How far do you take it, with your pro-circ DH? Am I over the top? Crazy?

[BroodyWoodsgal]

So...Monday, we find out if this baby of mine is another girl...or a huge storm brewing (boy). I would be so glad for a boy, what an exciting change! Almost scary, because I'm just so used to girls, sisters, etc...so, thinking of a little prince of my own, makes me heart flutter...but lately, I've been really hoping that this baby will also be a girl.....because if we have a boy, the fight of the century will ensue at our home.

DH lets me make 99% of the parenting decisions when it comes to no-vax, how long to breast feed, choosing doctors, healing with rememdies, etc...EVERYTHING, he gives me his opinion, I tell him what I've researched, he says "Wow, I didn't know that, it sounds like you've really really picked this issue apart and your view makes sense" and supports me 100% in doing what it is, that my research has proven to me (and him) to be the best way. In the beginning, he was 100% pro vax....it took a conversation of about 10 minutes, him listening carefully the whole time, for me to change his mind...he's really open and receptive to information and is so completely rational, I love him for it. He really gets it, he's a great father and 100% on board with all of the gentle ways I've learned about over the last few years. Awesome awesome awesome.

Until the talk about circ. Brick wall. I'm so so SO glad, that DD was a girl...because I was not in any way ready to enforce a no-circ policy a year ago. Having a child and just hanging around here more...has brought me from really not thinking that circ is necessary...to 100%, stone cold, absolutely against it for my child and anyone elses who asks me what I think about it. I consider it to be genital mutilation, I think it's wrong and I won't do it to my son, period. DH, REFUSES to budge on this issue. THe information, reasoning and cold hard facts, that he usually hangs on every word, really digests and takes to heart....means nothing to him. He has stated that he absolutely does not care what I say, what I have researched, there is no way that, if he has a son, this child will be left intact. No way. Not up for discussion, not a topic for consideration, doesn't care if I'm this boys mother...won't do it. Won't even talk about it.

I'm at a loss. Over the last couple of weeks, I have asked myself "How important is this to me, how far am I willing to take this" - and I've found that my view has not softened...it has hardened completely. At this point, I'm thinking that I would take my kids and move in with my mother, before I would slice at my sons penis....but then the thought that hits me right after that is: "Are you crazy woman, you would leave your loving home, abandon your wonderful marriage and hinder your childrens relationship with a loving, super involved father over this?" - and start second guessing myself.

I know, that on Monday, there is a 50% chance that it could be a girl....but there is also a 50% chance that it will be a boy....and if it is a boy, I know that as soon as we walk out and get into the car, he is going to say it: "It's not a discussion, don't even bring it up, please, I don't want to talk about it, we're going to circ" - and my stomach just turns.

He's a loving, wonderful man. He's a better father than I ever could have dreamed for, for my kids. He is completely supportive of my natural, gentle choices....but won't budge on this. He is circ'd, his son will be circ'd....this ist he end of the story for him.

WWYD? Am I placing too much value on my sons foreskin? Would you budge? I know I have until November, to divise a better plan than leaving or "duking it out" or whatever else...so, I know that I don't have to do something now....but, I'm asking if my feeling of taking this as far as it needs to go, is crazy. Some of you mamas...who have all intact boys....if your DH had pushed it to a point where he was basically like "there is no way in hell we're not circ'ing" - would you have folded? I think the way he sees this, he supports me 100% in everything, all the natural, gentle choices we've made for our DD....and he should be able to have this one little thing. BUT, I don't see that as fair, because I haven't made any choices with regard to our DDs health, that weren't first run by him...and EVERY time a decision has been made, he's been 100% on board, because the information I've shared with him, has been compelling to the point, that it's changed his view on the subject. So, it's not like I'm making all of these wacky decisions, that he thinks are crazy and is against, but he lets me have my way because he sees how much it means to me, or something like that. MY preferences BECAME his preferences due to the research proving that my preferences fit our lifestyle and values...and his, revealed for what they were (things like vax, spanking, mainstream stuff that he just took as "the way you do it" because everyone else doesn) did not fit our value system at all.

So. I don't know. Sorry I'm so longwinded, it's something I've struggled with all my life...but you get the point of my post: How far do you take it? HOW MUCH should it mean to me? Ladies, he will NOT budge...he won't. I know he won't. He never says no to me...in our marriage, in general, 95% of the time, he either agress with me after a discussion, or lets me have my way becuse he just hates saying no and because I don't ask for a lot. He's a loving man to me, he genuinely loves to see me happy and jsut rarely says no...but when he does, it's because he means it, it's because it's important to him and he just. won't. do. it. I'm so conflicted over this, because he doesn't see the violence in this act, like I do. I mean...we have a zero, zero violence home here. We don't harm any creatures...spiders are lucky, we don't kill them, little bugs we find here and there...we live in harmony with them...our doggies, are our mascots and have gentle, loving lives, we live for them...ALL creatures of this earth, especially our DD, are treated with gentle love and respect...so I really didn't think it would be hard to convince him, on the premise that it is violent and unecessary, that we shouldn't circ. And yet, here I am. What, oh what, to do?

[benj]

no, i don't think you are over the top. you said that you present information to your husband and then he will usually change his mind or be open to your idea...so you didn't do anything different with this subject, he just reacted/will react differently. i don't understand the whole "look like daddy" thing at all. i think a lot of fathers are pyschologically pressured into doing it and feel that they need to create some sort of "bond" with their son. he probably does not want to harm his kids, just wants to do what he thinks is best. if he likes it, then he assumes his kids will like it (however, most circumcised guys have never experienced the alternative.) i sincerely doubt that a boy will ever look down at his penis and think "i hope daddy looks just like me." i was left intact as an infant, and when my sons came along we actually looked into circumcision because we didn't want to leave any options out. however, them looking like me was the last thing on my mind. i really hope your husband has a change of heart. there was a forum that i frequented as a teenager, and still do. a lot of teenage boys feel violated that they were circumcised. their parents never brought up the subject with them and they are too embarrassed to bring up their disappointment with them so their parents will never know. they are very clear, they like being circumcised physically but do not like that it was done without their consent.

edit: yes, ask him why. listen to what he has to say.

[Fellow Traveler]

You are certainly not crazy and you need to do what you must but have you even asked him why it's so important? Perhaps that will be a start and you can work through it from there.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Oh I know his reasons...he was clear on that. "I'm circ'd, son is circ'd, the end" - no amount of information will change this for him. Even tried showing him a video of circ...."You think I don't realize it's painful, I DO. but I went through it and I don't remember it or have a horrible feeling from it and I know my son wouldn't either" - I told him that not only is it completely medically unecessary, but there are important functions of the penis lost, when a boy loses his foreskin "My penis is fine, I like my penis, it does everything it's supposed to do" - I also think he thinks that it would be weird for our son, in the locker room, with girls, etc. and he doesn't want him to have to go through that, feeling "different".

SO, he acknowledges that it is for COMPLETELY cosmetic reasons. This man, who won't kill a spider in his bed, who practices "catch and release" with ticks he finds on the dogs (even though his mother suffers terribly with Lyme)...this man who I have never seen injur any creature...who loves nature and living things and gentle life more than anything....is telling me, that he is going to slice at the genitals of a days old infant, ofr purely cosmetic reasons. I just...I don't have the words to express what a disappointment this is.

He has made his reasons known. He is not vague on this, he is not wavering...it's not a fear thing, where he's just fearful for his son being teased or something like that...he won't budge, because he beleives that he is RIGHT. He believes, that circumcision is *right*. THAT is the trouble here. It's not a case of, he just needs to hear the right information, or, if I can show him, that his penis DOESN'T have all it's features, maybe he'll agree...he really and truly believes that this is the right thing to do. He's solid, 100% in this.

That's where my stomach ache is coming from. I'm filled with dread. THe prospect of having a little boy cub of my own, the idea that I could be the mother of a boy, something so exciting....has a major shadow cast over it.

So...I'm not crazy, to think that I would like, I mean, ACTUALLY take my kids and leave? If it came down to it? I love my life...I love my DH. But I LOOOVE my kids...and can't do it. I can't circ a boy.

[benj]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

Oh I know his reasons...he was clear on that. "I'm circ'd, son is circ'd, the end" - no amount of information will change this for him. Even tried showing him a video of circ...."You think I don't realize it's painful, I DO. but I went through it and I don't remember it or have a horrible feeling from it and I know my son wouldn't either" - I told him that not only is it completely medically unecessary, but there are important functions of the penis lost, when a boy loses his foreskin "My penis is fine, I like my penis, it does everything it's supposed to do" - I also think he thinks that it would be weird for our son, in the locker room, with girls, etc. and he doesn't want him to have to go through that, feeling "different".

the problem with that reasoning is that if your hypothetical son does have a problem with it, you will probably never know. he probably won't tell you, ask, or bring it up. he will basically be silenced because of the embarassment of the subject. most circumcised guys have never experienced the alternative so they have no personal experience as to which is better. the locker room thing is a myth. as far as the "feeling different" thing, i was born in 1986 so yes, i felt a little different then (but never to the point where i wished i had been circumcised), but since infant circumcision is steadily declining it is not such a big deal. i'd say if you literally can't get out of it, explain to your hypothetical son when he gets older why it was done. explain that it was not something you agreed to. but it sounds like this subject or the act of circumcising you hypothetical son would severely damage the relationship between you and your husband. i'd also assume that if you've explained explicitly to your husband how upsetting it is to you and he still won't change, then it goes a little deeper than cosmetic reasoning...that's a front, there is something deeper.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

Oh I know his reasons...he was clear on that. "I'm circ'd, son is circ'd, the end" - no amount of information will change this for him. Even tried showing him a video of circ...."You think I don't realize it's painful, I DO. but I went through it and I don't remember it or have a horrible feeling from it and I know my son wouldn't either" - I told him that not only is it completely medically unecessary, but there are important functions of the penis lost, when a boy loses his foreskin "My penis is fine, I like my penis, it does everything it's supposed to do" - I also think he thinks that it would be weird for our son, in the locker room, with girls, etc. and he doesn't want him to have to go through that, feeling "different".

Ok, so it's the standard song and dance. There are a number of posters here that have gone through what you may about to be going through so you're in good company. I haven't (I am actually a guy myself) but I know we have experience with this. As focused as he appears on this, time will change that. I think more than the other issues this is one that he'll have to slowly come around to either accept or at the very least tolerate. Have you discussed the issue with your Pedi or OB? If they're friendly it maybe useful to discuss it between the three of you.

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

So...I'm not crazy, to think that I would like, I mean, ACTUALLY take my kids and leave? If it came down to it? I love my life...I love my DH. But I LOOOVE my kids...and can't do it. I can't circ a boy.

I don't think you're are 'crazy' to want to protect your son, you're his mother, that's your job but I can't, I won't, tell you that you should do that. There are ways to protect him without going that far. For example, just get him out of the hospital intact. They won't circumcise him without your approval so that's the first step. You should make sure your OB and Pedi know your position and make sure you're the one taking him to those appointments. In the worst case this will make it difficult for your husband to do it behind your back which, from your description, doesn't sound like something he'll ultimately do.

Hang in there hopefully other posters will add good thoughts to this thread.

[calngavinsmom]

Oh Momma s. I'm sorry your dh is being such a PITA. But I don't think this is an issue you can budge on, because if you do, it will be your son who pays for it. If you stand up for him and just say no, what is the worst thing that will happen? You need to sign the consent form, not just your dh. There is no reason for you to leave. Just say no. Everytime your dh says it will happen, tell him it will NOT happen. If he is not willing to make a responsible, informed decision for your son, he should not get to make one at all.

If any REAL reason comes out from your dh, let us know, we can help you argue it. But until then stand firm, say no, it WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Good luck on Monday, I hope for you it is a boy because they are truely wonderful cuddly little creatures(I was in the same boat as you, our sons are the first boys in the family for a generation).

Take care!
Tara

[A&A]

You're a good mama! But take a deep breath right now. Here are a couple of links for YOU to read. Do NOT show your dh:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

I especially like this quote from that link:
"Today, it is often the more passive, compliant mother who will allow her son to be circumcised, acquiescing to the demands of medical professionals, husband, family or other outside sources - probably against her better judgment. The more self-determined, confident mother is more likely to insist that her son remain intact, since she has the strength to withstand the outside pressures of a circumcision oriented society. ***

Therefore, as mothers the time is long overdue for us to stand up and demand - We're not going to take this any more!

We won't have our newborn, parturient days ripped asunder by our infants' screams. We are through allowing our infants to be torn from our arms, strapped down, genitals slaughtered, returned to us intensely traumatized or comatose, our own feelings of violation belittled."


And another link for just YOU to read:

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html



Hopefully, of course, it won't come to you leaving the marriage over this issue. But good for you for being prepared to "go the distance" for your son if necessary.
And read my sig.

[ShadowMoon]

My dp wouldn't budge on the issue either. We could never have a calm, rational discussion over it, he was hung up on purely cosmetic arguments, and it became a real sore spot in our relationship. It still is. We kept our son intact, only because I put my foot down. I knew he would never go behind my back and get it done and I made all the people around me know I wanted him intact. He still resents me for it (we don't talk about it, but I know), but I know in my heart it was the right thing to do.

[Sasharna]

Originally Posted by benj

...you've explained explicitly to your husband how upsetting it is to you and he still won't change, then it goes a little deeper than cosmetic reasoning...that's a front, there is something deeper.

Yes, this. If he thinks circumcision is "right" then there should be no problem in telling you why.

AverysMomma, you come across here as such a gentle person. I don't understand why your husband shuts down and will not discuss this with you.

I guess if my DP had behaved in this way, my response would be something along the lines of, "Love, I can tell there's something about this issue that strikes a chord deep inside you. I want to know what it is and see where you're coming from. I can't accept you building a wall to keep me out on this issue, not just because the issue is important to me, but because you're important to me. Our relationship has always been about being completely open with each other... what's going on?"

And, no, I don't think you're going too far or feeling too much. It's not just about circumcision. It's also about the closeness and understanding you share with your life partner. I know my preferences aren't everybody's, but in my relationship with DP, brickwalling just doesn't happen and if it ever did, it would break the other one's heart.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Thank you so much everyone, for your replies.

I think the deeper issue may lay in the fact that in his teen years, he was really...he felt different. He had horrible acne, that made him really really shy, he suffered a lot with feeling shy, different, wanting to just sort of "disappear" in the crowd. I always thought he was adorable..but he hated the way he looked.

Now, he's this incredibly handsome man...who was just sort of a late bloomer, in growing into his "man shape" and looking more manly...but even now that he does, he wears the emotional scars of his youth. He is very much more a "nature" guy than a "people" guy. We have very few friends and spend all of our time as a pack, deep in the woods, or on a lonely little rocky beach, loving being with each other...we prefer not being around people...but again, when he HAS to be...it's still sort of a "blend in" type of thing for him, hates being noticed, doesn't want small talk with strangers, etc. SO, I KNOW that this feeling of his, about circ, is probably another result of his youth spent trying to "blend in". So. That's that. He would never admit that was a part of it...but I think that it is. I fear that, the amount of work he needs to do, to reconcile some of the emotional suffering he went through as a teen, won't happen for a long time...too late for my hypothetical son, you know?

We don't have a ped or an OB. I was with a midwife last pregnancy, this pregnancy am about 95% UP (unassisted pregnancy) and will also UC (unassisted chidbirth). I have a backup midwife...but she is not a person he would have that conversation with. Our DDs doctor (a General Practitioner, MD, or something) is....a universal blessing...just so crunchy, so supportive. He's a super educated guy and stays ontop of the latest information...he doesn't just swallow what drug reps tell him, or what the concensus in the medical community is...he's completely supportive of our parenting chioces, including our decision not to vax and is always giving me more info on natural parenting choices and resources. He's awesome. Maybe, just maybe, DH would talk to him...but he's never met the man. I don't know how that would go.

Yeah...a part of me feels like "Okay, I will let me husband do this and I will hold my son and hate myself the whole time, but I will support him and will explain to him later on that I didn't support it but had to do it...." but then I just think...man, you know. Ugh. It's just, I don't do ANYTHING with my kid that goes against my gut. If I'm thinking of hating myself, for something that I decide to put my kid through...WHY would I do that thing? I'm a principled person. I have a few, little rules, that I let guide my life. I'm not a crazy person, who lives a regimented, in-between-the-lines type of life...there are just a few guidlines that are REALLY important to me....not harming my kids is one of them.

What a crazy choice to have to make. We're not mainstream people. We're not "go with the crowd" types. We hate the crowd! We don't like doctors, hospitals, etc. We don't like medicine and heal ourselves naturally from home, we don't like law men, tax men, doctors...the whole nine. If it reeks of mainstream, it probably didn't come from our house, you know? It's just stunning to me, that he could be so irrational about this. I think, honestly, that he thinks it's gross. I think he thinks, an ucirc'd penis, is really gross.

It doesn't look gross to me. It looks like a penis, to me.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

Yeah...a part of me feels like "Okay, I will let me husband do this and I will hold my son and hate myself the whole time, but I will support him and will explain to him later on that I didn't support it but had to do it...." but then I just think...man, you know. Ugh. It's just, I don't do ANYTHING with my kid that goes against my gut.

Please, please, please don't even let this thought cross your mind. Please, please, please, stand up for your son, whatever it takes.

And I'm quoting this again in case you missed it the first time:

"Today, it is often the more passive, compliant mother who will allow her son to be circumcised, acquiescing to the demands of medical professionals, husband, family or other outside sources - probably against her better judgment. The more self-determined, confident mother is more likely to insist that her son remain intact, since she has the strength to withstand the outside pressures of a circumcision oriented society."

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

Get strength, mama. We're here to help you.

And read my signature, again.

[FernG]

Oh, mama. Your DH sounds so much like mine. I'm so thankful to have married a reasonable man! My DH really listens to research and makes up his own mind. We had a girl, but he was 100% for cir also. I knew that the best way to get through to him was to let him feel like he had control. I read so much and then pass the info on to him, so he sometimes feels like he's not really making his own decisions. I didn't let the issue go but I only talked about it casually. I knew in my heart that if I let him circ our son, our marriage would be permanently damaged. If I couldn't change his mind, I was going to let the issue drop BUT I WAS NOT going to let the circ happen. Then I was just going to take it day by day after the birth. Since then, DH has come around and believes that circ is gentile mutilation, but it took a long time of me only occasionally bringing up info about complications- like meatal stinosis, news cases about botched circ, etc. Thinking about loosing the entire penis or having future penile surgery is pretty horrifying. The first thing that got through to DH was thinking about choosing elective, cosmetic surgery and then having to live with botched results that would have never occurred naturally. I didn't draw those conclusions for DH - I would say, "Oh no. Here's another case where a baby was circed and then... So sad." Over time, DH thought that is was an unnecessary risk. Now he thinks it's immoral, which is tough b/c now he has to face the fact that his mother and doctors stole something from us.

[A&A]

And please read this thread. I know it's long, but it's important.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...t+circumcision

[Galatea]

I'd stop talking about it at all. It might eventually percolate through his brain if you leave him alone. Then call his bluff when the baby is born. Write no circ all over the diapers and onesies and do not let him out of your sight and let your dh be the crazy one who tries to steal a baby to have him circumcised. I told my dh that I would divorce him and not put his name on the birth certificate before I let it happen to my baby. I was deadly serious. Then I stopped talking about it. It was his issue with his penis and he is an adult and he needs to be the one who gets over his own feelings. Mutilating his son to avoid unpleasant feelings was simply not an option.

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by benj

i'd say if you literally can't get out of it, explain to your hypothetical son when he gets older why it was done. explain that it was not something you agreed to. but it sounds like this subject or the act of circumcising you hypothetical son would severely damage the relationship between you and your husband.

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

Yeah...a part of me feels like "Okay, I will let me husband do this and I will hold my son and hate myself the whole time, but I will support him and will explain to him later on that I didn't support it but had to do it...." but then I just think...man, you know. Ugh. It's just, I don't do ANYTHING with my kid that goes against my gut. If I'm thinking of hating myself, for something that I decide to put my kid through...WHY would I do that thing? I'm a principled person. I have a few, little rules, that I let guide my life. I'm not a crazy person, who lives a regimented, in-between-the-lines type of life...there are just a few guidlines that are REALLY important to me....not harming my kids is one of them.

I totally disagree with benj here that this is something you might "have" to do to save your marriage, and I think your gut is telling you that, too.

You can't let him do this to your son. Your son is not your property, and he's not your husband's, either -- you can't use him as a bargaining chip to save your marriage when you know, fundamentally, in your gut, that circumcision is wrong. You are your son's guardian and you have to guard him from those who would do him harm, even if it's your dh.

I think you're right that your husband, who by your account already has self-image issues, is projecting onto your son some of the fear and anguish that he felt about being different because of his acne.

And compounding that is the fact that he is in such denial about the pain and harms of circumcision - understandably, as it is incredibly painful for men to admit that they were victimized as babies and their parents didn't protect them from it, and that their penises may function less than optimally as a result.

So what your dh is doing is the equivalent of putting his hands over his ears and going LA LA LA I'm not listening, because as long as I don't listen to you and insist my son be hurt like I was hurt, then I don't have to face my own feelings, doubts, insecurities, and pain. I'M FINE I'M FINE I'M FINE and if my son is cut he will be JUST FINE like I am FINE.

But he's an adult, and what you're looking at here is a trade-off between going along with what your dh wants because otherwise your dh may suffer uncomfortable emotions, and protecting your son from physical agony (however short-lived) and lifelong physical disability.

As I see it, you have to be the whole adult here in more ways than one -- you need to listen to your dh's feelings, acknowledge and validate them, show him how much you love him physically, emotionally, and spiritually just the way he is, BUT you also must stay strong and protect your son from the physical harm your dh wants to inflict so he doesn't have to work through or face his own inner turmoil.

You have to stand strong. Just stop thinking of circumcision as a "choice" and one you "have" to make. If this baby is another girl, would you contemplate even for one nanosecond cutting off part of her genitals for any reason whatsoever? No, you wouldn't. And this is EXACTLY the same situation. Your son's foreskin is just as functional and just as important as yours or your daughter's (your foreskin is your clitoral hood) and in fact much, much bigger area-wise.

So you don't have to persuade your dh to see things your way, because when you do that you're buying into the reasoning that circumcision is a valid choice for babies (which it never, ever is, whether they're boys or girls). You need to listen to him and acknowledge his feelings and emotions, but you also need to take your wind out of his sails and stop trying to argue with him or persuade him.

Instead you need to believe in your heart that your son will be whole, just as your daughter is whole, and that nothing will change that until your son's guardianship passes into his own hands. Then you will have the courage and strength to protect him from what is really a cultural psychosis that your dh is exhibiting.

(Oh, and totally gross about catch-and-release for ticks -- they should all be exterminated from the face of the earth!!!)

[benj]

Originally Posted by Quirky

I totally disagree with benj here that this is something you might "have" to do to save your marriage, and I think your gut is telling you that, too.

just to clarify, that's not what i meant. i said circumcising would damage the relationship. i only wrote the first part because she said she felt like she couldn't get out of it...and that it would still cause problems even if she did what her husband wanted.

"the act of circumcising you hypothetical son would severely damage the relationship between you and your husband."

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

Thank you so much everyone, for your replies.

We don't have a ped or an OB. I was with a midwife last pregnancy, this pregnancy am about 95% UP (unassisted pregnancy) and will also UC (unassisted chidbirth). I have a backup midwife...but she is not a person he would have that conversation with. Our DDs doctor (a General Practitioner, MD, or something) is....a universal blessing...just so crunchy, so supportive. He's a super educated guy and stays ontop of the latest information...he doesn't just swallow what drug reps tell him, or what the concensus in the medical community is...he's completely supportive of our parenting chioces, including our decision not to vax and is always giving me more info on natural parenting choices and resources. He's awesome. Maybe, just maybe, DH would talk to him...but he's never met the man. I don't know how that would go.

It doesn't look gross to me. It looks like a penis, to me.

This makes things a little easier on you and a little harder for him because you'd have to make a special arrangements to do it.

[alegna]

Stop arguing or trying to sell it. If it comes up be calm and centered and 100% sure. Your son will not be cut. Period. Paragraph. End.Of.Discussion.

You will not allow it. You will not schedule it. You will not sign off on it. You will NOT ALLOW IT.

And stick to it.

-Angela

[Papai]

Whenever someone you know to be clear thinking and logical starts putting up walls and shutting down discussions, it's because there are issues and complexes that need to be dealt with.

The locker room thing is a myth. Matching daddy? I'm intact and my father is intact but I never knew that until my son was born and my father asked me if we circ'd him.

Disgusting? Does he find eyelids disgusting? Disgusting is a strong word and why does he feel that way about another man's penis?