WWYD...Neighbor told DS she wants to have SEX with Him!! - Page 5

[choli]

Originally Posted by Fuamami

I'm kind of in the not-so-freaky camp, myself. I've actually made that spanking comment before, kind of tongue-in-cheek when explaining my GD stance, and I could see my kids accidentally overhearing it, though I always try not to let them hear me talk like that.

And I have a niece who would totally do something like the posing, or lifting up her shirt. And I kind of remember her even making little comments about sex. She didn't even watch that much TV, but she's what I would call "socially gifted", and she is really good at picking up on expressions, poses, body language, etc, and mimicking it.

So, I guess I'd tell the mom, but not the school.

Why is the shirt-lifting being described by some as flashing anyway? She is 5, there is nothing to flash. Are we now expected to tut tut about a 5 year old's chest?

[columbusmomma]

Originally Posted by zinemama

I was going to say that it was probably nothing: my 6yo once told my husband and me to stop having sex. We were kissing in a doorway. Even though he knew all about the "facts of life" he had somehow conflated the word "sex" with anything to do with hugging and kissing. So your op seemed like it could have an innocent explanation.

But the spanking comment? That's....unusual, to say the least. I would talk to the mother.

My 6 year old asked me if DH and I have sex. I said what does that mean? He said kissing......
unfortunately this situation doesn't sound like this "innocent" and I agree that talking with the parents would be a good idea!!

[mamazee]

My daughter has recently become a bit modest, but before that she would flash without thinking anything of it. She wouldn't even consider it sexual.

And she's seen commercials with "fancy ladies" as she calls them strutting around. I don't think I've ever seen her copy them, but I don't think it would be weird if she did. She described "fancy ladies" enough for me to understand that she's seen it.

I remember our little neighbor strutting around and singing very provocatively, "Don't cha wish your girlfriend would freak like me." And her mom saying, "That's it. Less TV for you!" But she obviously heard it and was dancing and singing like that. Within about two minutes of the mom making a nasty comment about me letting my dd wear a tank top or something she thought was provocative. My only thought was that it was good timing.

AND, if she watched the Family Guy, and if a line from it made me and/or her dad laugh, she would repeat it to anyone and everyone to see if it made anyone else laugh.

[jeminijad]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

Maybe it's nothing....but then, I wonder, when I was growing up, how many teachers, neighbors, etc saw in ME the sure signs of something not right at home...and brushed it off with "maybe it's nothing"? I don't know, all I know, is that it took until I was 16-17 for CPS to come to our home. My step dad moved in when I was eight. Do the math. There is no way, that at some point in time, SOMEONE didn't notice that something wasn't right. It's always something, that makes it easy to brush it off...in my case a charming mother and desirable lifestyle....for this girl...what? I'm not saying she's definitely being abused...maybe she's not. But maybe she is...she sure sounds to me lik e*something* isn't right.

As many of you who say this is normal....I jsut can't believe that it is. House, is normal for young kids...exploring bodies, being sexually curious...that is normal. This little girls situation doesn't seem normal to me.

Again, I would defer to those mamas who do have five year olds...because I think they are much better judges, but I'm disheartened to think, that this is what I have to look forward to in four years...my DD flashing people her chest, propositioning boys in the nieghborhood for sex acts and explaining that "spanking is for adults only - in the bedroom". Dressing sexy and strutting around like a model - I mean, REALLY, is this REALLY what I'm going to be looking at, in four years time? Because you guys keep saying "it's normal, it's normal..."

This!

My 5 year old friends and I did not behave like this. Sex just didn't come up. Really.

What a shame if something terrible is going on and the pervasiveness of sex in our culture makes the warning signs seem "normal."

[Teenytoona]

But not little girl pretty...more like a miniature super model. And she flaunts herself around. In fact, I just remembered that last weekend I thought I saw her lifting her bikini top up ( in a VERY seductive way...like a stripper!)

Bolding mine.

What I bolded were the two warning signs to me. The looks because I've heard of pedophiles to "justify" their actions due to a "mature" looking child. And the fact that she's not just being goofy and lifting her shirt (like alot of little girls do), but she's doing it in a seductive/stripper type way is not normal five year old play.

I'm saying this also as I know adults who as children, did have sex this young with other kids that age, and there was sexual abuse among those children, the kids learned it from adults. That's why the warning flag here.

Sex positive is teaching older children/teens/young adults that their sexuality is not taken from them (for example: debunking the trembling scared virgin/well seasoned conquering man archetype) but theirs to own and learn about and grow from, something that is shared freely with a respectful partner. Sex positive is NOT teaching a child how to act like a man's ideal stripper. Big difference in the two. HUGE.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Originally Posted by choli

Why is the shirt-lifting being described by some as flashing anyway? She is 5, there is nothing to flash. Are we now expected to tut tut about a 5 year old's chest?

NO!

THIS is what bothers me so much about discussions like this...all of the sudden, the people who are shocked by something like this, become the "prudish busy bodies who are being nosey and making big deals out of nothing and who are probably really fridgid and making sexual a childs body when it's NOT!" - I have a wonderful and healthy sexual relatipnship with my DH, sex is a free and easy subject in my household and bodies are NOT shameful here.

I do NOT "tut tut" a childs body...in fact, I LOVE naked children. NOTHING is more beautiful to me, than the naked three/four/ five year old, dancing through the sprinklers in her yard, completely unaware of the fact that anyone else might be wishing she put some clothes on. I love a child, being okay with their body....I see a three year old, in naked defiance...running wild and free...and I think to myself "God, mama of this child, lethim be free and naked, let him live without body shame and self concsious modesty as long as he can!" - I truly, truly do not "tut tut" or think a childs body is sexual and therefore should be hidden....BUT

I can't wrap my head around a five year old little girl, propositioning a neighborhood boy for sex, AND pulling up her bikini top in a seductive (not playful) manner AND talking about "spanking in the bedroom" AND strutting like a super model ALL IN a neighborhood where, apparently, ten year olds are having sex AND WHILE she is the babysitter for her two year old brother. If she's in charge of watching her two year old sibling...who is in charge of watching HER? I just think that everything combined....the chances are a little higher, that this revealing her flat, childs chest...MAY BE less about a defiant act of learned-on-TV sexual behavior, so much as maybe behavior that is encouraged by saaaay, a creepy uncle or neighbor. I mean, someone doesn't HAVE to be touching her (yet) for them to be planting seeds. THe OP described this girl as being one of those little girls who is very pretty, in a "tiny super model" kind of way. You've seen the young girls like this...strikingly beautiful girls, who have very "super model-ish" features, like those little beauty queens, who look like pint sized, grown women.

I think bodies are beautiful. I remember when I was in kidergarten, we would go on the monkey bars and taunt the boys and when they came close, we would quickly flip upside down, so our undies would show and then taunt them louder "Haha! Stupid boys!! HAHAH!" and they would be grossed out and run away and we would shake our little tushes at them....somehow, this panty power we had, was thrilling to us. We were way too little to understand that this was the beginning of our fist awareness of our own sexuality, what it ment to us and the effect it had on the opposite sex, which would one day become so impotant to us....but we didn't care. All we knew, was we "fought" the boys, because, obviously boys were gross, because they thought that we were gross...and somehow our panties were like nerve gas to them....it was a game!

This little girl is not playing games...she is interacting in a sexual way with her peers, she is trying t oattract sexual attention...she is obviously NOT treated liket eh kid she is, at home, if she is put in charge of the two year old sibling...so, I am led to wonder, in what other ways, is this child being treated like an adult? What if she struts her little "pint sized super model" self, around the wrong uncle...or a neighbor who is dangerous...I mean, would anyone notice she was gone, if she wandered ito the lawn of the guy who lives across the street and has been watching her strutting, lifting up her shirt, etc...? What about these ten year olds in the neighborhood having sex? What if she propositioned ONE OF THEM?

All I'm saying is....I'm less worried about a kid who is playing "yucky boys, let's 'get them' with our panties!" or a kid who is flashing her little flat chest...who has involved parents at home keeping an eye on her, meeting her sexual curiosity with information that fits with age appropriate sexual values....explaining that sex is not something you do with the six year old neighbor. I'm less worried about a kid displaying this behavior, who has parents at home who care and are involved....this girl is left alone to watch her two year old brother...anyone want to put money down, on how supportive and instructive her parents are, in her sexual play?

Again...maybe this is so shocking to me, becase I have a one year old, because I'm not ready for her to start growing up and knowing what sex is...maybe that's it. Again, I respect SO MUCH the input of you mamas who I *know* care about protecting your own five year olds, who say this is normal...but when I think back to my 5/6/7 year old friends and I and the sx play we were involved in...it wasn't like this. It was big groups of us, someone acting as officiant and marrying us off in pairs...then we had to play house and went under the playground platforms and that was our "house"...you know? It was all about that...it wasn't SEXY. It wasn't RAUNCHY...no one knew anything about seducing a boy with sexy body movements and sex talk. I don't know. Ugh.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Originally Posted by Teenytoona

Bolding mine.

What I bolded were the two warning signs to me. The looks because I've heard of pedophiles to "justify" their actions due to a "mature" looking child. And the fact that she's not just being goofy and lifting her shirt (like alot of little girls do), but she's doing it in a seductive/stripper type way is not normal five year old play.

I'm saying this also as I know adults who as children, did have sex this young with other kids that age, and there was sexual abuse among those children, the kids learned it from adults. That's why the warning flag here.

Sex positive is teaching older children/teens/young adults that their sexuality is not taken from them (for example: debunking the trembling scared virgin/well seasoned conquering man archetype) but theirs to own and learn about and grow from, something that is shared freely with a respectful partner. Sex positive is NOT teaching a child how to act like a man's ideal stripper. Big difference in the two. HUGE.

Thank you thank you thank you.....I tell me DH all the time, when he starts in with "well my DD is going into a tower when she turns 13, I can't cope with boyfriends, how can I let me little girlout of my sight!" - I tell him...okay, but that's not creating a sexually empowered young woman! To which he replies...practically pale and shaking, as our beautiful one year old chews on a piece of carrot, looking at him with a blank, cutesy stare...."She is not going to be sexually ANYTHING!" Sexually EMPOWERED!!???"

And I say, yes, here's why: "When you act as if her sexuality is something for you to gaurd with an iron fist, against all of these "takers" of sex out there..you turn it into a war for her sex, basically. The idea that the girls sexuality is something for the father to gaurd, until a man "mighty" enough is deemed worthy to come and take it from the father, into his posession, creates a young girl, who doesn' suppose that she is supposed to have any say in her sexuality..." - this girl, is the trembling virgin.

I don't ever want my darling girl, to "lose" her virginity. I don't want her virginity "taken", ether...as much as I also don't want it given away. I want it to be exchanged for something. I want her first sexual exchange, to be a willing act, that is exciting and meaningful to her...I don't NEED it to be after she's 18, or after she's married...I wouldn't even WANT her to wait until she was married, to have sex, unless that was her true true desire. I want her sexuality to be powerful within her, I want her to feel sexually powerful and I want her sexual space and time to feel sacred. I want her to see her sexuality, not as a prize, for the mightiest....but the gift, of her own, which she can decide to give to the young man who touches her heart in such a way that he has EARNED it. I want her to own who she is, sexually.

I want my girl, to be FIERCE in her girlhood....I want my son, if I have one, to be FIERCE also in his boyhood...and to also be a sexually empowered human...NOT in the sense that many young men think they are, these days. I want my son, to respect the exchange...to WANT that exchange with a person who is enters into an emotional space with him, that will make it MEAN something.

I'd rather my children, have meaningful sex for the first time at 15....than to have meaningless sex at 18/19/20/after they're married. Maybe you say, fifteen is too young...I would tend to agree...maybe you would say, fifteen year olds CAN'T have meaningful sex...okay, bu they can have tender sex. They can love someone, respect someone...care a great deal, for someone. The exchange can leave them feeling beautiful, cared for...respected. They can look back on it in their older years and recognize how clumsy it was, how immature they were....but still be warmed by the memory of how tender their partner was, how careful and how they both felt scared, but ready and wonderful.

Instead of like how many of us...who look back and think "Why did I think he was so great...why did I let him make me feel like I *had* to...why didn't I realize, that having sex, because you're scared he'll stop liking you, wasn't a good reason" - I know too many women who had this experience.

Anyway...here I go a'rambling again..

[mysticmomma]

I'd be sure to bring up what he said about the 10 year olds having sex.

[Teenytoona]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

Thank you thank you thank you.....I tell me DH all the time, when he starts in with "well my DD is going into a tower when she turns 13, I can't cope with boyfriends, how can I let me little girlout of my sight!" - I tell him...okay, but that's not creating a sexually empowered young woman! To which he replies...practically pale and shaking, as our beautiful one year old chews on a piece of carrot, looking at him with a blank, cutesy stare...."She is not going to be sexually ANYTHING!" Sexually EMPOWERED!!???"

And I say, yes, here's why: "When you act as if her sexuality is something for you to gaurd with an iron fist, against all of these "takers" of sex out there..you turn it into a war for her sex, basically. The idea that the girls sexuality is something for the father to gaurd, until a man "mighty" enough is deemed worthy to come and take it from the father, into his posession, creates a young girl, who doesn' suppose that she is supposed to have any say in her sexuality..." - this girl, is the trembling virgin.

I don't ever want my darling girl, to "lose" her virginity. I don't want her virginity "taken", ether...as much as I also don't want it given away. I want it to be exchanged for something. I want her first sexual exchange, to be a willing act, that is exciting and meaningful to her...I don't NEED it to be after she's 18, or after she's married...I wouldn't even WANT her to wait until she was married, to have sex, unless that was her true true desire. I want her sexuality to be powerful within her, I want her to feel sexually powerful and I want her sexual space and time to feel sacred. I want her to see her sexuality, not as a prize, for the mightiest....but the gift, of her own, which she can decide to give to the young man who touches her heart in such a way that he has EARNED it. I want her to own who she is, sexually.

I want my girl, to be FIERCE in her girlhood....I want my son, if I have one, to be FIERCE also in his boyhood...and to also be a sexually empowered human...NOT in the sense that many young men think they are, these days. I want my son, to respect the exchange...to WANT that exchange with a person who is enters into an emotional space with him, that will make it MEAN something.

I'd rather my children, have meaningful sex for the first time at 15....than to have meaningless sex at 18/19/20/after they're married. Maybe you say, fifteen is too young...I would tend to agree...maybe you would say, fifteen year olds CAN'T have meaningful sex...okay, bu they can have tender sex. They can love someone, respect someone...care a great deal, for someone. The exchange can leave them feeling beautiful, cared for...respected. They can look back on it in their older years and recognize how clumsy it was, how immature they were....but still be warmed by the memory of how tender their partner was, how careful and how they both felt scared, but ready and wonderful.

Instead of like how many of us...who look back and think "Why did I think he was so great...why did I let him make me feel like I *had* to...why didn't I realize, that having sex, because you're scared he'll stop liking you, wasn't a good reason" - I know too many women who had this experience.

Anyway...here I go a'rambling again..

I like your ramblin'! Yes yes yes to everything you've said here!

[KristaDJ]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

NO!


All I'm saying is....I'm less worried about a kid who is playing "yucky boys, let's 'get them' with our panties!" or a kid who is flashing her little flat chest...who has involved parents at home keeping an eye on her, meeting her sexual curiosity with information that fits with age appropriate sexual values....explaining that sex is not something you do with the six year old neighbor. I'm less worried about a kid displaying this behavior, who has parents at home who care and are involved....this girl is left alone to watch her two year old brother...anyone want to put money down, on how supportive and instructive her parents are, in her sexual play?

I respect SO MUCH the input of you mamas who I *know* care about protecting your own five year olds, who say this is normal...but when I think back to my 5/6/7 year old friends and I and the sx play we were involved in...it wasn't like this. .

Totally agree on the first part and though I may get flamed for my thoughts on the second part here they are: Look at what else our society considers normal; spanking children, leaving tiny babies in cribs to scream all alone, consenting to medical procedures with no information, having males babies' genitals sliced etc, etc.... Just because it may be "typical" and normal in today's world for young children to engage in sex play and mimic overtly sexual adult behavior that DOES. NOT. MAKE. IT. HEALTHY.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by choli

Why is the shirt-lifting being described by some as flashing anyway? She is 5, there is nothing to flash. Are we now expected to tut tut about a 5 year old's chest?

It wasn't that she was showing her chest but HOW she was doing it.

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

THIS is what bothers me so much about discussions like this...all of the sudden, the people who are shocked by something like this, become the "prudish busy bodies who are being nosey and making big deals out of nothing and who are probably really fridgid and making sexual a childs body when it's NOT!" - I have a wonderful and healthy sexual relatipnship with my DH, sex is a free and easy subject in my household and bodies are NOT shameful here.

I do NOT "tut tut" a childs body

Thank you!!! My mother was also molested like I was but she took a different route- one of shame for sex and the body. I will NEVER do that to my children! It is as much of a disservice as over-sexualization.

This little girl is not playing games...she is interacting in a sexual way with her peers, she is trying t oattract sexual attention...she is obviously NOT treated liket eh kid she is, at home, if she is put in charge of the two year old sibling...so, I am led to wonder, in what other ways, is this child being treated like an adult? What if she struts her little "pint sized super model" self, around the wrong uncle...or a neighbor who is dangerous...I mean, would anyone notice she was gone, if she wandered ito the lawn of the guy who lives across the street and has been watching her strutting, lifting up her shirt, etc...? What about these ten year olds in the neighborhood having sex? What if she propositioned ONE OF THEM?

All I'm saying is....I'm less worried about a kid who is playing "yucky boys, let's 'get them' with our panties!" or a kid who is flashing her little flat chest...who has involved parents at home keeping an eye on her, meeting her sexual curiosity with information that fits with age appropriate sexual values....explaining that sex is not something you do with the six year old neighbor. I'm less worried about a kid displaying this behavior, who has parents at home who care and are involved....this girl is left alone to watch her two year old brother...anyone want to put money down, on how supportive and instructive her parents are, in her sexual play?

Exactly this.

Originally Posted by Teenytoona

Sex positive is teaching older children/teens/young adults that their sexuality is not taken from them (for example: debunking the trembling scared virgin/well seasoned conquering man archetype) but theirs to own and learn about and grow from, something that is shared freely with a respectful partner. Sex positive is NOT teaching a child how to act like a man's ideal stripper. Big difference in the two. HUGE.

Thank you, Teeny!

[BlueStateMama]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

Thank you thank you thank you.....I tell me DH all the time, when he starts in with "well my DD is going into a tower when she turns 13, I can't cope with boyfriends, how can I let me little girlout of my sight!" - I tell him...okay, but that's not creating a sexually empowered young woman! To which he replies...practically pale and shaking, as our beautiful one year old chews on a piece of carrot, looking at him with a blank, cutesy stare...."She is not going to be sexually ANYTHING!" Sexually EMPOWERED!!???"

And I say, yes, here's why: "When you act as if her sexuality is something for you to gaurd with an iron fist, against all of these "takers" of sex out there..you turn it into a war for her sex, basically. The idea that the girls sexuality is something for the father to gaurd, until a man "mighty" enough is deemed worthy to come and take it from the father, into his posession, creates a young girl, who doesn' suppose that she is supposed to have any say in her sexuality..." - this girl, is the trembling virgin.

I don't ever want my darling girl, to "lose" her virginity. I don't want her virginity "taken", ether...as much as I also don't want it given away. I want it to be exchanged for something. I want her first sexual exchange, to be a willing act, that is exciting and meaningful to her...I don't NEED it to be after she's 18, or after she's married...I wouldn't even WANT her to wait until she was married, to have sex, unless that was her true true desire. I want her sexuality to be powerful within her, I want her to feel sexually powerful and I want her sexual space and time to feel sacred. I want her to see her sexuality, not as a prize, for the mightiest....but the gift, of her own, which she can decide to give to the young man who touches her heart in such a way that he has EARNED it. I want her to own who she is, sexually.

I want my girl, to be FIERCE in her girlhood....I want my son, if I have one, to be FIERCE also in his boyhood...and to also be a sexually empowered human...NOT in the sense that many young men think they are, these days. I want my son, to respect the exchange...to WANT that exchange with a person who is enters into an emotional space with him, that will make it MEAN something.

I'd rather my children, have meaningful sex for the first time at 15....than to have meaningless sex at 18/19/20/after they're married. Maybe you say, fifteen is too young...I would tend to agree...maybe you would say, fifteen year olds CAN'T have meaningful sex...okay, bu they can have tender sex. They can love someone, respect someone...care a great deal, for someone. The exchange can leave them feeling beautiful, cared for...respected. They can look back on it in their older years and recognize how clumsy it was, how immature they were....but still be warmed by the memory of how tender their partner was, how careful and how they both felt scared, but ready and wonderful.

Instead of like how many of us...who look back and think "Why did I think he was so great...why did I let him make me feel like I *had* to...why didn't I realize, that having sex, because you're scared he'll stop liking you, wasn't a good reason" - I know too many women who had this experience.

Anyway...here I go a'rambling again..

Wow. Thank you for wording so elequently my own thoughts about how I want to raise my children, esp DD, to view sexuality and the concept of "virginity." I will likely be stealing your words - because I've tried to explain my thought process on this to my DH and my own mom and couldn't quite find a way to do so. I agree so much with what you've said!!!

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

I can't wrap my head around a five year old little girl, propositioning a neighborhood boy for sex,

Calling this propositioning is putting our adult baggage on it. I've seen this multiple times in this thread. None of us, including the OP, were there when she said it, and none of us know how it was said. Unless the OP left something out, I didn't see/hear anything there that sounded like a proposition. It could have meant anything, including a variant on the "I want to kiss you".

AND pulling up her bikini top in a seductive (not playful) manner

Again, this is very subjective. What makes it seductive? As I said earlier, i saw dd and two other little girls in our complex posing in what could be construed as a sexy way. Nobody was looking at it that way, but the body language was there, if one were disposed to see it that way (dd had one hand up by her head, "fluffing" her hairdo, and one knee raised, with her leg kind of across her body - hard to describe, but I've seen it many times, and it's a classic "sexy" pose). I've seen her raise her top in a teasing kind of fashion...she's flirting with the idea of taboos, not with sex.

AND talking about "spanking in the bedroom"

This one doesn't even faze me, and I'm kind of surprised at how much it seems to be weighing on most poster's minds. This is totally the kind of thing i hear from kids who watch a lot of tv, have older siblings, and/or have parents who aren't careful about what they say in front of their kids. Particularly with the "adults only" side of it, it just doesn't raise any flags at all.

AND strutting like a super model

Again...totally subjective. Some little girls have a very flirty manner about them, whether they know the word sex or have heard of adult spanking or not. If they're also wearing a lot of the common fashions for little girls, they're going to seem like "miniature super models". I've also seen a lot of that when the mom (or an older female sibling/aunt/neighbour) puts a lot of effort into looking attractive.

ALL IN a neighborhood where, apparently, ten year olds are having sex

In a neighbourhood where this is happening? I'm not following the thinking here. Kids are having sex younger and younger and have been for a while. Some of that is cultural, and some of it is also probably related to our over sexed culture. It's also not something the OP knows for herself...and I know that, even 25 years ago, lots of people were claiming to be sexually active long before they actually were.

AND WHILE she is the babysitter for her two year old brother.

This is the single thing that really worries me, personally.

....the chances are a little higher, that this revealing her flat, childs chest...MAY BE less about a defiant act of learned-on-TV sexual behavior, so much as maybe behavior that is encouraged by saaaay, a creepy uncle or neighbor.

Honestly, it doesn't strike me as either. I don't see it as defiant at all.

Whoops...deleted farther than I meant to. I can't relate to the "panty power" games at all. My best friends were boys and that whole weird "girls have cooties" thing was never part of my reality at all.

This little girl is not playing games...she is interacting in a sexual way with her peers, she is trying t oattract sexual attention

I haven't seen a single thing from the OP that suggests to me that this girl is even aware, on any real level, of what sexual attention is. I think there's a lot of adults putting their own perceptions of sexuality on this child.

What about these ten year olds in the neighborhood having sex? What if she propositioned ONE OF THEM?

Say what? I remember the younger kids at my school who were having sex (or at least sexual contact...oral, if nothing else) at a young age - 12, not 10. There wasn't one of them who would have taken a 5 year old up on a comment like that...not one. They were interacting with kids their own age, who were at a similar level of sexual development. Being a sexually active 10 year old may be screwed up, but it doesn't automatically make a child a predator.

All I'm saying is....I'm less worried about a kid who is playing "yucky boys, let's 'get them' with our panties!" or a kid who is flashing her little flat chest...who has involved parents at home keeping an eye on her, meeting her sexual curiosity with information that fits with age appropriate sexual values....explaining that sex is not something you do with the six year old neighbor. I'm less worried about a kid displaying this behavior, who has parents at home who care and are involved....this girl is left alone to watch her two year old brother...anyone want to put money down, on how supportive and instructive her parents are, in her sexual play?

There's no way to tell. I know a woman whose children have been almost totally unsupervised since they were very, very little (the 6 year old used to watch the baby/toddler while his parents were outside smoking and having a few beer. The older boy was instructed to call them if the baby needed them. This particular mom - the dad is now out of the picture - is also frequently guilty of saying highly sexual things where her children can overhear them. She also answers their questions about nudity and sex in a very honest, age-appropriate fashion. The two (neglect and sex play) don't necessarily have anything to do with each other.

[holyhelianthus]

But does it hurt to keep your eyes open? To talk to mom or dad or both?

As has been stated, though some may not see it that way, these are still signs of abuse. It doesn't mean there is abuse but why is it so wrong to err on the side of caution? We can rationalize it all we want but I would rather be more alert and it be nothing than ignore it and there really be an issue.

[Storm Bride]

AverysMomma: I like your post on sexuality, but I have to say I don't really agree with your view on virginity, either. I don't see it as a prize or a gift. It's a biological state, and the emphasis put on it, as either a prize or a gift, makes me want to puke.

My first time was with someone I chose deliberately, but barely knew. He didn't know until afterwards that I was a virgin, and I wanted it that way, too. The decisions were entirely mine, and nobody else's, but I didn't "give" him anything. We had sex (pretty good, actually). He broke my hymen. No gift. I can kind of see the "exchange" thing, but I still don't see virginity as something to exchange. All these terms still have overtones of a girl or woman's hymen being a commodity. That's not a message I want to send, yk?

I've had a few conversations in this vein with dh about dd, too. The whole "lock her up and get a rifle" mindset creeps me out (and, no - dh would never, ever actually get a gun). I didn't grow up with that, and I think I thought it was fictional until I was about 18. I know, from living with ds1 over the last couple of years, that it can be unnerving to have your child blossom into a sexual being, with intimate relationships of their own...but there's a strong undercurrent of ownership involved where dads and daughters are concerned. It's been around for a long, long time, and it's socially sanctioned - but it still weirds me out.

BTW, fifteen isn't too young for meaningful sex, imo. It's not about a calendar age - it's about a state of mind. While my ex and I crashed and burned spectacularly, we had about 7-8 really good years at the beginning...and we started having sex at 15 (him) and 16 (me). It wasn't meaningless at all.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by magstphil

But does it hurt to keep your eyes open? To talk to mom or dad or both?

As has been stated, though some may not see it that way, these are still signs of abuse. It doesn't mean there is abuse but why is it so wrong to err on the side of caution? We can rationalize it all we want but I would rather be more alert and it be nothing than ignore it and there really be an issue.

It never hurts to keep your eyes open. If there is abuse, I'm not sure what talking to the parents would accomplish. In most cases, it's a relative or close family friend, and if they're not seeing it, there's a good chance they don't want to (or that it's one of them). It might help, though.

I'm more bothered by the tone of comments about this little girl. All in the name of protecting her innocence, she's being talked about in this thread like she's a prostitute or something - "propositioning", "strutting", "seductive". Is this really necessary?

[choli]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

It never hurts to keep your eyes open. If there is abuse, I'm not sure what talking to the parents would accomplish. In most cases, it's a relative or close family friend, and if they're not seeing it, there's a good chance they don't want to (or that it's one of them). It might help, though.

I'm more bothered by the tone of comments about this little girl. All in the name of protecting her innocence, she's being talked about in this thread like she's a prostitute or something - "propositioning", "strutting", "seductive". Is this really necessary?

Again, I 100% agree with Storm Bride. There is a lot of projection going on in this thread.

[holyhelianthus]

Maybe the projecting is coming from the thought that we are viewing this little girl as a "prostitute or something" as I have not meant that or felt that to be the case. Really it makes no sense. If we felt she was that way why would we be showing concern for her and our own little girls in this society? I see a lot more projecting happening in the defensiveness surrounding the over-sexualization of our girls and this one in particular.

But more than likely we are coming at this from different angels.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by magstphil

Maybe the projecting is coming from the thought that we are viewing this little girl as a "prostitute or something" as I have not meant that or felt that to be the case. Really it makes no sense. If we felt she was that way why would we be showing concern for her and our own little girls in this society?

A bunch of people who have never set eyes on this girl are talking about her propositioning a neighbour boy, about her "strutting" and about her seductive behaviour. This is all based on the OP's subjective impressions of her behaviour. Even the comments about her strutting around some neighbourhood creep or approaching one of the 10 year old who are having sex are really upsetting to me. If there's a creep in the neighbourhood, it's obviously possible that he/she is a contributing factor in this girl's behaviour...but there's no reason to suggest that her behaviour is going to bring sexual abuse down on her head. Honestly, it smacks a lot of the old "well, she asked to be raped, because she's wearing a short skirt" attitude...only applied to a 5 year old.

The concern in this thread is, imo, tainted by a certain amount of "well, she's a ruined girl (woman) now", which bothers me immensely. Nobody even knows how sexualized this girl is or isn't. We have the subjective impressions of one woman, and a couple of comments the girl has made, that probably aren't even verbatim.

I see a lot more projecting happening in the defensiveness surrounding the over-sexualization of our girls and this one in particular.

I think the over-sexualization of our children, both boys and girls, is sick. I'm just not sure what it has to do with this particular girl, or why people are jumping to conclusions about abuse and lost innocence. "Innocence" is a pretty slippery concept in this regard. In many, many cultures, throughout human history, children have seen sex from the time they were babies...yet many of those same cultures are far more "innocent" than our own, in many ways.

Children explore their sexuality in a lot of ways. DS2 is inordinately proud of his penis and his retracting foreskin, and went through a phase where he wanted to show it to everybody, because it was "so cool". Being the somewhat pushy kid that he is, and considering how much trouble we're having getting him to understand other people's boundaries, I could also see him doing that after someone said they didn't want to see it. Does that make him a sexually abused child? Children manifest what they know and learn in different ways.

As I said, we had a little boy instigating inappropriate play with dd. We dug into it a little and it came from something he saw/heard on Family Guy. Do I think Family Guy is appropriate for a 5 year old? Not at all. But, he wasn't actually allowed to watch it, and, as much as I don't like it, I don't think the fact that he did see it qualifies as sexual abuse, yk?

When I was a kid, people barely even admitted that sexual abuse existed. When it did come up, in veiled terms, it was always some "weird" person in the neighbourhood that people were concerned about. Now, we know that's not how it works...but the pendulum has swung too far the other way. If children aren't completely asexual, in every way, there's always someone who is ready to throw up the "he/she is being sexually abused" flag. It concerns me. Children are sexual, even though it's not the same as adult sexuality.

[holyhelianthus]

I think a lot of conclusions are being jumped to in *why* those who are concerned are concerned. So much of what you posted, SB, is just so way off in my own feelings on the subject I can't help but wonder where you are getting it.

No one has said children are not or should not be sexual. Again it is the level that is being discussed here and the multiple warning signs that even go beyond the sexual. Someone showing concern for a little girls sexual actions is not the same as viewing her as "ruined". How disgusting that would be! And the "well she was asking to be raped by wearing the mini skirt"? Seriously, where is this coming from?

Again, in my home we are open about sex and the human body. Call me crazy but kids running around nude or pulling up their shirts/pulling down their pants is just not something to freak over. Currently my 2 youngest have taken to pulling apart their labias and making pee noises for a laugh at each other. Of course they haven't learned that company doesn't really want to see them running around doing that but they're kids! Speaking for myself to say I am "tut tut"ing the human body or am being too prudish or whatever is just downright hilarious. At least DH and I did have a good laugh over it.

No one is attacking this little girl or making her out to be the bad guy. We are concerned. And how is that a bad thing- being concerned for a child? I have freely admitted that abuse might not be involved at all (meaning sexual in nature as obviously her being charged with her 2 yo bro is neglect/abuse). I have said that I would not be surprised if this was all just learned from the TV and have discussed the greater issue of over-sexualization in our society. Really, I see our children as victims in this not as the "enemy". How bizare to blame a child...

I think there is too much of a generalization here. People are assuming that sense we are showing concern we are anti-sex in general. It's just not that black and white.