What if new moms had to sign a waiver? - Page 11

[thismama]

ITA that parental consent for what medical people do to your kid is a totally different ballgame than medical consent for parental choices. I would support a waiver/consent form for them to feed formula, but not formula by prescription.

[1littlebit]

Originally Posted by thismama

ITA that parental consent for what medical people do to your kid is a totally different ballgame than medical consent for parental choices. I would support a waiver/consent form for them to feed formula, but not formula by prescription.

: if you don't sign they *theoretically* can't feed your kid formula. i don't know why they always seem to be so into the idea though. if a newborn is crying or w/e take him to his mother if she is available. if not take him to his father if available.. and if not just hold him and move on.. he doesn't need to eat right away. and the effort should be made to return baby to his/her parents instead of feeding baby a bottle.

[kawa kamuri]

Originally Posted by hparsh

What if a doctor didn't want to prescribe it and told the mom to go home and just try harder?

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

i don't actually support formula by prescription... but if most doctors did that i don't think we would even need to have a lactivism forum.

i was a nineteen year old first time mom with no support told to "try harder" by my sons pediatrician. it was of absolutely no help. try harder? oh, ok.

[1littlebit]

Originally Posted by kawa kamuri

i was a nineteen year old first time mom with no support told to "try harder" by my sons pediatrician. it was of absolutely no help. try harder? oh, ok.

did you ask him what you should be doing that would be trying harder? b/c i assume that if a woman is asking for help she is making a lot more than a half a$$ed attempt. yk?

[kawa kamuri]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

did you ask him what you should be doing that would be trying harder? b/c i assume that if a woman is asking for help she is making a lot more than a half a$$ed attempt. yk?

i honestly don't remember, that little baby i had so much trouble with will be fifteen this year.

the pediatrician was dismissive, did not offer help beyond that bit of wisdom. i don't personally find that "if most doctors did that i don't think we would even need to have a lactivism forum" to be true in my case. condescending maybe!

[1littlebit]

what i meant was that if the first response of doctors was in favor of breast feeding instead of switching to formula more women would start BFing and more would do it longer .. not if they all just said keep trying and expect you to figure it out.

thats not anymore helpful then switch to formula really.. like maybe the first few weeks or so it might get better w/ practice... or if its a problem that will get better over time like being overly tired or constant nursing... but other than that you need someone w/ experience to help get things on track. assuming doctors were actually in favor of breast feeding they would know someone who could help you... or if they were in favor of nursing more women would BF so you would have many friends and such with experience to offer assistance.

sometimes its nice to dream.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by hparsh

I have a question for those who support formula through prescription only. How would that work? Would a mom have to be diagnosed with a certain condition before she gets it or would they have to diagnose the baby with something (i.e. starvation, failure to thrive) before they would receive the prescription? What if a doctor didn't want to prescribe it and told the mom to go home and just try harder?

Well, I don't know that I support it, and I don't know how they do it in places where it is by prescription. My thought, though, is that perhaps it would be prescribed by a lactation consultant. After all, that is who you would go to for BF problems. Or perhaps the nurse that visits the home to help with BF and so on after the birth. If it were going to be a long-term thing, it would be an open prescription. Ideally, they could also prescribe banked milk if available.

[thismama]

What if you just don't want to nurse though? What if you have to go back to work and pumping is not feasible? What if you find nursing traumatic, brings up past memories, body image issues, etc etc what have you? You have to explain all that to a doc or LC and see if they 'approve' of it as reason not to feed your baby? Or it's just off the radar, those reasons dont count? What would that kind of situation do to your bonding with your baby? To baby's access to food, whether breastmilk or formula? To ensure people aren't mixing stuff up at home out of evaporated milk and corn syrup like in the old days?

I think formula by prescription is a really really bad idea.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by thismama

What if you just don't want to nurse though? What if you have to go back to work and pumping is not feasible? What if you find nursing traumatic, brings up past memories, body image issues, etc etc what have you? You have to explain all that to a doc or LC and see if they 'approve' of it as reason not to feed your baby? Or it's just off the radar, those reasons dont count? What would that kind of situation do to your bonding with your baby? To baby's access to food, whether breastmilk or formula? To ensure people aren't mixing stuff up at home out of evaporated milk and corn syrup like in the old days?

I think formula by prescription is a really really bad idea.

ITA

I have a huge problem with forcing women who don't want to breastfeed to nurse. I'm a big believer in "her body, her choice" even when it comes to breastfeeding. I want women to [I]want[I] to nurse, I don't want them to feel like they have to do something with their body that they aren't comfortable with. I wish milk banks were more of an option for people who don't want to nurse for whatever reason.

[hparsh]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

Well, I don't know that I support it, and I don't know how they do it in places where it is by prescription. My thought, though, is that perhaps it would be prescribed by a lactation consultant. After all, that is who you would go to for BF problems. Or perhaps the nurse that visits the home to help with BF and so on after the birth. If it were going to be a long-term thing, it would be an open prescription. Ideally, they could also prescribe banked milk if available.

I don't think lactation consultants or nurses are qualified to prescribe meds.

If someone had a prescription for formula, how much of a supply would they get per prescription?

[1littlebit]

I would hope it would be one with unlimited refills!!

[thismama]

There are so many scary docs too. A mama on my local board just posted that a doc is insisting her 14 lb 3 mos old is over the 100th percentile so she should feed him only every 4 hours, for ten minutes, and what he gets is what he gets. Then fill him up on water. She looked up the stats and he is 50th percentile, for one thing, and my baby was over the hundredth and I sure wasn't about to starve her!!!! I sure don't want them to have more power over how babies are fed.

[pumpkinhead]

Originally Posted by tinyactsofcharity

*bolding mine*

I have thus far decided to stay out of this conversation as I haven't really formulated an opinion on the original question. When I read this post though I felt I had to respond, especially to the part I've bolded. Most experts that I've heard on the subject state that the reason this happens in zoos and other captivity situations is because the natural order has been interrupted and the animal mothers haven't seen other mothers caring for their offspring and haven't been allowed to develop mothering instincts due to human interventions. This is discussed in at least a few of the shows you are referring to because I've saw some of them awhile ago.

That was exactly my point . We have lost a generation of breastfeeding experience. Many of us do not have mothers who breastfed us. We don't know what it normal and what isn't because they don't. We have very little experience to draw on, hence the lack of support.

[shanti1]

Originally Posted by TheLoud

Um, which one of us, about what? Pumpkinhead seemed to think that maternity ward nurses would ask a mother who had lost both breasts to cancer if she wanted to breastfeed. I guess clueless nurses might, but I'm not one to engage in such gallows humor.

Some hospitals require a woman to sign a waiver before they'll let her try a VBAC. If one of their patients is choosing to engage in behavior known to be risky, why shouldn't they make her sign a waiver first?

Actually, this happened REPEATEDLY to my dear friend (who underwent a double masectomy at 30 years old. She was hospitalized at 20 wks when she was carrying her quads until they delivered (at 27 wks). Each and every time a new nurse came to work with her they'd ask if she'd plan to breast feed and when she said she couldn't or simply "no" she'd get a long lecture about the benefits of bfing (of which I can ASSURE you she knows). How her babies were already disadvantaged and she was doing them great harm in not bfing. They brought her to tears over and over again. She even had them put in big bold letters on her chart that she was a breast cancer survivor and still the dim wits couldn't stop harrassing her.

[1littlebit]

my hospital LCs did that too... but i am fairly sure they would have put it on their little sheet and left her alone after she said she couldn't. I cannot believe they kept asking her. what part of i CANT did they not comprehend? that poor mama. :

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

So, how DO we decide when something should require, say, a perscription? Is it about the danger? Individual freedoms? What will give the best results for the most people or for society?

I know I've been told if Tylenol came on the market today, it would be a prescription medication.

I'm working through a complicated thought pattern with a fuzzy head, so I apologize in advance if this is totally incomprehensible.

I feel that we shouldn't move towards more prescription medications, but away from that. The root of having things be prescription-based is/was in knowledge, imo. Doctors studied, and learned about what drugs and medications were appropriate for what conditions. They learned, and so did/do pharmacists, about side effects, dangers of combining drugs, etc. So, in theory, they're more qualified to determine what medication is required in any given circumstance, and to issue prescriptions accordingly. Prescriptions are about ensuring that the most appropriate, safest drug is administered in any given circumstance. That's the idea, anyway.

In practice? I go into a clinic, because I'm really sick. Doctor gives me a 5 minutes checkup (including the discussion of my symptoms) and says, "there's a bug going around - here's your prescription for your antibiotic". He doesn't know for a fact that I have the bug that's going around - just that my symptoms are similar. He often doesn't know if it's viral or bacterial. He doesn't know bacteria is causing it, if there is one (no cultures done). He just hands me a prescription sheet. Sure - lots of doctors say that their patients insist on antibiotics, but I've never done that - not ever. I don't want them. I've been strongly pressured to take them a few times, though (and even been given them by IV when I refused). Besides...if doctors are going to write prescriptions for antibiotics, just because the patient wants them...why bother having a prescription system at all? What purpose does it serve? "I want them, so I get them" - might as well be an OTC drug (and, no - I'm no advocating OTC antibiotics). The people issuing the prescriptions aren't living up to the responsibility that comes with that power, anyway.

When it comes specifically to formula, the only real "diagnosis" that could exist for prescribing formula is "baby has no access to breastmilk". As I'm not at all interested in having a doctor tell me how to parent, the reasons for the lack of access are none of his/her business. For a variety of reasons, I toughed it out through some of the most painful weeks of my life (the most painful, until I lost Aaron) to breastfeed ds1. I was capable of it, but it was agony...the pain in my nipples, and the pain of having to be the one to feed him, despite desperately needing rest after the c-section and lack of food in the hospital, were horrible. It was worth it to me to do it...but neither I, nor a doctor (who may only see the woman once a year - or less, if we're talking a clinic or some such) has the right to decide that another woman has to endure that - and maybe she's not producing enough milk to feed triplets, like I was. Maybe she's having supply issues, as well. Maybe she's more sensitive to nipple pain, and what was excruciating for me is completely unbearable for her. It's not up to a doctor, whose training is in the field of medicine, not infant nutrition, not parenting, and not the psychology of breastfeeding, to decide whether her reasons for not breastfeeding are "good enough" to deserve a prescription.

As for the idea that came up later in the thread of having LCs dispense the prescriptions? Over my dead body. After my experiences when ds2 was born, an LC will never touch me again. I see no reason why they should be put into the same kind of demi-god position that the medical profession has taken upon itself. The simple fact that somebody thinks they're qualified to make decisions for other people, doesn't mean that person actually is qualified to do so.

So...no - not a big fan of the idea of formula by prescription.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by hparsh

I don't think lactation consultants or nurses are qualified to prescribe meds.

If someone had a prescription for formula, how much of a supply would they get per prescription?

Which isn't to say they couldn't be.

Some nurses actually can prescribe - those that work in isolated places, and nurse practitioners can as well. They can't always prescribe anything, there are usually some restrictions. I wouldn't expect, for example, that LCs would be allowed to prescribe opiates - perhaps in that scenario only formula.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I'm working through a complicated thought pattern with a fuzzy head, so I apologize in advance if this is totally incomprehensible.

I feel that we shouldn't move towards more prescription medications, but away from that. The root of having things be prescription-based is/was in knowledge, imo. Doctors studied, and learned about what drugs and medications were appropriate for what conditions. They learned, and so did/do pharmacists, about side effects, dangers of combining drugs, etc. So, in theory, they're more qualified to determine what medication is required in any given circumstance, and to issue prescriptions accordingly. Prescriptions are about ensuring that the most appropriate, safest drug is administered in any given circumstance. That's the idea, anyway.

In practice? I go into a clinic, because I'm really sick. Doctor gives me a 5 minutes checkup (including the discussion of my symptoms) and says, "there's a bug going around - here's your prescription for your antibiotic". He doesn't know for a fact that I have the bug that's going around - just that my symptoms are similar. He often doesn't know if it's viral or bacterial. He doesn't know bacteria is causing it, if there is one (no cultures done). He just hands me a prescription sheet. Sure - lots of doctors say that their patients insist on antibiotics, but I've never done that - not ever. I don't want them. I've been strongly pressured to take them a few times, though (and even been given them by IV when I refused). Besides...if doctors are going to write prescriptions for antibiotics, just because the patient wants them...why bother having a prescription system at all? What purpose does it serve? "I want them, so I get them" - might as well be an OTC drug (and, no - I'm no advocating OTC antibiotics). The people issuing the prescriptions aren't living up to the responsibility that comes with that power, anyway.

W

OT, but that's really only part of the reason doctors prescribe, though - that is, they are the ones making the diagnosis. And colds and flu aren't really the best examples of things you give drugs for. A lot of medical problems are more complicated than that.

In many cases, patients need to be monitored while on meds, to see if they are working, and to see if there are any untoward side effects. In the case of antibiotics and some other drugs, there is the problem of overuse, which it seems many doctors are not serious enough about. (Although in places where TB and malaria, for example, are common, they suddenly become much more serious about it.) There is the problem of counseling the patient on what to expect and how to properly take the medication, which is actually a really big part of what many doctors spend time doing - patients get some odd ideas. And then there are all the drugs that are also controlled substances, or have addictive properties. And then there is the problem of drug interactions, how long they stay in the body, appropriate dosages... all of which means being able to work out chemistry problems.

It would be nice to think that patients could learn about the thousands of drugs available, all their implications and side effects, and how to take them. But the number of patients Ive seen do bizzare things suggests to me that it might not be that simple. (The girl who took a BCP every night she went out to have sex comes to mind, after it was carefully explained to her...)

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

In many cases, patients need to be monitored while on meds, to see if they are working, and to see if there are any untoward side effects.

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean they're doing it. I've lost track of how many people I know who has experienced side effects while on medication and been told that "that isn't a side effect of this medication". What they usually get is a new medication, to cope with the side effect of the first medication, without ever being told that it might be the first medication causing the new problem.

There is the problem of counseling the patient on what to expect and how to properly take the medication, which is actually a really big part of what many doctors spend time doing - patients get some odd ideas.

Seriously? Most people I know just get told to read the directions on the bottle and follow them carefully. I really can't imagine how much education it takes to "counsel" someone to do that.

And then there are all the drugs that are also controlled substances, or have addictive properties. And then there is the problem of drug interactions, how long they stay in the body, appropriate dosages... all of which means being able to work out chemistry problems.

Yup...and lots of people get prescriptions without being advised of any of these things. Lots more get told by pharmacists, not by the person writing the prescription.

It would be nice to think that patients could learn about the thousands of drugs available, all their implications and side effects, and how to take them.

It would be nice if the people with the power to write prescriptions did that, too. Besides, many prescription medications interact with OTC medications, as well as other prescription medications. So, even with a prescription, and even with "counseling", and even with a pharmacist and a print-out (we always get a sheet from the pharmacy, advising us of drug interactions, potential side effects, etc.)...someone can still take something OTC and make themselves really sick. (I recall an old high school buddy who disregarded the "don't drink alcohol" advisory on something he was taking - I've never seen anybody so ill. He customarily drank a fifth when he was partying, so he didn't really believe that "one little shot" could cause any problems.)

The point is that the whole prescription system is supposedly based on the education/knowledge of the people writing the prescriptions....but those people often don't know enough, and/or aren't being careful enough, anyway.

And, I don't see any way in which any of this would suggest that making formula into a prescription only substance makes sense.

I think formula should be required to be marked as a breast milk substitute, and at least some of its flaws marked on the packaging (eg. "this breast milk substitute does offer the same support of an infant's immune system that real breast milk provides")...and that's that. Let people make up their own minds, instead of having to convince a medpro or LC that they deserve to feed their baby.

But the number of patients Ive seen do bizzare things suggests to me that it might not be that simple. (The girl who took a BCP every night she went out to have sex comes to mind, after it was carefully explained to her...)

So - what's the point? Birth control is prescription. She had it explained. She still didn't use it properly. You can't protect people from their own lack of understanding.

Plus, if someone isn't going to breastfeed, making formula unavailable opens the door to substitutes. Formula isn't as good as breast milk...but corn syrup and evaportated or condensed milk isn't as good as formula, either...

[nudhistbudhist]

Originally Posted by Devaskyla

Well, since breastfeeding is the biological norm for our species, it doesn't lower the risk for anything, it normalizes it. Not breastfeeding therefore does increase the risk.

Plus, if you think being honest about the possible complications of formula feeding is somehow "harassing" a new mother, then signing ANY of the hospital waivers would be harassing. If a mother needs an emergency Csection, she is still asked to sign the anesthesiology waiver. No one is trying to scare her out of it by getting her to sign. It's just getting in writing that you consent to your "informed choice" because the paper you signed has all the risks outlined.

What if a mom who DIDN'T KNOW about those risks because no one ever mentioned it.You think she would then start asking some questions!!!! My gf ff because she thinks its just as good as BM. she thinks its convenient, and if its as good as BM like the TV tell her, then why not make the more convenient choice??? Her child has had the worst eczema since the week of his birth. She tells me that she's switching from formula to cows milk when he turns 9 months. When I mentioned the link between dairy and eczema, she said she would make the switch gradually. I then said it may not make his eczema worse since his formula was probably cow milk based anyways. She didn't know if it was or wasn't. She also didn't know that the formula could be causing his eczema. AND SHE USES A PEDIATRICIAN REGULARLY!!

the amount of misinformation boggles the mind. I haven't taken my baby to see the doc since birth. Obviously I wasn't missing out on anything!