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WWYD...Neighbor told DS she wants to have SEX with Him!! - Page 8

post #141 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
Well, there's where we differ. I sincerely hope I don't have a neighbour like the OP, because I don't want a bunch of weird speculation about dd's exploration of her own sexuality.
Gee, thanks.

You don't know me. If you did you would know that my house is where all the kids play. I watch the whole pack of neighbor kids day in and day out. We also share our garden harvest and with our neighbors and cook for all the kids. We are excellent neighbors.

I do not understand what I have said that would make you say that about me. Do you not believe that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive? How can you be so sure that I am wrong in my interpretation of this girl, who I see nearly every day? This has been an escalating pattern of behavior over the past few weeks. I am not saying that anything is going wrong for her, but I have a really bad gut feeling about it. I guess I should just ignore that feeling?

I really don;t understand WHAT I have done wrong here. I also don't understand what this has to do with your daughter
post #142 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
Well, there's where we differ. I sincerely hope I don't have a neighbour like the OP, because I don't want a bunch of weird speculation about dd's exploration of her own sexuality.
I wouldn't want that either but in the case where there are signs that line has been crossed you bet I'd rather be living next to her than someone who would rather rationalize it away for their own comfort. Not every child is just like your DD. Not every parent is you.
post #143 of 171
SB~ I have always enjoyed your posts but in this case I just have to scratch my head. It just seems like you are unable to separate your DD from this girl and these circumstances. You keep bringing up that your DD this or that and are unable to step back and look at the entire picture. Thats fine. We deal with what we know. What I fail to understand is why the recommendation to just be cautious is so outlandish to some people here. I. Don't. Get. It.

Sorry you are being drug through the mud here for giving a damn, dubfam!
post #144 of 171
I was a very boy crazy and "sex crazy" child as well. I wasn't abused or anything, I was just... precocious.

( My barbies were having orgies too. LOL I can't believe I just admitted that!)

One time my "girlfriends" were uncomfortable by a book I was reading in third grade that had boy craziness in it. ( I think it had some dating in it...whatever. )

I didn't however, start having sex at age 10 or anywhere CLOSE to that. LOL

I read thru this whole thread and I agree with where SB is coming from. Don't jump to conclusions, just politely inform the girls parents that her daughter said some grown up things to your son and then let them deal with it..

ETA: They might just need to sit her down and talk to her about boundaries and maybe buy her a book about her body, ya know?
post #145 of 171
There sure is a whole l0t going on in this thread. I actually just went to a talk by a pediatrician at my kid's preschool about sexual behavior among preschoolers. She divided up the behaviors into age-appropriate and normal, potentially normal but slightly concerning, and definitely abnormal "red flag" stuff. I think this little gir's behavior falls into the second catgeory and that we have no way of knowing what is going on. If I were the OP, I would speak to the parents. "There seems to be some sexualized talk going on between our kids and it's confusing and a little upsetting to my son. Can you talk with your daughter about it?" And then I would tell my son that he was right to tell me about it and review with him that no one should touch him in his bathing suit area and that if someone, ANYone, is talking about these things in a way that makes him uncomofrtable he should tell you. I would give him the words to say, "No, I don't want to play like that--let's play something else."

The ped classified the following as totally normal for a 5yo:

Asking questions about bodies, sex, where babies come from
Masturbation
Mutual noncoercive "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" between friends
Pee and poop talk

The following as something to watch carefully--might be normal, might be signs of abuse:
Explicit sexual talk
Repeated drawing of sexual body parts
Mutual masturbation
Simulating *explicit* sexual behavior with dolls
Very preoccupied with masturbating
Repeated, coercive pulling down of pants or skirts of others

The following as unacceptable behavior showing warning signs:
Coercive sexual play
Any penetrative play
Sexual behavior between kids more than 4 years apart in age
Wanting to touch genitals of any child, not just close friends
post #146 of 171
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loraxc View Post
There sure is a whole l0t going on in this thread. I actually just went to a talk by a pediatrician at my kid's preschool about sexual behavior among preschoolers. She divided up the behaviors into age-appropriate and normal, potentially normal but slightly concerning, and definitely abnormal "red flag" stuff. I think this little gir's behavior falls into the second catgeory and that we have no way of knowing what is going on. If I were the OP, I would speak to the parents. "There seems to be some sexualized talk going on between our kids and it's confusing and a little upsetting to my son. Can you talk with your daughter about it?" And then I would tell my son that he was right to tell me about it and review with him that no one should touch him in his bathing suit area and that if someone, ANYone, is talking about these things in a way that makes him uncomofrtable he should tell you. I would give him the words to say, "No, I don't want to play like that--let's play something else."

The ped classified the following as totally normal for a 5yo:

Asking questions about bodies, sex, where babies come from
Masturbation
Mutual noncoercive "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" between friends
Pee and poop talk

The following as something to watch carefully--might be normal, might be signs of abuse:
Explicit sexual talk
Repeated drawing of sexual body parts
Mutual masturbation
Simulating *explicit* sexual behavior with dolls
Very preoccupied with masturbating
Repeated, coercive pulling down of pants or skirts of others

The following as unacceptable behavior showing warning signs:
Coercive sexual play
Any penetrative play
Sexual behavior between kids more than 4 years apart in age
Wanting to touch genitals of any child, not just close friends
Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. I am not surprised that she is more the middle category. That is what I was thinking this whole time. Potential red flags.

I don;t think I am going to say anything to the parents, because I am concerned that they wont take it very well. Some people really freak out and overreact to this type of thing...and I don;t want this girl to be made to feel bad. I don't generally agree with the way I see them parent. If the little girl starts crying because it is time to go home they tell her to 'Stop acting like a baby' or she wont be allowed to come back again. DH overheard the dad tell the (BARELY) 2 year old to stop 'acting like a baby' because he was crying.

They also grounded her for a week when she was watching her brother outside and he almost got hit by a car. They still haven't figured out that they are expecting WAaaaaaayyy too much from her at 5.

I am not saying they are terrible parents, but they are really young and I don't know that they have much support. I think that most of their friends don't have kids yet. They are just doing the best they know how...
post #147 of 171
Thank you for posting that, loraxc!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Ok sorry but I have to say it! It's a pet peeve of mine!

Being young is no indicator and no excuse. When people are jerk parents it's because they are jerk parents not because of their age. Chances are they'd be that way 10 years from now.
post #148 of 171
I used to draw naked people all the time when i was in preschool and show the pictures to my friends...also, like i said, my barbies got it on a LOT, not sure what would classify as "explicit".

And like i said, i was never abused or anything...so just make sure you don't jump to conclusions
post #149 of 171
Beansmama, remember, those are "yellow light" behaviors--could be something, could be nothing, but something to keep an eye on.
post #150 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubfam View Post
Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. I am not surprised that she is more the middle category. That is what I was thinking this whole time. Potential red flags.

I don;t think I am going to say anything to the parents, because I am concerned that they wont take it very well. Some people really freak out and overreact to this type of thing...and I don;t want this girl to be made to feel bad. I don't generally agree with the way I see them parent. If the little girl starts crying because it is time to go home they tell her to 'Stop acting like a baby' or she wont be allowed to come back again. DH overheard the dad tell the (BARELY) 2 year old to stop 'acting like a baby' because he was crying.

They also grounded her for a week when she was watching her brother outside and he almost got hit by a car. They still haven't figured out that they are expecting WAaaaaaayyy too much from her at 5.

I am not saying they are terrible parents, but they are really young and I don't know that they have much support. I think that most of their friends don't have kids yet. They are just doing the best they know how...
Please tell the parent(s). They need to know truth regardless of how you think they will process it.
post #151 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotmamacita View Post
Please tell the parent(s). They need to know truth regardless of how you think they will process it.
Yes. Maybe going to just one? Like maybe pull the mother aside and just say "you know this and this happened and I just wanted to let you know my son was uncomfortable". I wouldn't say "and that is a potential sign of abuse" or anything but just let her/him/them know what happened.
post #152 of 171
so many of us identify or relate to something here.
Sometimes it's hard to deal with anything about sex, and it's always hard to know what to do about other people's kids.
You have your instincts pulling at you, and other forces which may cloud or squash your instincts.
On one hand, you feel you ought to speak to the girl's parents. On the other hand, if the child might be suffering abuse, you obviously don't want to risk making it worse for her.
I know I haven't said anything helpful here. But I think if you are genuinely concerned for the little girl, you should weasel & wedge yourself deeper into her life. For one thing, be very kind to her, avoid reprimanding her, and quietly gain her trust. She may begin telling you things which explain her behavior. A similar approach may work with her parents. Even if they aren't people you'd normally make friends with, do your best to befriend them. Smile and wave a lot, find things to compliment them about, invite them for a barbecue. I know it sounds dumb, but if you get to know everyone quite well, you may gain some insights. You may be able to help. If this little girl is being hurt at home, she needs an adult she can trust. Look in your heart, mama. Your guts have already told you, this adult might have to be you.
post #153 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by averlee View Post
Yes, maybe this is a little weird, maybe. But it's not outside the realm of normal 5-6 year old behavior.
This just makes me want to cry.
post #154 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by beansmama View Post
And like i said, i was never abused or anything...so just make sure you don't jump to conclusions
I think jumping to conclusions is much better than turning away when we see potential abuse. I was abused as a child. At least 3 mandated reporters knew of the abuse - 2 because I told them outright - and *none* of them did anything. Looking back, I suspect others knew - neighbors, some close family friends, certainly relatives - but again, they didn't do anything. Yes, that colors my view of what I see when it comes to children, but it's far more harmful to allow a child to continue in an abusive situation than to upset someone by mentioning inappropriate behavior.

As for this specific girl, I'd agree with the list lorax posted - that these comments/behaviors are potentially signs of abuse but not absolutely. I personally wouldn't want to live in the places where many of you seem to be. My children are 2 and 4, and the most controversial issues we've had with friends are over ones who get to have a TV in their bedroom and stay up really late. DS and I have been over appropriateness in terms of bodies, and I get a detailed story of the conversations he had at preschool daily. Nothing remotely sexual has come up, so I find the idea that this behavior is perfectly normal a bit of a stretch.
post #155 of 171
For people who think her behavior is on the second list, what specifically is where on that list? I'm not seeing it.

"Spanking is only OK if it's adults in the bedroom" isn't about children and isn't explicitly sexual. "I want to have sex with you" isn't even explicitly sexual. If she had said explicitly what she wanted to do, that would be, but she didn't. Pulling up her top isn't "Repeated, coercive pulling down of pants or skirts of others". Her behavior seems like it's hardly even in the first list. She told the boy she wanted to have sex with him, which is non-coercive sexual talk between friends. No one knows if she knew what "have sex" means, as what specifically she wanted to do wasn't stated explicitly. And she didn't tell him he had to do anything, she said what she wanted, so it wasn't coercive.

I wouldn't ignore red flags if I saw them, I'm just not seeing them, and I don't see anything that fits into the second category in that list either.

Edited to add - it sounds like a little girl who doesn't get enough supervision and watches TV that is too mature to her.
post #156 of 171
My own mother knew about my abuse and did nothing. Her boyfriend was more important to her. She still talked to him until recently when she lost touch.

So yes basically I agree with the above and also averlee you are right on here...
Quote:
You may be able to help. If this little girl is being hurt at home, she needs an adult she can trust. Look in your heart, mama. Your guts have already told you, this adult might have to be you.
post #157 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubfam View Post
Gee, thanks.

You don't know me. If you did you would know that my house is where all the kids play. I watch the whole pack of neighbor kids day in and day out. We also share our garden harvest and with our neighbors and cook for all the kids. We are excellent neighbors.

I do not understand what I have said that would make you say that about me. Do you not believe that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive? How can you be so sure that I am wrong in my interpretation of this girl, who I see nearly every day? This has been an escalating pattern of behavior over the past few weeks. I am not saying that anything is going wrong for her, but I have a really bad gut feeling about it. I guess I should just ignore that feeling?

I really don;t understand WHAT I have done wrong here. I also don't understand what this has to do with your daughter
My post that you quoted was in response to something someone else said about you as a neighbour. Based on her interpretation, I wouldn't want you for a neighbour.

Bad gut feelings are bad gut feelings. I have more respect for that than anything else you've said, to be honest.

What is has to do with my daughter is that I don't want my neighbours talking about her looking like a little stripper when she does her sexy poses and stuff. I don't even know where she picked that stuff up, but the odds of it being through sexual abuse are vanishingly small (she's with us pretty much 24/7).

Bad gut feelings are one thing. But, as I've said repeatedly, I don't see the things you've posted about (aside from the little brother) as red flags of any kind and a couple of them apply directly to my dd. Therefore, I'm forced to assume that if you were my neighbour, you'd also be talking about my dd's "stripper like" behaviour and "strutting" and "miniature super model" looks (dd is also one of those kids who never really looked like a baby - she has quite an adult little face, in many ways). It creeps me out.

And, no - I do not believe that a 5 year old can be "intentionally seductive", although I know what you mean when you say it. Once again, I find the way you phrase it really offensive to the 5 year old in question.

FWIW: A guy got off on molestation charges here years ago, because the judge felt that the victim was behaving in a provocative manner. She was three. I have serious problems with characterizing children's behaviour in these terms.
post #158 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
SB~ I have always enjoyed your posts but in this case I just have to scratch my head. It just seems like you are unable to separate your DD from this girl and these circumstances. You keep bringing up that your DD this or that and are unable to step back and look at the entire picture. Thats fine. We deal with what we know. What I fail to understand is why the recommendation to just be cautious is so outlandish to some people here. I. Don't. Get. It.
Why should I separate my dd? It's obvious that several of you, were you my neighbours, would be speculating about what kind of vile things were going on in my home, behind closed doors. You'll all turn around and claim you're not saying that, but you are.

If the OP has a gut feeling that something's wrong, I can respect that. If she mentioned that in her first post, I must have missed it. I wasn't basing my comments on gut feelings at all. I was basing my comments on a short list of behaviour that doesn't raise any red flags with me, that applies to a great extent to my dd, and that has resulted in labels and descriptions that turn my stomach being applied to a 5 year old girl.

I also just looked at the list someone posted, and most of this girl's behaviour doesn't fit into the second or third list, imo. It's either first list (eg. the lifting her top) or not there at all. So, again - where are the red flags?

I also have no idea what "be cautious" even means. She's already monitoring this girl's behaviour. So, what's she supposed to do now?
post #159 of 171
Quote:
FWIW: A guy got off on molestation charges here years ago, because the judge felt that the victim was behaving in a provocative manner. She was three. I have serious problems with characterizing children's behaviour in these terms.
Ok WTF????? See I have no problem with using those terms because hey let's call a duck a duck if that what it appears to be it is reasonable to describe it that way, IMO (not to say it IS what is going on but to use those terms to describe something isn't an issue for me). But what in the world would posses a judge to think that a GROWN MAN is ever in the right in taking something in a sexual manner from a CHILD????? A toddler, even. That makes no sense. None. It is the old school train of thought, IMO. "oh he couldn't help himself because she was flaunting it" :Puke There is no excuse for that. To use the wording as an excuse is.... ridiculous (the judge, not you). I don't care if she had nipple tassels on and bright red platform heels and was doing a striptease to make Carmen Electra jealous she is 3 for crying out loud. That's just........ disgusting because it doesn't surpise me in the least.

The truth is children can and do behave sexually out of innocence in general because it is a part of growing up (sometimes abuse is involved but not always which I'm pretty sure we have established on this thread ) but I am failing to see how that excuses an adult taking advantage of it.
post #160 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubfam View Post
Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. I am not surprised that she is more the middle category. That is what I was thinking this whole time. Potential red flags.
She's what? How is she in the middle category?
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