How far do you take it, with your pro-circ DH? Am I over the top? Crazy? - Page 2

[beru]

My son is intact and my husband was supportive. I sometimes wonder what I would have done if he insisted on circing. What you are describing is like a nightmare. I am so sorry. I bet this will not be a popular post but I actually would consider circing my son if my DH insisted. Considering it and allowing it to happen are two different things, though. I can't know what I would really do in the end because, deep down, I do believe circ is wrong no matter what.

This is all hypothetical...I would tell my husband I will consider it if he agreed to research circ methods and anesthesia*, if we interview experienced physicians in order to find one who will do it in his office with low lighting, without a cold hard circumstraint, with the most effective anesthesia possible. I would insist that both of us be present and it be done 1 or 2 weeks after birth. I would also tell him that if we go through with this it will definitely damage our marriage and he should consider going to marriage counseling with me. That is not a threat because I also believe if I forbid the circumcision and denied him his choice that could also damage our marriage.

I have a wonderful family with my DH. And it sounds like you do too, with your family. Maybe it is worth a difficult compromise to maintain that. I am not sure it would work, though. Would the trust in the relationship be irreparably damaged? If that is the case with your DH and you, then you do have to say no. It is then a no-win situation for your DH and you and at least by saying no, your son "wins".

*I know even the best local anesthetic methods do not eliminate the pain of circumcision.

[BoringTales]

I wouldn't abandon my family, my husband, and separate my kids from a loving father over this one issue.

Besides that, if you do separate, he'll have visitation rights...unsupervised visitation rights. He's the father and perfectly able to sign medical concent forms. See where I'm going with this?

[Amila]

I would threaten divorce and tell him I was getting a lawyer and that I was going to pursue full custody of the kids (full well knowing that he probably would not divorce me and would give in) because I am vindictive like that. I would never.ever.ever let my son get circ'd.

[boat rocker]

that is what many men (and women who have bought into this patriarchal control nonsense, unfortunately want you to believe...that you are CRAZY. and 'over the top' when following your wisdom (and that wisdom that has been here for eons...). they want you to think you are 'hysterical'. do you know where men derived that word from...hyster=womb/uterus, i believe (as in hysterectomy) & so being hysterical means you are irrational. an irrational nutty woman. because...you are a woman. BLAH!!!!!! i say.

amila, i totally feel your stance on this. and i support you, mama. maybe i'm not one to give input here as i'm single mama twice over now but you know...when it comes to things like this i do not stand down. it is not an option to me. and especially not for a man who most likely is an ignorant pig on other subjects as well within a family/relationship w/ me and the children. so. yeah. with that being said. i support you.

actually you know what. i AM one to give input here. and this and many other reasons are WHY i refuse to settle for b.s. within ANY relationship since i conceived my son. cxing is b.s. and as the mother there is NO WAY i'd bow down and give in to having my son cut & hurt like that.

if you have to threaten divorce to get hubby to comply, then maybe the marriage isn't even built on good stuff...which i think you are coming to see. but...since you are married to this guy (where i was NOT married to mine, thank the goddess), that presents a few issues that i did not/do not have. i can't agree with saving a marriage outweighs the fight to circ or not circ a son. to me, that is just nuts. to me, the marriage sucks obviously and it isn't worth making that sacrifice with my son. i think you are on the right track, mama. dh needs to edumacate himself or get a clue. or get busy loading up his own uhaul truck, IMHO. after he gets up from being kicked to the curb.

sorry. but i just don't go for this sort of nonsense w/ men. 'father' of my children or NOT. i'd much rather hold the reins than deal w/ their crap.

oh mama...hugs. that's all i can offer...is my life. my experiences and my stance. which is actually pretty huge if you think about it. we are changing the world...one relationship & one child at a time.

[Rico'sAlice]

I'm not sure where you live but it sounds pretty crunchy. If he's worried about your son blending in it might help to find out the percentage of boys being circed currently in your area. Maybe if DH knew how common it is to leave babies intact where you live (if that is indeed the case) it might make him worry less about it being an issue for DS. Does he know the national statistics already? It's not like intact babes are a tiny minority here anymore. And what is DS ever wanted to go to boarding school in Italy for a year (just for example) he would really not fit in at all being circumsized. Yes, that is a weird unlikely example, but so is your DHs reasoning, so it might make sense to him.

Anyway, as far as "how far to take it" think what you would do if he wanted to circ your DD?
My DH (German, intact) always made it clear to me that if I wanted to circ we would NOT be having children at all.
Also, the way the tide is turning it seems a lot more likely/eaisier that 10-15 years (or 6mo or 2 yrs!) from now your DH will come around and "forgive" you for opposing him on this rather than that your son will not think it was a big deal and not care that you let this be done to him.

[RoseDuperre]

I would 1. Make him give his reasons, and when he does (the locker room, HIV, whatever), 2. You respond accordingly with literature (links, books, resources) to respond to each point. ESPECIALLY if it's the locker room argument - nationwide it is absolutely an average of 50/50, and in the West the number of boys circed now is as low as 30%!

But then, if he is still so completely unwilling, then step 3 is THIS:

Originally Posted by alegna

Stop arguing or trying to sell it. If it comes up be calm and centered and 100% sure. Your son will not be cut. Period. Paragraph. End.Of.Discussion.

You will not allow it. You will not schedule it. You will not sign off on it. You will NOT ALLOW IT.

And stick to it.

Period.

Also, something that really stood out from your OP is this:

I think the way he sees this, he supports me 100% in everything, all the natural, gentle choices we've made for our DD....and he should be able to have this one little thing.

Um, NO. This is not some "thing" that he gets to have. (I'm not attacking you, I know you were just trying to describe his sentiments.) Getting to play football is a thing he gets to have. Sharing his favorite books. Irreparably violating his son's body is not his right.

[tallulahma]

Originally Posted by RoseDuperre

Um, NO. This is not some "thing" that he gets to have. (I'm not attacking you, I know you were just trying to describe his sentiments.) Getting to play football is a thing he gets to have. Sharing his favorite books. Irreparably violating his son's body is not his right.

:

no. nope. no way. not happening.

i would leave my dh before allowing him to physically mutilating my child. it is a monstrous act & i would treat it as such.

[robertandenith]

My husband was set that he wanted to have his son cut. But I was set that I wanted my son to make that decision himself. I was ready to fight with my DH and if I had to leave him I would've done it. Thankfully, he saw how dead set I was and decided to watch the videos (Penn & Teller bullshit circ video) to see the other side and what was the 'big deal'.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

You know...having been away for a few hours and thinking about this...I'm going to let it go. I'm not going to allow this to be an issue, because after searching my gut, I really don't think it is an issue...not MY issue anyhow. If my hypothetical son, wants to cut off a piece of his penis, I support him 100% in doing so. If he thinks, that the "extra" skin he has hanging onto his penis needs to go...fine. But he will be a rational, thinking, fully informed young adult, if and when he makes that choice.

It is simply not for my husband or I to decide, if my son should or should not lose a part of his penis, which SERVES A PURPOSE...though, many men do "just fine" without it. So..okay, from a functionality viewpoint, neither way is a catostrophic, sex-life ender...there is no health reason TO do it...so...it will be left up to my son.

That's my story, my reason and I'm sticking to it. Here's another thing I know about my husband: I doubt, highly, that he would even invest the time it would take, to track down a doctor, make the appointment, etc. Our sons doctor, who is currently my DDs doctor, won't do it. He would have to find someone, this "someone" would want to know why it is his wife delivered this boy at home, with no one in attendance....the list of explanations, paperwork, etc is long and getting longer the more I think about this and I simply cannot see him doing any of that. He HATES that kind of stuff more than anything. ANYTHING.

I really am going to stop talking about this. I KNOW he doesn't want to talk about this, he knows how upset I am about this and he is a GOOD husband...we have a GOOD marriage..and I know that while he is kicking and screaming now, that he knows I am serious about this and I simply cannot see him doing something with one of our children that I am this uncomfortable about. He wouldn't.

It struck me that he wouldn't do that, when one of you PPs said something about, even if I left, "he would have unsupervised visits" - I realized, really thinking about that, that I would not leave a good marriage over that, and that he would not wreck a good marriage for that, for circ. So. That's that.


He really is a good man. I think this issue comes down to his unresolved body image issues and emotional scarring from teenage years being projected onto our son...I think that it is manifesting in this way, in regards to circ, but I think that it is enough about something other than circ, that when it came down to it, it wouldn't be important enough to him....relaly thinking this out....I thinkyou guys are right, it's NOT about circ, it's about his son being "different"...and that idea, is not enough. He has stopped short on issues that were more important to him that this, in order to avoid upsetting me...and this would MORE than upset me.

I know him....I know he wouldn't do that. It might make him mad, not to do it...but you know what, I don't remember who it was that said this...but it WOULD permanently damage my marriage. I could never look at him the same way, if he hurt our son like that. Ever. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror the same way again, if I stayed in a marriage, that made me feel like I had to fold to something I find so evil and so wrong at it's most basic level.

So. Thank you all so much for throwing all of these ideas out at me...it made me think about angles of this that I hadn't before...because I was so wrapped up in the emotional issues, how truamatic it is, etc.

But you know what I thought of?? How he was telling me one day, that he thinks it's awful for people to pierce babies ears. I believe the specific language he used was "Our DD can get her ears pierced, when she tells us it's what she wants...why would we permanently modify her body, before she asked us to?" - and that's over something SO "normal" as ear piercing. SO....that's my new stance, because that's the part of this arguement that is the least emotionally charged and the MOST important: We don't modify bodies, before a person is old enough to ask for it to be done. Period. Damage, truama, botched jobs, loss of feeling, pain, estrogen receptors...none of that is even relevant any more, so far as I'm concerned. Not my choice, not DHs choice...not happening, period.

[KaylaBeanie]

I take the cake when it comes to crazy with partners.

I told my (now) ex that he'd literally have to kill me and pry my son from my cold dead arms before the (hypothetical at the time) baby would be circ'd. Then I'd come back and haunt said ex until he went crazy and killed himself. Uhh...yeah I think I got the point across!

[major_mama11]

Originally Posted by ShadowMoon

My dp wouldn't budge on the issue either. We could never have a calm, rational discussion over it, he was hung up on purely cosmetic arguments, and it became a real sore spot in our relationship. It still is. We kept our son intact, only because I put my foot down. I knew he would never go behind my back and get it done and I made all the people around me know I wanted him intact. He still resents me for it (we don't talk about it, but I know), but I know in my heart it was the right thing to do.

This is our situation too. DS is intact, but I know DH resents me for it by the snarky remarks he makes to DS sometimes, as in "Sorry, your mama wanted you to look like an alien"

In our case, it made it easier in that our midwives don't circ, and neither does the family doc we use. We would have had to find a new dr to get ds circed. Also, I make all medical appointments for the kids myself, and DH is upset, but not upset enough that he's motivated to call around and find some random doctor who will circ a baby who is not even their pt. He's not comfortable navigating all the phone calls involved, and that works in my favor. Maybe this will be the case with your DH as well?

In our case, I think it helped that I emphasized to DH that I'm not "anti-circ", but that I'm anti- making huge decisions for my son, that DS can make the choice to be circed when he's older if that's his preference. And after saying that, I avoided the topic for the rest of the pregnancy. I think trying to win him over on the topic would have solidified his pro-circ position even more- he's stubborn like that.

[Quirky]

Good going, mama!

You know, I think it's an indicator of how warped our culture is about modifying boy genitals that there are so many reasons given, and it gets so complicated between men and women, when really, it's so simple!

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

We don't modify bodies, before a person is old enough to ask for it to be done. Period. Damage, truama, botched jobs, loss of feeling, pain, estrogen receptors...none of that is even relevant any more, so far as I'm concerned. Not my choice, not DHs choice...not happening, period.

This is how it is for girls in our country (for genitals), and this is how it should be for boys, yet we tangle ourselves up in knots trying to prove it. The fact that we have so many reasons for circing, so many layers, just shows that what's buried underneath all of those layers HAS no good reason or justification and we have to wrap it up like an onion so we can't see the simple truth inside.

[major_mama11]

Originally Posted by calngavinsmom

Oh Momma s. I'm sorry your dh is being such a PITA. But I don't think this is an issue you can budge on, because if you do, it will be your son who pays for it. If you stand up for him and just say no, what is the worst thing that will happen? You need to sign the consent form, not just your dh. There is no reason for you to leave. Just say no. Everytime your dh says it will happen, tell him it will NOT happen. If he is not willing to make a responsible, informed decision for your son, he should not get to make one at all.

:

I'm a nurse, and I remember once a dad (not mom) signed the consent for the circ, and the docs refused to perform it. They insisted that it had to be mom to sign.

[earthmama369]

I'm glad you've found peace with your decision, averysmom. You've always struck me as a very reflective, "with it" person and you've described your relationship with your husband as a strong one. You two will weather this. If the circumcision discussion comes up again, based on your loving relationship with your husband, I would probably say something to him like, "I love you as you are, and I love who you were because everything you've done and everything you've been through brought you here to me. Please hear me. I know aspects of your past are painful, but you are going to have to work through them. I cannot allow you to work out any mental static on the body of our newborn child. It just won't happen. But I am here for you, in any other way you need to work this pain out."

[treespeak]

First off, sending loving thoughts to you and your DH... As hard as this is right now, this situation could be an opportunity for tremendous healing. Here's my take: your DH sounds like a truly beautiful, loving, sensitive person. And he was wounded beyond what words can describe. Part of his body, his foreskin, was stolen from him when he was a tiny baby. He was scared. He was scarred. He was hurt. And he had the coping skills of a newborn to deal with that pain. When an individual suffers abuse, it is not uncommon for the part of them that dealt with the abuse to get "stuck" at that developmental age. It is my guess that this is why your husband, usually so open and accepting of your well-researched ideas, simply can not talk about circumcision in a rational manner. Leaving your son intact will remind him of what he lost--and his way of coping with that loss as an infant/child/even now as an adult was to simply accept that having his foreskin cut off was inevitable/normal/no loss at all. So now your DH is facing that old wound, and even admitting that it IS a wound is beyond what he can do right now.

So, this is your chance, mama, to step up. It is your turn to make sure that your son doesn't suffer like your husband did. Your husband is incapable of being rational about this right now, so you need to step up, and protect your son. At the same time, open your heart to the tremendous pain inside your DH and realize that is keeping him from protecing his son. DH is afraid he lost something he can never get back. He did. DH is afraid his penis isn't whole. It isn't. DH is afraid that you wish he had been left intact. You likely do. And here's the kicker: DH is afaid that you will leave him/love him less because he was cut. And that's where you can stand up and say (through your actions) "I love you exactly as you are, and will stick with you. And I will protect our son the way you should have been protected."

So read all the no-circ lit, but know that appealing to your husband's rationality at this point is likely useless. Instead, extend to him love and acceptance. Know that he is dealing with a deep wound. Love your husband. Protect your son. Walk right through the middle of the flames. You can do it.

All my love.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Originally Posted by major_mama11

<snip>
In our case, it made it easier in that our midwives don't circ, and neither does the family doc we use. We would have had to find a new dr to get ds circed. Also, I make all medical appointments for the kids myself, and DH is upset, but not upset enough that he's motivated to call around and find some random doctor who will circ a baby who is not even their pt. He's not comfortable navigating all the phone calls involved, and that works in my favor. Maybe this will be the case with your DH as well?

See this is the thing for me....his kicking and screaming has been so loud, that it's distracted me from simple fact that I *know* he's not going to put the effort into making this happen. It's jsut not going to happen...he wouldn't know where to begin.

Originally Posted by major_mama11

In our case, I think it helped that I emphasized to DH that I'm not "anti-circ", but that I'm anti- making huge decisions for my son, that DS can make the choice to be circed when he's older if that's his preference. And after saying that, I avoided the topic for the rest of the pregnancy. I think trying to win him over on the topic would have solidified his pro-circ position even more- he's stubborn like that.

Bingo. I'm not against any body modification that an informed, fully rational adult wants to have preformed on his body. Children...no dice.

[benj]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

You know...having been away for a few hours and thinking about this...I'm going to let it go. I'm not going to allow this to be an issue, because after searching my gut, I really don't think it is an issue...not MY issue anyhow. If my hypothetical son, wants to cut off a piece of his penis, I support him 100% in doing so. If he thinks, that the "extra" skin he has hanging onto his penis needs to go...fine. But he will be a rational, thinking, fully informed young adult, if and when he makes that choice.

It is simply not for my husband or I to decide, if my son should or should not lose a part of his penis, which SERVES A PURPOSE...though, many men do "just fine" without it. So..okay, from a functionality viewpoint, neither way is a catostrophic, sex-life ender...there is no health reason TO do it...so...it will be left up to my son.

That's my story, my reason and I'm sticking to it. Here's another thing I know about my husband: I doubt, highly, that he would even invest the time it would take, to track down a doctor, make the appointment, etc. Our sons doctor, who is currently my DDs doctor, won't do it. He would have to find someone, this "someone" would want to know why it is his wife delivered this boy at home, with no one in attendance....the list of explanations, paperwork, etc is long and getting longer the more I think about this and I simply cannot see him doing any of that. He HATES that kind of stuff more than anything. ANYTHING.

I really am going to stop talking about this. I KNOW he doesn't want to talk about this, he knows how upset I am about this and he is a GOOD husband...we have a GOOD marriage..and I know that while he is kicking and screaming now, that he knows I am serious about this and I simply cannot see him doing something with one of our children that I am this uncomfortable about. He wouldn't.

It struck me that he wouldn't do that, when one of you PPs said something about, even if I left, "he would have unsupervised visits" - I realized, really thinking about that, that I would not leave a good marriage over that, and that he would not wreck a good marriage for that, for circ. So. That's that.


He really is a good man. I think this issue comes down to his unresolved body image issues and emotional scarring from teenage years being projected onto our son...I think that it is manifesting in this way, in regards to circ, but I think that it is enough about something other than circ, that when it came down to it, it wouldn't be important enough to him....relaly thinking this out....I thinkyou guys are right, it's NOT about circ, it's about his son being "different"...and that idea, is not enough. He has stopped short on issues that were more important to him that this, in order to avoid upsetting me...and this would MORE than upset me.

I know him....I know he wouldn't do that. It might make him mad, not to do it...but you know what, I don't remember who it was that said this...but it WOULD permanently damage my marriage. I could never look at him the same way, if he hurt our son like that. Ever. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror the same way again, if I stayed in a marriage, that made me feel like I had to fold to something I find so evil and so wrong at it's most basic level.

So. Thank you all so much for throwing all of these ideas out at me...it made me think about angles of this that I hadn't before...because I was so wrapped up in the emotional issues, how truamatic it is, etc.

But you know what I thought of?? How he was telling me one day, that he thinks it's awful for people to pierce babies ears. I believe the specific language he used was "Our DD can get her ears pierced, when she tells us it's what she wants...why would we permanently modify her body, before she asked us to?" - and that's over something SO "normal" as ear piercing. SO....that's my new stance, because that's the part of this arguement that is the least emotionally charged and the MOST important: We don't modify bodies, before a person is old enough to ask for it to be done. Period. Damage, truama, botched jobs, loss of feeling, pain, estrogen receptors...none of that is even relevant any more, so far as I'm concerned. Not my choice, not DHs choice...not happening, period.

good job.

i think it's also great that you attempt to understand what's going on with your husband and his emotional issues. too often, guys are repressed with that sort of thing, and we need it pried out of us. it seems you do have a very good marriage. it's saddening that your husband's issues are manifested in this way, but at least you caught it and are recognizing it. if your hypothetical son were to be circumcised, it would only temporarily make his negative feelings subside. he will have to deal with them at some point, and preferably not at a child's expense.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Originally Posted by earthmama369

I'm glad you've found peace with your decision, averysmom. You've always struck me as a very reflective, "with it" person and you've described your relationship with your husband as a strong one. You two will weather this. If the circumcision discussion comes up again, based on your loving relationship with your husband, I would probably say something to him like, "I love you as you are, and I love who you were because everything you've done and everything you've been through brought you here to me. Please hear me. I know aspects of your past are painful, but you are going to have to work through them. I cannot allow you to work out any mental static on the body of our newborn child. It just won't happen. But I am here for you, in any other way you need to work this pain out."

And you know...it strikes me, that my anger and lashing out about CIRC, probably felt, because this issue is not really about circ for him, very attacking and hostile. *I* was being fierce about my son penis...he *felt* my fierceness at the core of his very deepest insecurities...all this unresolved crap, that's making my loving rational husband shut down and not "care" about how traumatic and violent this is.

Thank you for your loving words and thoughts.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Originally Posted by benj

good job.

i think it's also great that you attempt to understand what's going on with your husband and his emotional issues. too often, guys are repressed with that sort of thing, and we need it pried out of us. it seems you do have a very good marriage. it's saddening that your husband's issues are manifested in this way, but at least you caught it and are recognizing it. if your hypothetical son were to be circumcised, it would only temporarily make his negative feelings subside. he will have to deal with them at some point, and preferably not at a child's expense.

And I think that in the end, having a son to begin with, would start to really help him move toward healing his boy self...in a healthy way. Instead of projecting ONTO our son his hurtful past...working through it, by guiding our son through boyhood, into a young adulthood much more supported than the one he had (His dad up and left while he was at the store one day with his mother and siblings...he is a doctor, so he had lots of money to send, but no time for the kids...so, no dad to help him become a young man in any amount of comfort...in addition to a mother who didn't want to push him, and so, allowed him to slip away, into himself...without ever facing anything).

I think that being a hands on, loving, supportive dad to a son, would help to heal a lot for him and I think that eventually, leaving his son intact, would prove to be a source of happiness for him. I know that, eventually, all this past hurt will be resolved and at that point, when he can see the issue for what it is, when it's ABOUT circ, for him...he'll agree that we don't condone that sort of violence.

So...I think I'm making this stand for my son, for my own heart...and also for the man I know my husband to be, underneath this clouded issue that is so mixed up and painful for him.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

WWYD? Am I placing too much value on my sons foreskin? Would you budge? I know I have until November, to divise a better plan than leaving or "duking it out" or whatever else...so, I know that I don't have to do something now....but, I'm asking if my feeling of taking this as far as it needs to go, is crazy. Some of you mamas...who have all intact boys....if your DH had pushed it to a point where he was basically like "there is no way in hell we're not circ'ing" - would you have folded?

No. I wouldn't have folded. I was fortunate that neither my ex nor dh cared enough to fight me on this. They didn't agree, but didn't/don't see it as a big deal. However, I would no more allow my son to be circumcised than allow any other body part to be cut off. I wouldn't stay with my husband if he insisted that my son's finger would be cut off, or if he insisted on removing my son's earlobe...or toe...or fingernails...or anything else. Why should his foreskin be any different? Just because lots of other people have done it?

...and he should be able to have this one little thing.

It's not a little thing. It's cutting off a piece of someone else's body. If it's a little thing, why does he care so much?

I really didn't think it would be hard to convince him, on the premise that it is violent and unecessary, that we shouldn't circ. And yet, here I am. What, oh what, to do?

I'm so sorry. I can only imagine how it would feel to be up against such a brick wall with dh. How heartbreaking.