UPDATE: post #154 I'm at a loss, really, I just cant' believe a parent can have so little regard... - Page 3

[KristaDJ]

Originally Posted by no5no5

I recently watched a video on TED indicating that there is evidence that seat belts are just as safe as car seats for kids 2 & up. In fact, given that most car seats are installed incorrectly, and most seat belts are foolproof, seat belts may be safer. I was so convinced that I would totally switch my DD if it weren't for the legal issues.

So b/c 2yo's would (allegedly) be safer in a regular car seat belt than an improperly installed/used carseat you would choose to forgo a carseat altogether if the law would allow you to?

[fruitfulmomma]

My question is, for those who don't think it matters... Why is it such a big deal to you? What investment do you have in not buying a car seat and using it properly? It costs around $50 and only takes a couple of minutes each time you get into the car.

We don't vax because we believe they are risky for *our* children, not because they are inconvenient. Do you believe properly fitting car seats are a danger to your child? Or What?

I can think of far better ways to snub the government and greedy corporations, than this one.

[KSLaura]

We have used many different car rental companies in CA. They are all requried to post signs about car seat laws in CA. They will tack on a carseat rental fee if they see you have children in tow and no carseat. They have asked to see our carseat in the past and would not rent us a car without seeing the carseat. LA airport is quite a distance from Disneyland. I'm sure they will be getting a carseat whether they want it or not!

[medicmama]

Originally Posted by Equuskia

I think it was last year, there was a woman that lost her infant and her niece I believe in a car accident. She was on her way to the airport. Her infant was in a carseat, a Scenera....with the plastic travel bag still on! What do you think happened? She swears her child was strapped in properly, even though the cop said that there was no way if the plastic bag was still on the seat!

Really? That blows my mind,still in the bag?

[Love_My_Bubba]

Originally Posted by Eclipsepearl

I was just going to point out, I hope when you "check" the car seat, you are taking the car seat to the gate and checking it there.

NEVER check a car seat in as luggage. It could too easily be lost and/or broken in the hold. You will hear parents say "I checked my seat and it was fine..." but the truth is that you don't know what kind of damage it could have sustained.

The only way you'd find out is if you are in an accident and your seat doesn't protect you child as it should. I hope that never happens but remember that car seats are only designed to withstand ONE accident. I worked for the airlines for 13 years and I've seen how they treat baggage!

What would you do if you arrived at your destination and found out that your car seat had been sent to another city? Then you might have to leave the airport without any protection for your child.

While a CARES harness is not as safe as a seat, it's better than the adult seatbelt alone. Also, gate-checking is not guarenteed but it's better than checking a car seat in as luggage. Then again, you have to ask, if you bring the car seat to the door of the aircraft, you might as well use it on board!

Something to think about next time you travel...
http://flyingwithchildren1.blogspot.com

I usually even try not to check it at the gate. When I fly, more often than not, I know the flight crew and I can work it out that I can securely stow the car seat in its bag in the cabin, sneaky sneaky, huh

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by KristaDJ

So b/c 2yo's would (allegedly) be safer in a regular car seat belt than an improperly installed/used carseat you would choose to forgo a carseat altogether if the law would allow you to?

No, the lecture claims that seat belts are at least as safe as a properly-installed car seat. Given the fact that the evidence shows that very very few people install and use their car seats correctly, I would be pretty naive and arrogant to assume that mine is always installed correctly, despite my best efforts. The problem is compounded by the fact that my husband and I both drive old cars, without LATCH. And I have read & re-read the instruction manual, and made adjustments when I figured out I had done something wrong. I think it is installed correctly at present, but I have been wrong before.

I know that DD rode in an improperly-installed car seat on more than one occasion. I did not know until after the fact--in fact, I did not even know that DD would be riding in a car at all or I would have not allowed it.

Actually, I probably should say that I don't know that he checked the safety of rear-facing car seats against seat belts, and since we all know rear-facing seats are safer than forward-facing seats, I would probably stick with rear-facing until my 3-year-old DD grew too big (as she already has) and then switch to a regular belt.

Originally Posted by fruitfulmomma

My question is, for those who don't think it matters... Why is it such a big deal to you? What investment do you have in not buying a car seat and using it properly? It costs around $50 and only takes a couple of minutes each time you get into the car.

We don't vax because we believe they are risky for *our* children, not because they are inconvenient. Do you believe properly fitting car seats are a danger to your child? Or What?

I can think of far better ways to snub the government and greedy corporations, than this one.

The safety of my daughter is important to me. I was rear-ended twice in very minor accidents and both times I replaced DD's seat, despite everyone telling me it was still fine. The safety of other children is also important. Given the fact that so few car seats are installed correctly, a safe and foolproof alternative would save lives. And lots of money. But most importantly, lives.

But, look: the reason I started posting here is not because I am on a crusade to convince everyone to switch from car seats to seat belts. The reason is because of the attitude of superiority that was appearing in the posts. You choose not to vax, because you think it's safer, and that's fine with me. I wouldn't roll my eyes at you, even though I disagree. I chose to vax, because I think it's safer, and I presume you wouldn't attack me for it. So why are we all attacking someone who chose to forgo a "safety" device given that there is no evidence that it increases safety???

[Equuskia]

Originally Posted by no5no5

So why are we all attacking someone who chose to forgo a "safety" device given that there is no evidence that it increases safety???

Hmm...let's ask the Swedish if there is no evidence that a car seat is safer than a seatbelt.

[vbactivist]

Originally Posted by frontierpsych

I'd say without a doubt it is "it couldn't happen to ME" syndrome. Seems to be the case with a lot of folks who are lax about car seats. I couldn't happen to THEM... until it does.

I don't think it's "it couldn't happen to ME" syndrome. I think, just like for any parenting decision, people weight the risks vs. the benefits. I have taken my babies out of their carseats in the past (trying to calm hysterical crying). I have had my 5 year old in a regular seatbelt at times (carpooling). Of course I KNOw that my children could be injured in an automobile collision. It's just UNLIKELY that they would even BE in a collision. We all have to weigh the risks vs. the benefits for our own situation. There is no such thing as a perfect parent - keeping your kids in a 5 point harness until a certain age does not mean you are smarter or love your kids/care about their safety more than any other parents. It means you made ONE decision differently.

[an_aurora]

Steven Levitt's "independent testing" is a joke. He tested three seats. Three. And he's claiming that test overrules all of NHTSA and the carseat manufacturers' testing. That's ludicris. Plus, he's suggesting putting a two year old in a seatbelt. Sorry, two year olds do not fit in seatbelts. They will be ejected from the seat, or experience submarining or "seatbelt syndrome."

Yes, there is rampant misuse of carseats. Yes, that's a problem. Fact is, most misuse is relatively minor. Several studies have suggested that combined misuse (ie. loose install, belly clip, loose straps) can reduce the safety of a car seat by 50%. Still, that's MUCH safer than having the same child ride in nothing but an ill-fitting seatbelt.

[JessicaS]

Originally Posted by no5no5

But, look: the reason I started posting here is not because I am on a crusade to convince everyone to switch from car seats to seat belts. The reason is because of the attitude of superiority that was appearing in the posts. You choose not to vax, because you think it's safer, and that's fine with me. I wouldn't roll my eyes at you, even though I disagree. I chose to vax, because I think it's safer, and I presume you wouldn't attack me for it. So why are we all attacking someone who chose to forgo a "safety" device given that there is no evidence that it increases safety???

I am sorry but I don't understand the comparason.

Under what circumstances would a child have life threatening side effects from a carseat?

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by vbactivist

I don't think it's "it couldn't happen to ME" syndrome. I think, just like for any parenting decision, people weight the risks vs. the benefits. I have taken my babies out of their carseats in the past (trying to calm hysterical crying). I have had my 5 year old in a regular seatbelt at times (carpooling). Of course I KNOw that my children could be injured in an automobile collision. It's just UNLIKELY that they would even BE in a collision. We all have to weigh the risks vs. the benefits for our own situation. There is no such thing as a perfect parent - keeping your kids in a 5 point harness until a certain age does not mean you are smarter or love your kids/care about their safety more than any other parents. It means you made ONE decision differently.

As much as I feel strongly about carseat safety (am even considering buying a Swedish carseat for ERF)...I have to agree w/ this.

There is no. one. in real life that of know of that follows carseat safety rules like me. (ERF, research carseats, backseat only, follow installation rules, etc). NO. ONE.

But then I go through my list and EVERY. ONE. vaccinates. Some delay a few. One friend is skipping the Hep B b/c I shared Ian's voice w/ her. But every child gets at least a handful of them.

I see it as different risk assessment. They are scared of measles, meningitis, etc. They believe the information on risk given to them by their doctors and the media. They take the recommended steps to lower the risk.

I do the same with carseats.

It's hard, yes, not to feel bad about it. Hundreds of children died last year from not being properly restrained. And yet, am I supposed to ignore my friend who points out that a kid died from Hib last year? Different stokes for different folks.

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by Equuskia

Hmm...let's ask the Swedish if there is no evidence that a car seat is safer than a seatbelt.

Um. Are you referring to the extended-rear-facing seats? I did mean to exclude rear-facing seats from this discussion, because I do think there is good evidence that they are safer than front-facing seats and I'm not sure Levitt did any testing of rear-facing seats.

Originally Posted by an_aurora

Steven Levitt's "independent testing" is a joke. He tested three seats. Three. And he's claiming that test overrules all of NHTSA and the carseat manufacturers' testing. That's ludicris. Plus, he's suggesting putting a two year old in a seatbelt. Sorry, two year olds do not fit in seatbelts. They will be ejected from the seat, or experience submarining or "seatbelt syndrome."

Yes, there is rampant misuse of carseats. Yes, that's a problem. Fact is, most misuse is relatively minor. Several studies have suggested that combined misuse (ie. loose install, belly clip, loose straps) can reduce the safety of a car seat by 50%. Still, that's MUCH safer than having the same child ride in nothing but an ill-fitting seatbelt.

If those three tests are the only three tests that have been done comparing seat belts to car seats for the forward-facing two & up crowd, which is Levitt's contention, then I'm sorry, but that's the only information we have. To me, any amount of testing is more reliable than speculation.

You say that a poorly-installed and used car seat is "MUCH safer" than a seat belt. But do you have any evidence of that? Am I supposed to take your word for it?

Originally Posted by abimommy

I am sorry but I don't understand the comparason.

Under what circumstances would a child have life threatening side effects from a carseat?

Well, I wouldn't have chosen the comparison myself; I was just trying to go with the example someone else brought up. But to clarify wrt vaccinations, both parents who vax and parents who don't are doing it because they have reasons to believe that their choice is safer. I think my choice is better and safer, and I think that because of the research I've done, but I'm not going to try to force it on anyone else. Also, for the majority of kids there will be no significant side effects whether they are vaxed or not.

As far as car seats are concerned, I think there is pretty solid evidence that misuse can be fatal or result in serious injury.

[an_aurora]

Originally Posted by no5no5

If those three tests are the only three tests that have been done comparing seat belts to car seats for the forward-facing two & up crowd, which is Levitt's contention, then I'm sorry, but that's the only information we have. To me, any amount of testing is more reliable than speculation.

Of course it's not the only crash tests. It's just the only one he chose to use. There's even several on youtube.

ETA: here is the graphic I was looking for, showing a 6 year old-sized dummy in a booster, vs in a regular seatbelt. Now this is a SIX year old who actually fits a seatbelt. Imagine a tiny two year old!

[MacKinnon]

Here is the break down of injury data. I'm not going back through to site each reference, but you can, they are there. Data shows that toddlers 1 - 4 are 54% safer in a ff harnessing seat and children ages 4 - 8 59% safer in a booster than in a seat belt alone. Levitt's data is simply not borne out in the crash test studies and data compliled by virtually everyone else, even if you exclue rear facing.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by ilovemyavery

Here is the break down of injury data. I'm not going back through to site each reference, but you can, they are there. Data shows that toddlers 1 - 4 are 54% safer in a ff harnessing seat and children ages 4 - 8 59% safer in a booster than in a seat belt alone. Levitt's data is simply not borne out in the crash test studies and data compliled by virtually everyone else, even if you exclue rear facing.

Playing devil's advocate here but:

"and by 54% for toddlers ages 1 to 4 years.2"

That's only 4% over statistical probability: death/injury vs. no death/no injury.

Or am I reading this wrong?

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by an_aurora

Of course it's not the only crash tests. It's just the only one he chose to use. There's even several on youtube.

ETA: here is the graphic I was looking for, showing a 6 year old-sized dummy in a booster, vs in a regular seatbelt. Now this is a SIX year old who actually fits a seatbelt. Imagine a tiny two year old!

Note that I said "if" they were the only ones. They were the only ones I was aware of. And they are still the only ones I am aware of, since you didn't link to any. I'm not at all interested in seeing a video, since I have no way of telling the difference between a better and worse crash.

As regards your graphic, it clearly states that the child has put the shoulder belt behind his or her back. And that's certainly not what Levitt is advocating.

Originally Posted by ilovemyavery

Here is the break down of injury data. I'm not going back through to site each reference, but you can, they are there. Data shows that toddlers 1 - 4 are 54% safer in a ff harnessing seat and children ages 4 - 8 59% safer in a booster than in a seat belt alone. Levitt's data is simply not borne out in the crash test studies and data compliled by virtually everyone else, even if you exclue rear facing.

Thanks. I actually saw that page--I've been researching since I last posted--but the link to the relevant study isn't good anymore, and I couldn't find the study elsewhere. So I can't argue with its methodology, per se. I will note that Levitt does admit that there is some data showing that car seats are safer, but he says that it is based on after-the-fact calls to parents, and suggests that parents are likely to lie. I can't say that I disagree with him.

I also found a study that said that most booster seats do not actually improve seat belt positioning and that many actually make it worse. Not that I want to get into a discussion about booster seats. DD is still in a car seat and probably will be for some time, so I'm nowhere near up to date on booster seat safety.

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

Playing devil's advocate here but:

"and by 54% for toddlers ages 1 to 4 years.2"

That's only 4% over statistical probability: death/injury vs. no death/no injury.

Or am I reading this wrong?

No, you're reading it wrong. Now I'm the one playing devil's advocate, but 54% better is like saying 54% more (than 100%) safety (54%+100%=154% safety). So, yeah, it's a big difference.

[an_aurora]

Google is very helpful for finding such links. I'll be back with links.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by no5no5

I also found a study that said that most booster seats do not actually improve seat belt positioning and that many actually make it worse. Not that I want to get into a discussion about booster seats. DD is still in a car seat and probably will be for some time, so I'm nowhere near up to date on booster seat safety.



No, you're reading it wrong. Now I'm the one playing devil's advocate, but 54% better is like saying 54% more (than 100%) safety (54%+100%=154% safety). So, yeah, it's a big difference.

Are you talking about backless boosters or 5pt harness boosters?

And thank you for clarifying. lol

[an_aurora]

They are talking about high back boosters. There are only 2 kinds of boosters: high-back and backless. A "harnessed booster" is a different category alltogether, since it doesn't involve positioning the belt.

[an_aurora]

Kids are not cooperating, so here is a quick list:

NHTSA Reports

Presentations

Crash statistics

Research notes