UPDATE: post #154 I'm at a loss, really, I just cant' believe a parent can have so little regard... - Page 2

[earthgirl]

Originally Posted by KristaDJ

I have never IRL seen a baby/child properly restrained in the car unless I put them in myself.

Really? That's so depressing.

[dearmama22]

Originally Posted by mamadelbosque

I'll bet their just renting a carseat. Maybe not the safest thing to do on the planet, but its what a LOT of people do when they travel... and tbh, probably what we'd do if we were flying across the country. I just can't imagine lugging a carseat around with us.

That's what I was thinking...

[chickabiddy]

Originally Posted by earthgirl

Really? That's so depressing.

I've checked over a hundred seats and haven't seen one perfect installation/use yet. To be fair, some misuses are more technical than critical (in other words, it's not right, but it probably won't significantly affect outcome), but lots *are* critical.

I know that these parents love their kids and care for their kids. They just don't know how to keep them safe. And as horrified as I might be about carseat misuse, they might be equally horrified at the (very) occasional Happy Meal my daughter gets or the computer time she's allowed.

[no5no5]

It seems like this may be an unpopular opinion, but I'm cool with that.

I recently watched a video on TED indicating that there is evidence that seat belts are just as safe as car seats for kids 2 & up. In fact, given that most car seats are installed incorrectly, and most seat belts are foolproof, seat belts may be safer. I was so convinced that I would totally switch my DD if it weren't for the legal issues.

What really shocks me is when I see people with their kids in car seats with the straps fastened but so loose they hang down, or with car seats that wobble all around...ugh. Those kids are absolutely NOT safe.

[Sailor]

Could it be a cultural thing? Are they from a country other than America?

In some countries, the car seat is the minority. Say, in India. I never saw anyone use a car seat there, and the driving there - wow. I was scared to rent a car to get around.

I've even seen, in Italy, parents on mopeds with their 3 year olds standing in between their legs as they weaved in and out of traffic. They did have helmets, though.

In Poland, car seats really got big in the last 10 years. Before that, hardly anyone used them. I was born in 1982, and NEVER sat in a car seat. Not even when I was 5, and moved to America.

I really think it's one of those things that has nothing to do with how much a parent regards their child's safety. I think it's more that the parent's don't consider that anything will ever happen. So, car safety, to them isn't that big of a deal because they don't ever think it will happen to them. And, really, if you look at the statistics on this, they're not being that irrational or blind.

[hookahgirl]

I babysat for someone who had her just turned 3 y/o in a backless booster and her 5 y/o in nothing, my almost 3 y/o was still RFing.....gawd that was the longest three minute drive to their preschool ever! I felt like I was going to puke the whole time.
Cute thing though, the 3 y/o asked my 2 y/o why she was "In a baby carseat" and my DD said, "Im not a baby, so this isnt a baby carseat, silly!"
LOL

[Equuskia]

Originally Posted by no5no5

It seems like this may be an unpopular opinion, but I'm cool with that.

I recently watched a video on TED indicating that there is evidence that seat belts are just as safe as car seats for kids 2 & up. In fact, given that most car seats are installed incorrectly, and most seat belts are foolproof, seat belts may be safer. I was so convinced that I would totally switch my DD if it weren't for the legal issues.

What really shocks me is when I see people with their kids in car seats with the straps fastened but so lose they hang down, or with car seats that wobble all around...ugh. Those kids are absolutely NOT safe.

This horse has already been beaten to death many times here. His methods are faulty, and there is no way that a 2 year old child can fit properly in a seatbelt that is built for an over 5 ft, 150 pound adult. Until a child can pass the 5 step test, they are not ready to sit in just a seatbelt. If someone wants to use their children as crash test dummies to test out his hypothesis, then ok. But I'm keeping my kids rearfacing as much as possible, then keeping them harnessed until they are mature enough to sit in a seatbelt.

[an_aurora]

Yep, and he also failed to take into account that in the study, children who were ejected from the vehicle were dismissed from the statistics.

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by Equuskia

This horse has already been beaten to death many times here. His methods are faulty, and there is no way that a 2 year old child can fit properly in a seatbelt that is built for an over 5 ft, 150 pound adult. Until a child can pass the 5 step test, they are not ready to sit in just a seatbelt. If someone wants to use their children as crash test dummies to test out his hypothesis, then ok. But I'm keeping my kids rearfacing as much as possible, then keeping them harnessed until they are mature enough to sit in a seatbelt.

Okaaay, well I haven't seen any threads about it but I'm not on this board much. I'm sorry to be so behind the times, but I just saw the TED lecture a few weeks ago. Do you want to clarify the way in which you think his methods are faulty, or post a link to a thread that clarifies? I'm not trying to be a PITA. I really am interested. I thought the lecture was pretty convincing.

Originally Posted by an_aurora

Yep, and he also failed to take into account that in the study, children who were ejected from the vehicle were dismissed from the statistics.

What study do you mean? Can you clarify or link to a thread that clarifies?

[oceanbaby]

I am pretty uptight about carseat safety, but when we went to NYC we did not use carseats in cabs - we just couldn't figure out a way to do it without lugging a huge carseat around all the time (ds1 was 3yo at the time). If they were literally going to be in the car for 5 minutes the entire trip, I could see not bringing a carseat.

ETA: The droopy straps do drive me crazy though. I mean, if you're using a carseat at least use it as well as you can. I drove for a preschool field trip one time, and after I put this one girl's carseat into my car, I put her into it and put her straps on. The buckle was hanging down to her knees, I mean it was totally pointless. I tightened it up and the girl said that her mom says she doesn't have to wear it tight. I just told her that in my car I feel more comfortable having it tight, and she was fine, but oh my god.

[minkajane]

I was a waitress for a year and I saw a lot of people bring in babies in carseats with loose/twisted straps, chest buckles pushed down to the bottom, etc. It made me want to scream. A couple of times, I even said something and offered to help them fix them. When I've said something, the people have almost always been completely shocked that there was a problem with the carseat and how tight the straps actually had to be. They think if it's tight enough to keep the kid from getting out of the carseat, it's plenty tight. The vast majority of people do not read the instructions that come with the carseat, they just toss the baby in however they think looks right. There's also the conscious or subconscious idea that they grew up without a carseat, so it can't be that big of a deal.

I see people in my neighborhood all the time with little kids not even buckled in, much less in proper boosters or carseats. I've had to call 911 more than once for 2 and 3 year olds bouncing around without even seatbelts on. I can't think of any kids I know that were even in a booster at DS's age (4.5) and he's still in a 5-point harness. XH got him a booster when they were out of state and he puked all over his carseat and even though he's technically big enough for it (barely), it still made me nervous because the 5-point harness is so much safer. I'm glad the new carseat law comes into effect in our state in October. Legally, DS needs nothing but a seatbelt at this age. In October, boosters or carseats will be mandated beyond the age of 3 (I forget what they're changing it to, but it's to the age of 3 now).

[an_aurora]

Originally Posted by no5no5

What study do you mean? Can you clarify or link to a thread that clarifies?

Steven Levitt based his data on FARS data (fatal accident reports, released by NHTSA). He looked through the statistics and decided car seats aren't necessary. What he failed to take into consideration if that, in the FARS data, NHTSA does not include children who were ejected from their seat belts in the statistics showing how many kids were killed while wearing just seatbelts. Thus, the data is skewed since it looks like just as many kids in car seats died as kids in seatbelts, whereas all those kids who were in seatbelts and were ejected weren't included.

[_betsy_]

SIL (a teacher, natch) has her 5-year-old in the front seat. She says it's OK because her daughter is bigger than the average 5 year old.

It's illegal before age 12 here.

[frontierpsych]

I'd say without a doubt it is "it couldn't happen to ME" syndrome. Seems to be the case with a lot of folks who are lax about car seats. I couldn't happen to THEM... until it does.

[vbactivist]

Originally Posted by Love_My_Bubba

And these are my best friends I'm talking about. My neighbors and good friends have a dd the same age as my DS. To say that they are lax on carseat safety is an understatement but the stunt they pulled today just takes the cake.

I drove them to the airport today for a trip to Disney. I asked if they needed my carseat bag (we use CARES on the plane & check the seat.) They said they weren't taking a car seat so I assumed they were staying on property and just doing the tram thing the whole time. Nope, they're renting a car. I haven't been to Disney so I have no idea about driving times but I have to imagine that it's not a quick trip around the corner from the airport to the hotel.

Wow, just wow. The final and definitive proof that I am right to NEVER let them drive my DS unless I install the car seat and buckle him in. How can any person who cares even remotely for a child think this is ok??????

I;'m sure they think their kids are safe. I doubt they are deliberately putting their children at risk - and who knows? Maybe they are not. But I'm sure they love thier children and are concerned for their safety as much as you are

[Eclipsepearl]

Originally Posted by Love_My_Bubba

And these are my best friends I'm talking about. My neighbors and good friends have a dd the same age as my DS. To say that they are lax on carseat safety is an understatement but the stunt they pulled today just takes the cake.

I drove them to the airport today for a trip to Disney. I asked if they needed my carseat bag (we use CARES on the plane & check the seat.)

I was just going to point out, I hope when you "check" the car seat, you are taking the car seat to the gate and checking it there.

NEVER check a car seat in as luggage. It could too easily be lost and/or broken in the hold. You will hear parents say "I checked my seat and it was fine..." but the truth is that you don't know what kind of damage it could have sustained.

The only way you'd find out is if you are in an accident and your seat doesn't protect you child as it should. I hope that never happens but remember that car seats are only designed to withstand ONE accident. I worked for the airlines for 13 years and I've seen how they treat baggage!

What would you do if you arrived at your destination and found out that your car seat had been sent to another city? Then you might have to leave the airport without any protection for your child.

While a CARES harness is not as safe as a seat, it's better than the adult seatbelt alone. Also, gate-checking is not guarenteed but it's better than checking a car seat in as luggage. Then again, you have to ask, if you bring the car seat to the door of the aircraft, you might as well use it on board!

Something to think about next time you travel...
http://flyingwithchildren1.blogspot.com

[Equuskia]

I think it was last year, there was a woman that lost her infant and her niece I believe in a car accident. She was on her way to the airport. Her infant was in a carseat, a Scenera....with the plastic travel bag still on! What do you think happened? She swears her child was strapped in properly, even though the cop said that there was no way if the plastic bag was still on the seat!

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by an_aurora

Steven Levitt based his data on FARS data (fatal accident reports, released by NHTSA). He looked through the statistics and decided car seats aren't necessary. What he failed to take into consideration if that, in the FARS data, NHTSA does not include children who were ejected from their seat belts in the statistics showing how many kids were killed while wearing just seatbelts. Thus, the data is skewed since it looks like just as many kids in car seats died as kids in seatbelts, whereas all those kids who were in seatbelts and were ejected weren't included.

Hm. I imagine there were a lot of child fatalities that were not included, such as children ejected from the car while still in their car seats or ejected from their car seats. Probably a lot of children were not wearing seat belts at all, but the driver lied and said they had been.

I was actually far more convinced by the independent testing he had done than by the statistics related to car seats. Statistics are always tricky because something has to be included and excluded, and you have to trust the researcher to do it in as fair and unbiased a way as possible. Crash tests, on the other hand...well, I don't see how they could lie.

Regardless, the bottom line for me is that if the government wants to force us to buy and use a product, there should be solid evidence that it helps. That it saves lives. It's just shocking to me that people would condemn others and assume that they do not care about their children's safety when there is no evidence showing that car seats improve outcomes in children 2 & up. The burden of proof should be on the car seat manufacturers.

[TheGirls]

Originally Posted by no5no5

Hm. I imagine there were a lot of child fatalities that were not included, such as children ejected from the car while still in their car seats or ejected from their car seats. Probably a lot of children were not wearing seat belts at all, but the driver lied and said they had been.

I was actually far more convinced by the independent testing he had done than by the statistics related to car seats. Statistics are always tricky because something has to be included and excluded, and you have to trust the researcher to do it in as fair and unbiased a way as possible. Crash tests, on the other hand...well, I don't see how they could lie.

Regardless, the bottom line for me is that if the government wants to force us to buy and use a product, there should be solid evidence that it helps. That it saves lives. It's just shocking to me that people would condemn others and assume that they do not care about their children's safety when there is no evidence showing that car seats improve outcomes in children 2 & up. The burden of proof should be on the car seat manufacturers.

The problem is we don't know anything about the independent testing that he did - and he also did this to sell a book, which falls rather short of unbiased. Here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2kO8AxKbrM is a video of a crash test showing a boostered child vs a harnessed child. And that dummy actually fits appropriately in the booster and is sitting still (most 3 year olds do neither).

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by TheGirls

The problem is we don't know anything about the independent testing that he did - and he also did this to sell a book, which falls rather short of unbiased. Here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2kO8AxKbrM is a video of a crash test showing a boostered child vs a harnessed child. And that dummy actually fits appropriately in the booster and is sitting still (most 3 year olds do neither).

What we know is that he has taken steps to prove his point and attempted to disseminate his information to the public. Given that it is the only information out there, because car seat companies have failed to do testing or even make an argument based on facts, I am not willing to just disregard it because he is publishing a book.

I mean, what do we know about the testing in your video? There is a lot less information there than in the lecture I linked to. In fact, the only visible difference between the booster & the car seat (as far as I can see) is that the booster seems to flip the dummy sideways. I'm not at all sure that you can extrapolate that to a regular seat belt and say that because a booster seat looks less safe in a video we know nothing about regular seat belts must also be less safe.