How far do you take it, with your pro-circ DH? Am I over the top? Crazy? - Page 3

[RoseDuperre]

Your new attitude is great.

Do keep us posted!

[major_mama11]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

...

So...I think I'm making this stand for my son, for my own heart...and also for the man I know my husband to be, underneath this clouded issue that is so mixed up and painful for him.

Good for you- and your possibly male baby!

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Originally Posted by treespeak

First off, sending loving thoughts to you and your DH... As hard as this is right now, this situation could be an opportunity for tremendous healing. Here's my take: your DH sounds like a truly beautiful, loving, sensitive person. And he was wounded beyond what words can describe. Part of his body, his foreskin, was stolen from him when he was a tiny baby. He was scared. He was scarred. He was hurt. And he had the coping skills of a newborn to deal with that pain. When an individual suffers abuse, it is not uncommon for the part of them that dealt with the abuse to get "stuck" at that developmental age. It is my guess that this is why your husband, usually so open and accepting of your well-researched ideas, simply can not talk about circumcision in a rational manner. Leaving your son intact will remind him of what he lost--and his way of coping with that loss as an infant/child/even now as an adult was to simply accept that having his foreskin cut off was inevitable/normal/no loss at all. So now your DH is facing that old wound, and even admitting that it IS a wound is beyond what he can do right now.

So, this is your chance, mama, to step up. It is your turn to make sure that your son doesn't suffer like your husband did. Your husband is incapable of being rational about this right now, so you need to step up, and protect your son. At the same time, open your heart to the tremendous pain inside your DH and realize that is keeping him from protecing his son. DH is afraid he lost something he can never get back. He did. DH is afraid his penis isn't whole. It isn't. DH is afraid that you wish he had been left intact. You likely do. And here's the kicker: DH is afaid that you will leave him/love him less because he was cut. And that's where you can stand up and say (through your actions) "I love you exactly as you are, and will stick with you. And I will protect our son the way you should have been protected."

So read all the no-circ lit, but know that appealing to your husband's rationality at this point is likely useless. Instead, extend to him love and acceptance. Know that he is dealing with a deep wound. Love your husband. Protect your son. Walk right through the middle of the flames. You can do it.

All my love.

Thank you, dear, for your kind words of encouragement.

I was thinking about newborns...remembering those first few days. How I barely moved from my babys side, but for a moment to pee or sneak a snack. Just, laying with her, watching her drift in and out of sleep..drifting in and out of sleep myself..it's all such a beautiful blur of breastmilk and slow walking and a pure amazement at this new addition....you know? Just being in awe of how TRULY fresh, how remarkably small and perfect a new baby is. It is inconcievable to me, that any person would..COULD...break that enchantment, with the piercing screams of a baby, being hurt in ways NO child should be hurt. I mean, people...we didn't speak in but a hush, for a week after she was born...when she came into this world...it was into her dads gentle hands...in soothing warm water, with low low lights and almost no noise, save a few gasps of ecstacy from me, hushed whispers of exuberant joy from him...and the light sound of native american pipe music flowing somewhere in the background...or maybe the rain CD was on at the time...either one. It was magic...MAGIC. I couldn't concieve of breaking that magic, of so injuring a freshling like that.

I remember we didn't want those moments to end, ever. I never wanted those first few precious moments to end. She was finally with us and I was in warm water and he was so in love with her and with me and he couldn't stop holding me and touching me and I couldn't stop wishing that time would stop. I never wanted to get out of that pool, I never wanted to stop living that love...the incredible love of that moment. And you know what? I haven't. I never will, I promise to always remember that night, the night I *truly* fell in love with my husband, a deeper love than I ever thought I knew...even as much as I loved him before. And I'll always remember, and hold in my heart, my complete amazement and love for my precious daughter...I'll never allow anything to make me feel any less than that, than THAT family, sitting in the pool, holding each other and just so glad to be together, so aware of the fact that the only things that mattered in all the world were right there wrapped up in my DHs arms.

Circ'ing our son....would forever marr his birth. I could never do that to him, never would do that to him...and I think it's easy, for a man to think of a son and think...Man Child. Yes, Circ him, like ME. But when my darling DH, who is so loving and kind, who comes off as the most gruff character...but who is secretly a GIGANTIC softy or anything smaller than, weaker than...whatever..the underdog..he can't help himself...he melts...when he lays eyes on his little baby boy, and I hope now more than ever that he does, there is no way he would consent to that sort of harm to him. Ever. I know he will be lost again, in that loving place of awe...and I doubt, judging from his behavior at our last birth...that it would even cross his mind.

I can't wait to find out if this little baby is a boy or a girl...what excitement, to have a little boy, too....my happiness at the thought of a son for us, has been restored. I'm so glad for this.

[claddaghmom]

YMMV but that type of arguing would be followed by a call to a good counselor and instant scheduling for marital and individual therapy.

Differences are one thing; stonewalling is another and TBH when something is "untouchable" like that it's a big huge neon sign saying "issues! I have issues!"

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

It is simply not for my husband or I to decide, if my son should or should not lose a part of his penis, which SERVES A PURPOSE...though, many men do "just fine" without it. So..okay, from a functionality viewpoint, neither way is a catostrophic, sex-life ender...

It can be, though. One thing people tend to do with "routine" surgeries, such as circ (or c-sections, my pet peeve) is assume that everything will go well. There is no guarantee that any given circ procedure won't be botched. It's not nice to think about, but why perform an unnecessary surgery that has any chance of causing long-term harm? A baby died during a circ in the UK not that long ago. Sure - it's rare. So is stillbirth...but I have three living children, after four term pregnancies. Things go wrong. The only surgery that is guaranteed to be free of complications is one that never happens.

He really is a good man. I think this issue comes down to his unresolved body image issues and emotional scarring from teenage years being projected onto our son...I think that it is manifesting in this way, in regards to circ,

When and if you have to talk about it again, look up the circ rates in your area. A lot of people assume that the rates are still at virtually 100%, but it's not true. There are many, many more boys being left intact these days. I've never seen a grown man - or teen, when I was a teen - with an intact penis (I'm 40). Every boy in my family - my sons, my nephews, my brother - is intact, though. Every one. Of those boys I know the status of - children of friends and such - I only know of one boy who was circ'd. BC is a low circ area, but the rates are generally dropping all over North America. It's possible that circing your (hypothetical) son could be what makes him "different".

But you know what I thought of?? How he was telling me one day, that he thinks it's awful for people to pierce babies ears. I believe the specific language he used was "Our DD can get her ears pierced, when she tells us it's what she wants...why would we permanently modify her body, before she asked us to?" - and that's over something SO "normal" as ear piercing. SO....that's my new stance, because that's the part of this arguement that is the least emotionally charged and the MOST important: We don't modify bodies, before a person is old enough to ask for it to be done. Period..

:
I won't pierce a baby's ears, either...for the same reasons I won't circ.

[kcstar]

I think DH was concerned about the "look like dad" issue, and also locker-room teasing. My brothers are uncirc'ed, I had one of them talk to him about it. (Basically, he told DH it wasn't an issue). It worked out for me, I hope it will for you.

[benj]

Originally Posted by kcstar

I think DH was concerned about the "look like dad" issue, and also locker-room teasing. My brothers are uncirc'ed, I had one of them talk to him about it. (Basically, he told DH it wasn't an issue). It worked out for me, I hope it will for you.

i never understood the "look like dad" thing. i've never once looked at my penis and thought of my dad. that's actually a little gross, to be honest.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by BoringTales

I wouldn't abandon my family, my husband, and separate my kids from a loving father over this one issue.

Besides that, if you do separate, he'll have visitation rights...unsupervised visitation rights. He's the father and perfectly able to sign medical concent forms. See where I'm going with this?

And yet, OVER MY DEAD BODY sends a message, loud and clear.

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

Thank you, dear, for your kind words of encouragement.

I was thinking about newborns...remembering those first few days. How I barely moved from my babys side, but for a moment to pee or sneak a snack. Just, laying with her, watching her drift in and out of sleep..drifting in and out of sleep myself..it's all such a beautiful blur of breastmilk and slow walking and a pure amazement at this new addition....you know? Just being in awe of how TRULY fresh, how remarkably small and perfect a new baby is. It is inconcievable to me, that any person would..COULD...break that enchantment, with the piercing screams of a baby, being hurt in ways NO child should be hurt. I mean, people...we didn't speak in but a hush, for a week after she was born...when she came into this world...it was into her dads gentle hands...in soothing warm water, with low low lights and almost no noise, save a few gasps of ecstacy from me, hushed whispers of exuberant joy from him...and the light sound of native american pipe music flowing somewhere in the background...or maybe the rain CD was on at the time...either one. It was magic...MAGIC. I couldn't concieve of breaking that magic, of so injuring a freshling like that.

I remember we didn't want those moments to end, ever. I never wanted those first few precious moments to end. She was finally with us and I was in warm water and he was so in love with her and with me and he couldn't stop holding me and touching me and I couldn't stop wishing that time would stop. I never wanted to get out of that pool, I never wanted to stop living that love...the incredible love of that moment. And you know what? I haven't. I never will, I promise to always remember that night, the night I *truly* fell in love with my husband, a deeper love than I ever thought I knew...even as much as I loved him before. And I'll always remember, and hold in my heart, my complete amazement and love for my precious daughter...I'll never allow anything to make me feel any less than that, than THAT family, sitting in the pool, holding each other and just so glad to be together, so aware of the fact that the only things that mattered in all the world were right there wrapped up in my DHs arms.

Circ'ing our son....would forever marr his birth. I could never do that to him, never would do that to him...and I think it's easy, for a man to think of a son and think...Man Child. Yes, Circ him, like ME. But when my darling DH, who is so loving and kind, who comes off as the most gruff character...but who is secretly a GIGANTIC softy or anything smaller than, weaker than...whatever..the underdog..he can't help himself...he melts...when he lays eyes on his little baby boy, and I hope now more than ever that he does, there is no way he would consent to that sort of harm to him. Ever. I know he will be lost again, in that loving place of awe...and I doubt, judging from his behavior at our last birth...that it would even cross his mind.

I can't wait to find out if this little baby is a boy or a girl...what excitement, to have a little boy, too....my happiness at the thought of a son for us, has been restored. I'm so glad for this.

That was beautiful. :

[perspective]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

He has made his reasons known. He is not vague on this, he is not wavering...it's not a fear thing, where he's just fearful for his son being teased or something like that...he won't budge, because he beleives that he is RIGHT. He believes, that circumcision is *right*. THAT is the trouble here. It's not a case of, he just needs to hear the right information, or, if I can show him, that his penis DOESN'T have all it's features, maybe he'll agree...he really and truly believes that this is the right thing to do. He's solid, 100% in this.

What do you think was the first lesson you learned after you were born? That food comes from mommy? Or the comforting sent of your dad?

Before your husband learned to love living things, or to think rationally, or possibly even before he learned what his mother looked like, he was circumcised. The very first lesson he EVER learned after being born was that circumcision is good, and should be done to boys. Everything else grew from that.

There is a power in body modification, a power that changes the way we think about ourselves, and how we think about others on extremely deep and personal level. The fact that his body modification happened as an infant only intensifies all that.

In his mind of course its right, your questioning a basic pillar of his existence. Of his views on the body, and the rights of individuals.

Working through this is going to need more then just a persuasive argument. Be set for a storm, there is no way around it. You have to find ways of weathering it, and facing it head on. I think you can get through this as a family, but it wont be easy.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by perspective

What do you think was the first lesson you learned after you were born? That food comes from mommy? Or the comforting scent of your dad?

Before your husband learned to love living things, or to think rationally, or possibly even before he learned what his mother looked like, he was circumcised. The very first lesson he EVER learned after being born was that circumcision is good, and should be done to boys. Everything else grew from that.

There is a power in body modification, a power that changes the way we think about ourselves, and how we think about others on extremely deep and personal level. The fact that his body modification happened as an infant only intensifies all that.

In his mind of course its right, your questioning a basic pillar of his existence. Of his views on the body, and the rights of individuals.

Working through this is going to need more then just a persuasive argument. Be set for a storm, there is no way around it. You have to find ways of weathering it, and facing it head on. I think you can get through this as a family, but it wont be easy.

This is very profound. (I mean that).

[Quickbeam]

What a good thread. I'm glad you were able to work through this, mama.

You know, there have been times in my marriage when I was behaving unreasonably and my husband sort of gently hit the "override button." So from the other perspective, I can say that I'm thankful for what he did. I hope your DH will feel the same in time.

As to your original question, genital cutting is a deal breaker for me. I'm glad DH feels the way I do about it.

[jenP]

Hugs to you! What a tough thing to go through when pregnant!

How far should you go? Well, how far would you go if your husband wanted to cut off your child's clitoris? Would moving in with your mom seem so bizarre, to protect your daughter from sexual mutilation?

Why is he acting this way? Why is such a rational, caring man not able to look at the facts and consider the violence? Because he was circumcised. All his life he was told circumcised was better. Of course he believed it! And now you tell him it takes away important, functioning, sensitive sexual tissue? What a blow! Now you want him to question circumcision? Any questioning of circumcision means questioning himself, his penis, his sexuality. How difficult that must be! You say he wants to do it to your son because he believes it is the RIGHT thing. Well, how would he feel if he had to admit to himself that it is wrong? He might feel violated (by the doctors and his parents), rejected by you (he might feel you think intact is "better" because you want it for your son), judged, who knows what other bad feelings? So men build this wall of denial. It can be hard to break down.

It might be best to just let it be known you will go to any lengths necessary to protect your son from a human rights violation, and then DROP IT. After all, no more discussion is needed. " I will protect him. End of discussion." Your husband may need lots of time and lots of space to digest this. Luckily you have time. Show him how much you love and cherish him, don't discuss circ at all, and let him take his time to come to terms with it all. Most caring, rational men do, eventually.

Best to you!!
And having a boy is really fun, I hope you get to experience it without all the strife.

Jen

[1littlebit]

i am glad you are not going to let it happen... or let it be an issue.

a few of the PPs have said their husbands resent them for this, why are they letting this continue to be an issue? it is not going to change so what is the point of their resentment? why on earth would a guy tell his child that his intact status makes him look like an alien? am i the only one who would leave if DP did that and refused to stop? isnt making fun of a childs genitals some form of abuse? why is he trying to make his son feel ashamed of his penis? are these common issues with men who are pro circ but leave their sons intact?

i told dp there was no medical reason he said ok we wont do it hes also against infant ear piercing... who knew. the man doesn't vote but he has strong opinions about ear piercing.

[benj]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

i am glad you are not going to let it happen... or let it be an issue.

a few of the PPs have said their husbands resent them for this, why are they letting this continue to be an issue? it is not going to change so what is the point of their resentment? why on earth would a guy tell his child that his intact status makes him look like an alien? am i the only one who would leave if DP did that and refused to stop? isnt making fun of a childs genitals some form of abuse? why is he trying to make his son feel ashamed of his penis? are these common issues with men who are pro circ but leave their sons intact?

i think it's more common with guys that are a little older. most teenagers/young men that i've talked to say they don't want to do it to their sons. i've always thought circumcised penises looked mutilated, which is why i'm having such a problem dealing with my chosen status...

[perspective]

i think it's more common with guys that are a little older. most teenagers/young men that i've talked to say they don't want to do it to their sons. i've always thought circumcised penises looked mutilated, which is why i'm having such a problem dealing with my chosen status...

I agree. I think its an age issue. God maybe there was a time (the 50's, or 70's,?) Where if you were intact you were seen as a freak. That a little boy with a foreskin would teased and harassed in the locker room, and avoided by all the girls. Maybe some of these older Dad's saw this one day as a child, and it cemented into them as this really funny day, but horrified them to imagine their son being at the other end of those social attacks.

Maybe that happened decades ago. But not anymore. Younger fathers may remember seeing an intact guy (heck maybe a group) and it was different but no one took notice, it was never as big of a deal.


Side note: Benji- I dont know what your reasons were, but those must have been some strong reasons if you did it knowing you might view your own penis has mutilated afterwards.

[lawmama1984]

Originally Posted by alegna

Stop arguing or trying to sell it. If it comes up be calm and centered and 100% sure. Your son will not be cut. Period. Paragraph. End.Of.Discussion.

You will not allow it. You will not schedule it. You will not sign off on it. You will NOT ALLOW IT.

And stick to it.

-Angela

Originally Posted by RoseDuperre

Irreparably violating his son's body is not his right.

: :

And big : AverysMomma. I just want to say your attitude seems great...I really hope this will not be an issue for you and your DH, but I am glad that you know where you stand (and I also like how you made the connection between your DH's stance on ear piercing and circ). Congratulations on your pregnancy and I hope you keep us posted on if you are having a boy or a girl

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by BoringTales

I wouldn't abandon my family, my husband, and separate my kids from a loving father over this one issue.

Besides that, if you do separate, he'll have visitation rights...unsupervised visitation rights. He's the father and perfectly able to sign medical concent forms. See where I'm going with this?

Medical issues are something that can be dealt with as part of a divorce settlement -- i.e., both parents have to consent to a procedure like circumcision.

I realize this is not relevant for the OP, but no mother should ever be blackmailed into harming her child because the father threatens to do it anyway, whether during the marriage or after. That is the worst form of emotional coercion.

[LaffNowCryLater]

I wouldn't do it. It would be a dealbreaker for me. My dh was right on board though b/c he was circd as a teen (for cosmetic reasons and he regrets it now esp when he found out I always wanted to uhm "experience" an intact penis and he said no way would he do it to an infant, especially with methods they use on a infant v. older male.

[Nandi]

Your new attitude sounds great. I second the motion of looking at circ. rates in your area. It may be favorably intact, esp. if you are on the West coast.
We can't say the R word, but pm me if you want some quotes that you feel would be relevant.
My attitude is also "Over my dead body."
You definitely aren't over the top or crazy. You just feel those momma instincts. Protect your baby