewing her as "ruined". How disgusting that would be! And the "well she was asking to be raped by wearing the mini skirt"? Seriously, where is this coming from?

Again, in my home we are open about sex and the human body. Call me crazy but kids running around nude or pulling up their shirts/pulling down their pants is just not something to freak over. Currently my 2 youngest have taken to pulling apart their labias and making pee noises for a laugh at each other. Of course they haven't learned that company doesn't really want to see them running around doing that but they're kids! Speaking for myself to say I am "tut tut"ing the human body or am being too prudish or whatever is just downright hilarious. At least DH and I did have a good laugh over it.

No one is attacking this little girl or making her out to be the bad guy. We are concerned. And how is that a bad thing- being concerned for a child? I have freely admitted that abuse might not be involved at all (meaning sexual in nature as obviously her being charged with her 2 yo bro is neglect/abuse). I have said that I would not be surprised if this was all just learned from the TV and have discussed the greater issue of over-sexualization in our society. Really, I see our children as victims in this not as the "enemy". How bizare to blame a child...

I think there is too much of a generalization here. People are assuming that sense we are showing concern we are anti-sex in general. It's just not that black and white.
Yes, yes, yes.

The OP asked what would we do. I think those who are concerned are pointing out the warning signs and saying, hey, some caution is in order here. Which the op did- she talked with her son, has open, honest communication with her son. If it were me, I would not let my child play with the little girl without adult supervision, like she can come over to our house, if for no other reason than there doesn't seem to be any adult supervision around her home.

Maybe the little girl's not being abused, but I would do everything I could to protect my child, if it means erring on the side of caution, so be it. Personally, I would rather be labeled the crazy, overprotective mother than expose my child to abuse. Once it's done, you can't take it back, you can't erase it for your child, so for me it's just not worth the risk.

Also, there's been a lot of references to I've seen my kid playing with these other kids and here's what they were doing, it was innocent... I would say again, do you know for certain that none of those other kids isn't being abused? And that kid instigated the behavior? There may not be a way to know for sure, but that is why it's important to keep eyes and ears open for the warning signs so we can at least protect our own children.

I'm not mom to a five year old, but I do recall quite clearly what it was like to be that age.
post #108 of 171
What it was like to be that age in the 70s or 80s is different than now, because there are a lot more overtly sexual references on prime time TV. If kids are watching prime time TV, they have a lot of phrases, and dancing and actions to copy, etc., that we didn't have to that extent. I think it started in the late 90s with Friends and Will and Grace, and it's gotten more so as time has gone on.
post #109 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
What it was like to be that age in the 70s or 80s is different than now, because there are a lot more overtly sexual references on prime time TV. If kids are watching prime time TV, they have a lot of phrases, and dancing and actions to copy, etc., that we didn't have to that extent. I think it started in the late 90s with Friends and Will and Grace, and it's gotten more so as time has gone on.
I agree with this which is why we have also discussed the over-sexualization of our children in society as a whole on this thread.

FWIW I was 5 in 90/91 and looking at pictures of me then and going off of my memory we did not dress or act like kids do now. Sure we wanted to look more adult and we talked about sex but I was still wearing jumpers and big gaudy bows in my hair at 8 even. Now we have padded bikini tops in size 5/6. I'm pretty sure I remember still having that little attached ruffle skirt on my bathing suits well after that.
post #110 of 171
I agree with storm bride in the way this girl is being portrayed. If someone described my not-quite four year old as behaving "like a stripper" or as "propositioning" someone for sex, or the other things portrayed, I would be so pissed off, everyone in the darn neighborhood would know it.

... and what exactly does her being "pretty" have to do with it? I am hearing statements like, "oh she'd better be careful, she is so pretty" and whatnot -- because, those ugly kids are safe from molestation and if the "pretty" girl gets hurt, she shouldn't have been wearin' that tube top?

This thread is... icky.

OP, just tell your son to not engage with the girl if he feels so uncomfortable -- and if you feel the need to address her mom, come from the perspective of protecting her daughter --

I seriously would not want to be the person who came to a mama like *me* telling me my daughter was acting "like a stripper". However, if someone came to me expressing that my little girl may be in danger, I might listen.
post #111 of 171

Wwyd?

Call CPS. Today.
post #112 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
If a child went up to another and playfully said "let's have sex" that's one thing but the way the OP describes it it seemed more of a proposition again the word is used to suggest a more "mature" attitude. Pair that with there being older children sexually active in the neighborhood that the smaller ones know about (or at least proclaiming to be and making it look "cool") and it makes one raise an eyebrow.



Some apply to my DD as stated and yet I am taking this objectively and looking at the bigger picture not just where there are similarities. If I wanted to I'm sure I could even find offense in the little bro running outside alone. This has happened to us and my 5 yo DD has run out and got her little sis and drug her back in. Does that mean I am being accused of abuse too? That's what I call a leap.

The posters who have shown concern have said time and time again that some of these things alone are no cause for alarm. But we're not looking at them alone. Why would I be only looking at the mother's left eye in a family portrait? The picture doesn't make much sense as a whole when we only choose to look at a few pieces.

Of course we are only able to see what the OP is painting for us which is- for like the 100th time- why I am not saying it is 100% no doubt abuse and I am not calling for the parent's heads or CPS/authorities to be involved. Just saying all of that together sounds a bit fishy.
:
post #113 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
I agree with this which is why we have also discussed the over-sexualization of our children in society as a whole on this thread.

FWIW I was 5 in 90/91 and looking at pictures of me then and going off of my memory we did not dress or act like kids do now. Sure we wanted to look more adult and we talked about sex but I was still wearing jumpers and big gaudy bows in my hair at 8 even. Now we have padded bikini tops in size 5/6. I'm pretty sure I remember still having that little attached ruffle skirt on my bathing suits well after that.
I was a kid in the 60s and I had a bikini at age 9. So did every other kid I knew. There was nothing sexy about it. Like the other clothes that children wear today, it was a matter purely of fashion. And, as I have pointed out on other threads, from what I can see of fashion cycles, it is not that childrens clothes have become more revealing and hence "adult", it is that adult clothes have become more revealing and hence "childish". Those who are younger or have very short memories seem to be unaware of that.
post #114 of 171
I spent the whole of the 70s in halter tops, bikinis, and short shorts. No one thought anything of it.

Edited to add: Summers only.
post #115 of 171
Again with the generalization. I said PADDED bikini. Now when i was a kid I wasn't allowed to wear a two piece at all which I think was lame but whatever. However all of my kids wear kid bikinis as it's just easier. There is a difference between kiddie 2 pieces and a padded bikini modeled to look like an adults.

And yes I am well aware of fashion cycles. Still I don't let fashion dictate what I find appropriate Though I disagree about the adult/child thing. It's not about the level being revealed but about the style, cut, etc. A little girls tank top and a woman's tank top have a different style, cut, etc. I am referring to more adult style and cut not more adult because it is more reveling. Same with bikinis.
post #116 of 171
It could have been padded for modesty's sake. I remember when I had breast buds wishing my bikini top were a bit padded to hide that.
post #117 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
If a child went up to another and playfully said "let's have sex" that's one thing but the way the OP describes it it seemed more of a proposition again the word is used to suggest a more "mature" attitude.
I didn't get that at all. What did I miss? I got that a little girl said she wanted to have sex with a little boy, and people are freaked out. If there was something else there, can you point me to it? Calling it a proposition is weird. She may have meant she wants to hug him or kiss him or bump bellies (literally). Children interpret stuff like this through their filters, not ours. I'm aware that people are using the word to suggest a more mature attitude...but that doesn't mean that the 5 year old girl in question has that attitude.

Quote:
Some apply to my DD as stated and yet I am taking this objectively and looking at the bigger picture not just where there are similarities
And, again...I don't know what "big picture" you're all talking about. I don't see any "big picture". I see a little girl who sounds as though she's watched a little too much adult tv and/or overheard a few conversations she shouldn't have, and who likes to be "pretty". There have been references to the red flag of precocious sex play. What sex play? She lifted her shirt "like a stripper". What does that even mean? Slowly? "Teasingly"? DD has done that...at the same age. It meant nothing. DD hasn't even been exposed to anything like that on tv...I think she may have picked it up from a cousin who watches a lot of tv, but I don't know, and I'm not worried about it. What other "sex play" has there been? About the only thing the OP mentioned, aside from the "babysitting" of her little brother, that doesn't apply to dd is the comment about adult spanking...and I could easily see her saying something that off the wall. (DS1 once answered the phone, at about 2, with "what do you want, and make it snappy, 'cause I'm drunk. I don't think he'd ever seen a drunk person and I have no idea where he got that.) This isn't about taking it personally, because dd likes to look pretty. It's about the fact that I can easily see dd in the girl in the OP, as described (aside from clothing, maybe, and at least half the little girls in this complex dress in clothes that I feel are too "mature" for them), and I'm feeling pretty icked out at the idea that people in our complex may be talking about her strutting around like a stripper, or how seductive she is.
Ick - I mean really - ick.

Quote:
The posters who have shown concern have said time and time again that some of these things alone are no cause for alarm. But we're not looking at them alone.
No - we're looking at a "big picture" that includes...being a "miniature super model", "seductively" removing her top in front of neighbourhood boys, "strutting", "propositioning" a neighbour boy and making an very off-colour comment about adult spanking. I guess I just don't see the picture the rest of you do.

Quote:
Of course we are only able to see what the OP is painting for us which is- for like the 100th time- why I am not saying it is 100% no doubt abuse and I am not calling for the parent's heads or CPS/authorities to be involved. Just saying all of that together sounds a bit fishy.
And, I'm saying that it doesn't sound fishy to me, and that the way the little girl is being talked about here turns my stomach. It's a very sexual way to talk about a little girl.
post #118 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just My Opinion View Post
OP, just tell your son to not engage with the girl if he feels so uncomfortable
This.

Quote:
-- and if you feel the need to address her mom, come from the perspective of protecting her daughter --

I seriously would not want to be the person who came to a mama like *me* telling me my daughter was acting "like a stripper". However, if someone came to me expressing that my little girl may be in danger, I might listen.
And, this.
post #119 of 171
First, it's highly unlikely she really knows what "sex" is. Kids at that age often repeat words or phrases they've heard. Also at that age I went through a stage of taking my clothes off with the neighborhood boys and girls that were my age and playing "you show me yours and I'll show you mine" It was all harmless and we were just curious to see what the other looked like. Honestly, it wasn't "sexual" as we had no sexual thoughts or desires. And the phase quickly passed. I would tell her parents only so they can be aware and maybe discuss with her. But if she was my child I wouldn't reproach her or be upset. She shouldn't be made to feel guilty for saying something that she probably has no idea what it means, and even if she does know what it means couldn't possibly understand completely.
post #120 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just My Opinion View Post
I agree with storm bride in the way this girl is being portrayed. If someone described my not-quite four year old as behaving "like a stripper" or as "propositioning" someone for sex, or the other things portrayed, I would be so pissed off, everyone in the darn neighborhood would know it.

... and what exactly does her being "pretty" have to do with it? I am hearing statements like, "oh she'd better be careful, she is so pretty" and whatnot -- because, those ugly kids are safe from molestation and if the "pretty" girl gets hurt, she shouldn't have been wearin' that tube top?

This thread is... icky.

OP, just tell your son to not engage with the girl if he feels so uncomfortable -- and if you feel the need to address her mom, come from the perspective of protecting her daughter --

I seriously would not want to be the person who came to a mama like *me* telling me my daughter was acting "like a stripper". However, if someone came to me expressing that my little girl may be in danger, I might listen.

I don;t know any other way to describe what she was doing.
She WAS moving in a way that is similar to how a stipper would move, while very slowly lifting her top and starting at the boys.

I have not said one bad thing about this little girl. I am simply trying to explain what I saw. It wasn't an innocent cutesy flash thing. It was very adult seeming. I know what I saw...How else am I supposed to describe it? She was gyrating the upper half of her body in that twisty/lunging way that strippers do. If someone else has a better word to use, great. But I am just trying to get the point across that it seemed really sexual. In an inappropriate way. I can promise that if any of you would have seen your daughter doing what I saw her do you would be concerned. I just don't know any other way to describe it.

I am not some sort of prude that doesn't understand normal child behaviour. I have never said that what this girl is doing is abnormal. I think it would be really mean and unfair to her if I no longer allowed my son to play with her because of this. And I would NEVER mention the 'moving like a stripper' thing to her mother.

As far as her being so pretty? Well last time I checked pretty girls tend to get more attention from boys. More of a chance that something bad could happen, or that she will come across a boy who says 'Yes' to her asking if they want to have sex. I feel like people are jumping to all sorts of conclusions. The only reason I started the thread was to mainly figure out where to go from here...how to guide my son etc.
I am in no way saying that the girl is a tramp who is asking to be raped or that she is being abused or anything like that.
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