Help me understand this - Page 2

[katiesk]

people evidently find their conception of gender roles to be so spot on that when these conceptions are challenged, they lose all sense of etiquette, and ration and become insulting and offensive.
it is so distressing.

[Alyantavid]

But to think that everyone else will just assume it's a boy in that particular costume is a bit far fetched... don't you think? Even the biggest dirtiest hippy may be confused!!!

What? I don't care if people assume he's a girl. (Although I don't really see how by the clothes he wears.) I care about the comments he hears. And I honestly wanted to understand the big issue with a boy having long hair and painted toenails. I don't understand why they think this will cause any issues at all?

[Landover]

I am just going to go out on a limb here.... if you are so concerned about your son hearing things about him like that, then why don't you stop painting his nails? I am really not trying to obstuse, and I am all for letting a kid choose their own way, but I think I would think twice about doing anything to my son or daughter that would cause comments that would concern me (as you are obviously concerned enough to post here about them). The world is what it is.

This is what always makes me giggle about threads like this... The whole, "Why in the world is someone saying things to a me when all I did was paint my little boy's toenails?!" sentiment. Folks think it is strange because toenail paint is for girls.... hello?! It would give me pause if I saw a little boy in a dress, with a bow in his hair, or painted toenails. Really, you don't have any idea why people would say you might *not* want to paint his toenails? Seriously... you do get it, right?

[benj]

people just like being able to organize things quickly. it's easy to just have two categories, male and female, and disregard everything else as "wrong."
we have societal norms for male and female roles starting from birth and society decides these norms. have you ever read the short story about baby x? we are obsessed with gender. i'm happy that you let your child step out of the traditional gender role. he will most likely grow up to be a well-adjusted, respectful and accepting person.

[Ambystoma]

Originally Posted by Landover

This is what always makes me giggle about threads like this... The whole, "Why in the world is someone saying things to a me when all I did was paint my little boy's toenails?!" sentiment. Folks think it is strange because toenail paint is for girls.... hello?! It would give me pause if I saw a little boy in a dress, with a bow in his hair, or painted toenails. Really, you don't have any idea why people would say you might *not* want to paint his toenails? Seriously... you do get it, right?

Nail polish is not for girls. It is for whoever wants to wear it. I hate it and won't wear it-I knew men in college that loved it. Why are any of those things not for boys/men? Because some random person said so. Skirts: everyone used to wear robes-pants are recent. And kilts, hello-again many men (hubby included) like utili-kilts in summer-and they are very "masculine" if you want to label one or the other.

Furthermore, in the same vein as what MusicianDad mentioned, it's very odd that people would be ok with a 3 year old girl wearing a blue sports outfit with a fishing pole in her hand, but if a 3 year old boy wants to wear nail polish, we have to have a freak out about it. Honestly, what's the fear there about a little boy wearing a tutu? He's 3. It's not going to make him only wear pink tutus as a man...unless he wants to.

I don't think the OP doesn't "get" why people may think it odd-we're in a very sexist society. I think she's simply upset about the mean comments said in front of her son.

Originally Posted by itsrtimedownhere

haha this reminds me of one time we went out for dinner. the server came walked up to out table from behind my husband. she said something like "what can i get you ladies to drink?" he has very long curly hair. she was mortified. it was so funny.

I could have written this exact post. The husband didn't get it-he thought she was joking. The waitress looked like she could have died.

[Just My Opinion]

Originally Posted by Landover

I am just going to go out on a limb here.... if you are so concerned about your son hearing things about him like that, then why don't you stop painting his nails? I am really not trying to obstuse, and I am all for letting a kid choose their own way, but I think I would think twice about doing anything to my son or daughter that would cause comments that would concern me (as you are obviously concerned enough to post here about them). The world is what it is.

This is what always makes me giggle about threads like this... The whole, "Why in the world is someone saying things to a me when all I did was paint my little boy's toenails?!" sentiment. Folks think it is strange because toenail paint is for girls.... hello?! It would give me pause if I saw a little boy in a dress, with a bow in his hair, or painted toenails. Really, you don't have any idea why people would say you might *not* want to paint his toenails? Seriously... you do get it, right?

Gosh and if those darn black people were so concerned with people being mean to them at lunch counters, they should have just stopped going. Don't they know those are for white people!!??


OP -- you know what, you are your son's greatest influence. Ten people making comments don't compare at all to you loving him unconditionally and allowing him to be the person he wants to be and love the things he wants to love. This is what will matter in the end, I firmly believe. If the people he loves and values the most accept and love him unconditionally, then the other comments etc will fall (a far) behind.

People don't want their "truths" (in huge honkin' quotes) challenged. They don't want their perceptions or beliefs so blatantly turned on their ear. Why, if someone even gives them a tiny hint of what it is like outside the box, they reject it -- plain and simple.

One of the most staggering truths I have ever discovered (and this has changed my life) -- is that self-confident, secure, happy people don't care about toenail polish on boys (or similar none-of-their-business-actions). They just don't. They are secure in their own truths (even if they may not do it themselves) to try to squelch a small child's innocent and harmless fun

[Mama Mko]

Originally Posted by Landover

I am just going to go out on a limb here.... if you are so concerned about your son hearing things about him like that, then why don't you stop painting his nails? I am really not trying to obstuse, and I am all for letting a kid choose their own way, but I think I would think twice about doing anything to my son or daughter that would cause comments that would concern me (as you are obviously concerned enough to post here about them). The world is what it is.

I don't want the world to be this way so I'm going to try to change it. By painting my son's nails if he requests it. By letting him have long hair. By letting him dress however he wants to. And by explaining to people that "Nope, he's a boy. He just likes blue nail polish." Maybe that will help change the world just a little bit. Maybe someone will hear that and say "Hmm, that lady painted her boy's nails. Why must nail polish only be for females?" Maybe someone will read this thread and decide it's okay if their children don't fit into the boy or girl box exactly.

This is what always makes me giggle about threads like this... The whole, "Why in the world is someone saying things to a me when all I did was paint my little boy's toenails?!" sentiment. Folks think it is strange because toenail paint is for girls.... hello?! It would give me pause if I saw a little boy in a dress, with a bow in his hair, or painted toenails. Really, you don't have any idea why people would say you might *not* want to paint his toenails? Seriously... you do get it, right?

No, I don't get it. I don't see any reason that nail polish is only for girls. Can you explain that to me?

Originally Posted by Just My Opinion

OP -- you know what, you are your son's greatest influence. Ten people making comments don't compare at all to you loving him unconditionally and allowing him to be the person he wants to be and love the things he wants to love. This is what will matter in the end, I firmly believe. If the people he loves and values the most accept and love him unconditionally, then the other comments etc will fall (a far) behind.

I agree.

[Mama Mko]

Originally Posted by itsrtimedownhere

haha this reminds me of one time we went out for dinner. the server came walked up to out table from behind my husband. she said something like "what can i get you ladies to drink?" he has very long curly hair. she was mortified. it was so funny.

We had this happen on the beach. My husband has long curly hair too. Someone called out "Ladies, do you want your hair braided?" My husband turned around. He's obviously not a lady.

[Alyantavid]

Originally Posted by Landover

I am just going to go out on a limb here.... if you are so concerned about your son hearing things about him like that, then why don't you stop painting his nails? I am really not trying to obstuse, and I am all for letting a kid choose their own way, but I think I would think twice about doing anything to my son or daughter that would cause comments that would concern me (as you are obviously concerned enough to post here about them). The world is what it is.

This is what always makes me giggle about threads like this... The whole, "Why in the world is someone saying things to a me when all I did was paint my little boy's toenails?!" sentiment. Folks think it is strange because toenail paint is for girls.... hello?! It would give me pause if I saw a little boy in a dress, with a bow in his hair, or painted toenails. Really, you don't have any idea why people would say you might *not* want to paint his toenails? Seriously... you do get it, right?

Because my child has a right to have his body/hair/etc as he wants. Just like every other person in the world. You're probably one of those people who is pro-circ, just so people won't make comments right? Why should I stop doing something completely harmless that he loves because it weirds someone else out?

As I've said before, I don't mind the comments. I do not like that my son hears them, but I honestly do not understand what people think is going to happen to him if he has painted toenails. And hello?!? I must have missed the label on the bottle that said "for girls only" I'm a girl and I painted his nails, so I guess I found a way around that.

Seriously, that is probably one of the most judgmental posts I've ever read. You are exactly the type of person that I would hate to have my child come up to.

OP -- you know what, you are your son's greatest influence. Ten people making comments don't compare at all to you loving him unconditionally and allowing him to be the person he wants to be and love the things he wants to love. This is what will matter in the end, I firmly believe. If the people he loves and values the most accept and love him unconditionally, then the other comments etc will fall (a far) behind.

Thank you so much for that. I will remember this the next time I hear some rude person sharing their opinion on his toes.

And with that, I think I'm done here. I obviously got my question answered. Thank all of you who posted, especially all the supportive posts.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by hhrules

I think that when people tell you you will have to stop doing that to him, or that you will soon have to cut his hair, or whatever, you can just respond with "Really?" and a very quizzacle (sp?) expression and then move on.

Uh, huh. DS1 had long hair as a kid. It was down almost to his butt when he decided to cut it, just before he started grade 7. (He loved showing up at school with his new almost-shaved do, and making a big splash...quite a "make an entrance" type, my son is.)

I lost track of the number of people over the years who said stuff like, "when are you going to let him get his hair cut?" and "you shouldn't make him wear his hair like that, just because you like long hair". WTF? He had long hair when he was little, because his dad and I liked it (my ex also had hair past his waist). He had long hair when he was older, because he liked it! He and I had talks about being teased over his hair, and he repeatedly made a deliberate choice to keep it long.

And, you know what? He's now 16, and probably the most impervious to peer pressure of his entire circle of friends. He doesn't really care what other people think of how he dresses or what he likes (he's currently out with his girlfriend, and wearing his usual string of Peek-A-Poohs, hanging off his studded belt, together with a black muscle shirt, and a pink bandana). He just does his own thing.

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by rebeccajo

I don't want the world to be this way so I'm going to try to change it. By painting my son's nails if he requests it. By letting him have long hair. By letting him dress however he wants to. And by explaining to people that "Nope, he's a boy. He just likes blue nail polish." Maybe that will help change the world just a little bit. Maybe someone will hear that and say "Hmm, that lady painted her boy's nails. Why must nail polish only be for females?" Maybe someone will read this thread and decide it's okay if their children don't fit into the boy or girl box exactly.

nak

you just reminded me of my feelings when i was watching the biggest loser (never seen it before). i was hanging out with my little siblings and they started the weigh in....

all the men are shirtless but the women are wearing sports bras. and i asked aloud, "why do the men get to be shirtless but the women have to wear bras?"

they all stuttered and blanked out at me. "because it's different" "because you can't see them" etc etc. then they all seemed to arrive at the conclusion at the same time lol. my 11yo brother got big eyes and said, "that's not fair!"

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Landover

I am just going to go out on a limb here.... if you are so concerned about your son hearing things about him like that, then why don't you stop painting his nails? I am really not trying to obstuse, and I am all for letting a kid choose their own way, but I think I would think twice about doing anything to my son or daughter that would cause comments that would concern me (as you are obviously concerned enough to post here about them). The world is what it is.

Why should she stop? She's concerned about the comments, but her son likes having his toenails painted.

This is what always makes me giggle about threads like this... The whole, "Why in the world is someone saying things to a me when all I did was paint my little boy's toenails?!" sentiment. Folks think it is strange because toenail paint is for girls.... hello?! It would give me pause if I saw a little boy in a dress, with a bow in his hair, or painted toenails. Really, you don't have any idea why people would say you might *not* want to paint his toenails? Seriously... you do get it, right?

I don't get it. So, people think it's strange. Whatever. Why does that mean they have to tell the OP not to do it, or that she might not want to do that. If she had a problem with it, then she wouldn't do it, would she? I can't even imagine telling someone they might not want to dress their little girl in overalls, or they might not want to let their little boy play with a doll or any of the other asinine variants on this. It's strange? So what? He's three. Why should he have to kiss up to stupid gender stereotypes? Why should anybody, but especially a child who is too young to even get what people are talking about?

[*Erin*]

we are just beginning to hear similar stuff. like has been previously mentioned-it really is shocking to me, also, the difference in people's feelings about my boy wearing girl stuff as opposed to my girl wearing boy stuff. from the time dd she was a tot, i dressed her in gender neutral clothing and soft neutral colors, encouraged her to play with all kinds of toys, and was very careful not to stereotype her. (same with ds, too, of course) i remember times when she'd wear her firefighter hat and choose her "boy" patterned clothing and play with trucks all at the same time, and nobody batted an eye, but MY GOODNESS the VENOM and FEAR i get from people when my little 16 month old ds wants to wear a hairbow like his big sister. omg. it's crazy. and the worst part to me is when i find myself having to take a deep breath and remind myself of all my principles when he wants to wear one out. it's hard sometimes but it seems to be such a hot button issue, that i feel like it's important to support my fella, so if anyone gives us looks or comments, i blow it off, with a smile and a light hearted comment.

[VeganMamaRed]

People are just ridiculous sometimes. For Halloween last year my 3 year old wanted to be Minnie Mouse. Partly because he loves her dearly and partly because that is what his sister was being. So guess what? He was Minnie Mouse. We got some strange looks but most people thought it was pretty cute. I'm sure a lot of people talked about us after we left, but what the hell? What's more important, for a little boy to get to choose his Halloween costume or for me to force him to assume gender roles that someone else assigns? Screw that. Minnie Mouse it was.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by Landover

This is what always makes me giggle about threads like this... The whole, "Why in the world is someone saying things to a me when all I did was paint my little boy's toenails?!" sentiment. Folks think it is strange because toenail paint is for girls.... hello?! It would give me pause if I saw a little boy in a dress, with a bow in his hair, or painted toenails. Really, you don't have any idea why people would say you might *not* want to paint his toenails? Seriously... you do get it, right?

Who said nail polish is only for girls? Half the boys I went to high school with wore nail polish. Myself included.

And why does the world have to be so surprised to see a little boy in a dress with a boy in his hair?

I don't think it's that parents who have to stop something because of the comments. I think it's the commentators that have to stop, they are the ones judging people and their worth based on stereotype.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by VeganMamaRed

People are just ridiculous sometimes. For Halloween last year my 3 year old wanted to be Minnie Mouse. Partly because he loves her dearly and partly because that is what his sister was being. So guess what? He was Minnie Mouse. We got some strange looks but most people thought it was pretty cute. I'm sure a lot of people talked about us after we left, but what the hell? What's more important, for a little boy to get to choose his Halloween costume or for me to force him to assume gender roles that someone else assigns? Screw that. Minnie Mouse it was.

I bet it was cute...

And those people who gave you looks/talked about it after wouldn't have even batted an eye if your DD was dressed as Mickey Mouse.

[spicyrock]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Who said nail polish is only for girls? Half the boys I went to high school with wore nail polish.

This is what i was thinking, too. And it wasn't limited to just one group of kids or anything, either... for quite a while my freshman year it was a way of being flirtatious, for a girl to get a boy to let her paint his fingers or, more often, his toes.

but either way, i'm not sure i believe gender is ever a set-in-stone thing, and it is certainly very fluid in children... my little brother used to ask me to dress him up, and i would- complete with bows in his hair and makeup. he had the curliest hair, and was so cute! my mom's ex-boyfriend made nasty comments about it, and how i was "turning him into a homo." i can't believe my mom dated that creep... some people are just full of ignorance and bigotry. and other people think there's no good reason to change the status quo... but i say, keep on painting those toenails, mama

[Logan's mommy]

Dh doesn't want ds2 to have long hair (for why that's funny, see my siggy ) because he doesn't want him to be mistaken for a girl, but ds2's hair is so beautiful that I don't want to cut it until he can tell me he wants it cut.

Lots of guys I went to high school with wore nail polish, it wasn't that big of a deal to me. I also let one of my boyfriends borrow my pair of pink patent leather pants The school made him change, though .

I'm all about letting my kids be who they are. If either one of my sons wants to have his nails painted, fine by me. Nail polish is much safer than drugs. My mom and dad allowed me to be my own person and that often included pink hair.

[TiredX2]

It is wierd how many of these stories are so spot on for us.

Originally Posted by mama_mojo

Funny anecdote- DD2 thought boys had brown eyes and girls had blue when she was three, because that is what happens to be true in our nearest circle of friends. It just further points up our own absurdity regarding gender markers.

DS thought the opposite (boys have blue, girls have brown) but same. It's a little disturbing how much they do catch, huh?

Originally Posted by riverscout

Several of my 3.5 year old daughters friends often have their toe nails, fingernails, or both painted...of their own choosing I might add. One of her almost 3 year old friends has frequently been caught in her mom's bathroom doing it herself :. I don't use polish myself, but I imagine if I did, my daughter would be very interested in trying it too.

We painted DS' nails way more often than DD's for that very reason. One time of him sneaking into my (carpeted) bathroom and painting his own nails (and parts of the carpet) before we picked up how often we did nail polish.

Originally Posted by rebeccajo

My son is almost 4 (tomorrow!!) and he has long hair. I often paint his toenails. I get a lot of people calling him a girl and asking me why he has long hair or commenting on the fact that he has painted toenails. I usually say "Daddy has long hair and we like it. " and try to ignore them. It's really obnoxious though.

It was hillarious when DS started really understanding gender. DP has long hair (now it is dreaded), often wears kilts and used to paint his toenails all the time (he has a few "metalic" shades that are very manly, in his opinion). As part of his gender identification, DS (already had long hair) loved getting his nails painted and we actually ended up buying him two kilts (shhhh, don't tell him they were skirts from the girls section) that he loved wearing to preschool.

Originally Posted by itsrtimedownhere

haha this reminds me of one time we went out for dinner. the server came walked up to out table from behind my husband. she said something like "what can i get you ladies to drink?" he has very long curly hair. she was mortified. it was so funny.

The four of us (DP, me, DD & DS) were eating at Olive Garden one time and this happened. It was the manager and he came up behind DP who then turned around (beard & all) and he (the manager) fell all over himself appologizing. He came back over and over and ended up comping DP's dinner. We just didn't have the heart to mention that DS was also not a girl--- he just played along so the guy didn't feel any worse though he did wonder why he wasn't getting a free meal

Originally Posted by Landover

I am just going to go out on a limb here.... if you are so concerned about your son hearing things about him like that, then why don't you stop painting his nails? I am really not trying to obstuse, and I am all for letting a kid choose their own way, but I think I would think twice about doing anything to my son or daughter that would cause comments that would concern me (as you are obviously concerned enough to post here about them). The world is what it is.

That makes me really sad.

Originally Posted by Landover

This is what always makes me giggle about threads like this... The whole, "Why in the world is someone saying things to a me when all I did was paint my little boy's toenails?!" sentiment. Folks think it is strange because toenail paint is for girls.... hello?! It would give me pause if I saw a little boy in a dress, with a bow in his hair, or painted toenails. Really, you don't have any idea why people would say you might *not* want to paint his toenails? Seriously... you do get it, right?

While I understand that people assume certain things (after all, stereotypes are adaptive behaviour), it's when they can't get past certain assumptions that I get annoyed. I wasn't annoyed in this case, I just thought it was funny but when one of DD's preschool friends saw (long haired) DS getting his diaper changed he exclaimed, "Look, this girl has a penis." For him, hair was a BETTER gender predictor than anatomy. DD has gotten in arguements with adults who have repetedly insisted that DS is her *sister.* If DS is wearing blue shoes, brown shorts, a baseball shirt, riding a skateboard with his helmet on and people calling him his *male* name, many people will still look past all of that and call him a girl because of his hair. If everyone would just take one minute to look at the whole picture, it would be appreciated (at DS' preschool there was an "Emily" with buzzed hair who wore overalls all the time--- after hearing the name and looking at accessories, etc... I went ahead and assumed *girl* even with some contrary "clues.")

[QUOTE=rebeccajo;13890769]I don't want the world to be this way so I'm going to try to change it. By painting my son's nails if he requests it. By letting him have long hair. By letting him dress however he wants to. And by explaining to people that "Nope, he's a boy. He just likes blue nail polish." Maybe that will help change the world just a little bit. Maybe someone will hear that and say "Hmm, that lady painted her boy's nails. Why must nail polish only be for females?" Maybe someone will read this thread and decide it's okay if their children don't fit into the boy or girl box exactly.

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Uh, huh. DS1 had long hair as a kid. It was down almost to his butt when he decided to cut it, just before he started grade 7. (He loved showing up at school with his new almost-shaved do, and making a big splash...quite a "make an entrance" type, my son is.)

DS did that on Thursday. Came home on Wednesday, we cut his hair in a 3/4" buzz and he wore a baseball hat to class on Thursday so his teacher could ask him to take it off and do a double take--- she definately did. The class had a *fit.* We think his music teacher *actually* didn't know who he was since she didn't call him by name once (which she does constantly, it's never "Yes?" but "Yes, name?"

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

you just reminded me of my feelings when i was watching the biggest loser (never seen it before). i was hanging out with my little siblings and they started the weigh in....

all the men are shirtless but the women are wearing sports bras. and i asked aloud, "why do the men get to be shirtless but the women have to wear bras?"

This reminds me of the last summer olympics. There was so much furror over how the women volleyball players *had* to wear tiny short/bikinis while the men wore baggy tank tops & shorts. How sexist for the women! Except that it was the MEN volleyball players who were jealous--- the sand was getting stuck in their shorts but couldn't get inside of the women's smaller outfits. I guess just letting all volleyball players choose from the same set of clothes would be just too crazy.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by TiredX2

DS did that on Thursday. Came home on Wednesday, we cut his hair in a 3/4" buzz and he wore a baseball hat to class on Thursday so his teacher could ask him to take it off and do a double take--- she definately did. The class had a *fit.*

Yeah - that was ds1's class, too. He walked in and took off his hat, and people were just looking at him like, "who's the new kid?", and then someone went "K???". And, everyone started going, "OMG - it is K", "What did you do to your hair?", "Where's the ponytail?", "Ahh - you look so different". They were almost hysterical. DS1 got a big kick out of it.

And, it's funny, but I'd forgotten until reading some comments upthread. DS1 also wore nail polish for a few years. He didn't wear it all the time, but a lot of the boys were doing it. I think that was around grade 5 and 6. He also wore Liquid Paper as nail polish a few times. Oh, well. For about 3 years, he wore lots of bracelets, too...those coloured rubber or plastic ones, with the words on them, that get handed out for various awareness events. He had a collection of about 12-15 that he wore all the time.

And, heck - I was a teenager in the 80s, and belonged to the heavy metal community. I have no illusions about make-up, hairspray (yech), nail polish or jewelry being a "girl thing". My sister dated one guy who wore more make-up than any girl I knew, and I knew quite a few who wore at least some.