Need some mama advice (lil long, sorry ladies)

[EmilyVorpe]

Here's the rundown:
We are NOT GD, YET. We are working on it...we've never spanked, but we have done a little bit of yelling (please, no flames)... It's more my dh than me that has the trouble keeping his attitude and voice in check...but eh, we've all got our faults. SO anyway....here's where I'm needing the advice...

My 25 month old smears poop. Like, not just takes it out of her diaper, but takes it out and wipes it on EVERYTHING. She even has put it on her baby sister's head (several times). My kiddos are generally not left alone to their own devices, but there are times (making meals, potty breaks, rocking baby sister to sleep) that they are in an enclosed, safe room right next to where I am for ...5 minutes? While I prepare meals, I check on them every 2-3 minutes. She can smear poop in a matter of ...2 minutes? We have tried to explain to her why she can't do that, that it's not healthy, that its gross, that its not nice to do to her sister or her mama (to have to clean it up). She's generally bright, so I don't think it's a lack of intelligence that she's not listening. We have had to take out our carpets in the rooms because shampooing them every day is so much harder than mopping. Aside from not letting her alone for a second, what can I do to teach her? My parents and sisters have suggested spanking, slapping her hands, yelling at her, and sitting her in time out. We've done a few time outs but they don't seem to work AT ALL. She is cleaned off, put into her bed with some toys and books while I clean the mess. Last week, my dh walked into the room while she was reaching into her diaper and said "no! we don't do that!" in a loud voice and she THREW POOP AT HIM!
We can't spank. I don't want to yell...I've done it, it scares her, and it makes me feel disgusting. No yelling. I'm not about to hit her (for any reason, on any body part). I've tried explaining til I'm blue in the face (and I've used short sentences so she'd understand). Right now, we're at the point of using packing tape all the way around her diaper so she can't take it off (although she is now trying to reach through the leg openings). We thought maybe it meant she needs to be on a potty, but she was EXTREMELY resistant to that and I don't want to push her.
Sorry its long...but any ideas? We can't just let her smear poop on everything and everyone.

[bumblecat]

That sounds miserable. I am wondering how often you check her diaper. (I'm sure pretty often, considering the consequences of letting it go, but just so we have more info, how often?) And does she seem to be reaching in there to get it immediately after she poops, or maybe after it has been in there a few minutes? Does she ever talk about it, and if so, what does she have to say about it? And in what way was the potty option presented to her and in what way did she resist it?

I'm not a mom yet - working on my first one - but I've been a nanny for 8 years. I've experienced poo smearing before, but not as an ongoing pattern. The kids I have known that did it only did it once or a few times.

It can be really frustrating when there is a repeated behavior that is as unnacceptable as this in a child of this age because often they are not very respondent to our attempts to correct it by talking about it, and often they are not able to express the real reason they are doing it. Still, it's important to carefully choose a phrase that you feel she is developmentally able to comprehend and be repetitive with it even if it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

Do you think the reason for her doing it is physical (either she doesn't like the feeling of it in her diaper, or she does like the feeling of it in her hand) or emotional/psychological - like she is using it as a way to express dissatisfaction with something other than the feeling of her dirty diaper, or she just thinks it is funny, or something else?

At this stage, even though it is important to talk to her about it, she can't really be expected to stop just because she's being told not to do it. It would be nice if that would work, but in a case where the behavior really can't be left up to whether or not she decides to heed your directions, then in my experience you have to focus on preventing it from happening by making sure she has as little opportunity to do it as possible, by both changing her very often and not leaving her unattended - at all - if you really want to make sure it doesn't happen. Beyond that, when/if it does still happen, I would try to calmly and consistently explain to her that it is not ok and why, and encourage her gently to try the potty, though not so often that it becomes a habit for her to turn it down. Also, if she has the words, try asking her in a con-confrontational way about how she feels when she does it. I've known a few 2 yr olds who could answer those sorts of things surprisingly well.

The packing tape idea sounds like it is born from desperation and probably not the answer - seems like it would be uncomfortable for her and a PITA to change as often as she should be. BTW the tape is only on the diaper, not her skin, right?

I'm hard pressed to think of a natural consequence for this that would be a deterrant for her & not involve leaving poop on things. I guess it would be that she is not allowed out of sight of an adult?

[mommy2abigail]

Honestly, if it were me, I'd just potty train her. DD1 potty learned at 20 months, as in, we didn't use daytime diapers at all, not at home and not when we went out. I let her have a lot of nakey time and put a little potty in the living room and she learned pretty quickly. At this point, you are cleaning up poo all the time any way...so I'd just potty train her. Good luck!

[EmilyVorpe]

Originally Posted by mommy2abigail

Honestly, if it were me, I'd just potty train her. DD1 potty learned at 20 months, as in, we didn't use daytime diapers at all, not at home and not when we went out. I let her have a lot of nakey time and put a little potty in the living room and she learned pretty quickly. At this point, you are cleaning up poo all the time any way...so I'd just potty train her. Good luck!

We did try potty training...We offered her a small potty (which she picked out), a small ring that fits over the big potty, and letting her sit on the regular potty. She peed once on the potty in 3 days...the rest of the time, it was just peeing in her underwear. She really refused the potty big time. I'd like to try it again, but it just seemed....there wasn't anything that gave us hope that it was working. We are moving in a month, so I suppose I'll wait a little bit longer and then give it a go.

As for NEVER leaving her alone, it's just not possible. I cannot have her in the room while the baby is being rocked to sleep. It doesn't take long, but it's still a matter of her yelling at the baby for me holding her. And I can't drag all 3 kids to the bathroom with me every time.... ykwim? Trust me when I say she's alone for...3-5 minutes max, twice a day...and she uses that time, every time.
She doesn't say she doesn't like the feeling of the poop in her diaper, although she doesn't like the feeling of the pee...She doesn't like it on her hands because she's constantly trying to get it off her hands (by wiping it on everything). She's told me "all clean" when I've caught her.

I guess its potty training time.... *sigh* She just doesn't seem to want to....

[bumblecat]

I wish you good luck potty training. If it isn't possible to keep her in an adult's sight all the time, are you making sure you check her diaper every time prior to the few minutes that she must be out of sight? Is she actually holding it until she's alone so she can go and then put her hands in it?

[DoulaClara]

It sounds like she needs to have some sensory stimulation! It may not stop it altogether, or right away, but you could try setting her up at the table or in her high chair with some finger paint (there are some good homemade recipes online) and/ or play dough (ditto about homemade recipes) and do "clean mud" (mix shredded newspaper with some water) in a small bowl with utensils. Even a small bin of beans (if you are directly in eyesight of her, like if she's in her high chair while you prepare dinner, or sitting on the floor while you nurse or otherwise care for the baby) is sensory-speaking, very compelling. She might just need some extra sensory input, especially if she's a particularly bright little girl!

I'm glad you're seeking out more gentle, proactive parenting methods. Something like this would be very frustrating.

[mamazee]

1. Sensory stimulation in other ways to fill that need.

2. Put her in overalls or something else hard to get into.

[MommaShark]

I googled it and here's what I found...

from: http://babyshrink.com/tag/poop-smearing


Sounds like you have a complex problem here. If her pediatrician says there is nothing medically or developmentally wrong, you can try using some of these techniques:

First, try some concrete behavioral strategies. Does she have a usual time of day when she poops? Most toddlers do it about the same time each day, and only do it once. If she does, watch her closely until she’s made her poop. Don’t let her wander away from you unobserved until she has pooped. Then you can give her a little more free-reign after you know she’s done for the day. Also, you can dress her in a more restrictive way until she has done her poop. Get a larger size onesie, with perhaps some leggings over it, to put her in until she’s pooped. If she lets you know in advance that she needs to go, fine. You can help her get undressed and to the toilet. If not, it’s OK for now if she goes in her pull-up.

You might also move around things in “her corner”, making it a difficult or unappealing place to spend her time. Experiment with furniture in the room to see if you can re-configure it to “eliminate” that place where she usually goes. Change around the whole room so her association to it is also changed. Make “her corner” a more focal place of the room, so that it’s not a hideaway, and she can’t have any privacy there.

Don’t make a big deal about using the potty right now. She’s giving you mixed messages about being ready, and in that case, the advice is usually to back off from potty training. Let her be in charge of when she uses the potty. But do be clear with her that smearing poop or going on the floor is NOT an option. It’s yucky. Mommy does not like to clean that up. But when she DOES successfully use the potty, make a big deal out of it. Hurray! What a big girl! It’s so nice and clean when you go in the potty! Consider giving her a small treat (one jelly bean, for example) every time she does go to the potty, even if it’s just to pee. And try not to be scolding if she goes in her pull-up. Just be matter-of-fact about it, and clean it up.

I also would not use punishment if she smears poop again. You might remove her from the “scene of the crime”, since you have to sanitize it. Be serious, but neutral. Remind her where she should go, and that poop does not belong on the walls or the floor.

Also, it’s important to give her plenty of opportunity to play with acceptable, squishy, messy things like finger paints, play-doh, even mud pies. She clearly likes the feeling of it; give her ample opportunity to make a mess in an acceptable way. Tell her when you’re playing with messy things, “This is fun to be messy. We can be messy with paints!”

[Lovemy3babies]

Originally Posted by EmilyVorpe

Here's the rundown:
We are NOT GD, YET. We are working on it...we've never spanked, but we have done a little bit of yelling (please, no flames)... It's more my dh than me that has the trouble keeping his attitude and voice in check...but eh, we've all got our faults. SO anyway....here's where I'm needing the advice...

My 25 month old smears poop. Like, not just takes it out of her diaper, but takes it out and wipes it on EVERYTHING. She even has put it on her baby sister's head (several times). My kiddos are generally not left alone to their own devices, but there are times (making meals, potty breaks, rocking baby sister to sleep) that they are in an enclosed, safe room right next to where I am for ...5 minutes? While I prepare meals, I check on them every 2-3 minutes. She can smear poop in a matter of ...2 minutes? We have tried to explain to her why she can't do that, that it's not healthy, that its gross, that its not nice to do to her sister or her mama (to have to clean it up). She's generally bright, so I don't think it's a lack of intelligence that she's not listening. We have had to take out our carpets in the rooms because shampooing them every day is so much harder than mopping. Aside from not letting her alone for a second, what can I do to teach her? My parents and sisters have suggested spanking, slapping her hands, yelling at her, and sitting her in time out. We've done a few time outs but they don't seem to work AT ALL. She is cleaned off, put into her bed with some toys and books while I clean the mess. Last week, my dh walked into the room while she was reaching into her diaper and said "no! we don't do that!" in a loud voice and she THREW POOP AT HIM!
We can't spank. I don't want to yell...I've done it, it scares her, and it makes me feel disgusting. No yelling. I'm not about to hit her (for any reason, on any body part). I've tried explaining til I'm blue in the face (and I've used short sentences so she'd understand). Right now, we're at the point of using packing tape all the way around her diaper so she can't take it off (although she is now trying to reach through the leg openings). We thought maybe it meant she needs to be on a potty, but she was EXTREMELY resistant to that and I don't want to push her.
Sorry its long...but any ideas? We can't just let her smear poop on everything and everyone.

Seriously, check this out!!!

http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w...ruary08001.jpg

I could have written this post. My daugher smeered it EVERYWHERE. Hair, clothes, clothes in the dressers, dresser, beds, bedding, carpet, toys, EVERYWHERE. Seriously. It was sick. It will end. She wont do it forever. I seriously pinned my daughters clothes together. I would do that. Pin her shirt to her pants. She cant get it down then

ETA: My dauther did this all the time if I didnt catch her. With 2 others, she had a chance to do it a few more times then I would have liked. I threw up cleaning it up multiple times, it is miserabble. I think she is fine, it is a stage, and seriously PIN HER CLOTHE TOGETHER!

[BigC]

I sympathize with your situation. At that age my son did similar things as a way of asserting his independence. Both my wife and I lost our cool on several occasions.

I think you have several issues contributing to your problem. First, I think there is some bad sibling rivalry. If she does this when you are rocking the baby to sleep, she may be trying to take attention away from the baby. Negative attention is still attention in a child's mind, so the tremendous reaction that she gets when she smears poop all over the room seems like a good thing to her.

Next, she knows you don't trust her and is fulfilling your expectations. She needs to be trusted to help keep the house and herself clean. Give her time alone to give her a chance to show that she is trustworthy. When she lapses, remind her of instances when she behaved well and ignore the undesired behavior.

Finally, she needs to be toilet trained. If for no other reason than your own sanity. As a bonus, it gives her the responsibility of keeping herself clean and independence.

I think you would find "How to Talk so Kids will Listen" and "Siblings Without Rivalry" by Faber and Mazlish useful.

For toilet training, read "Toilet Training in Less Than A Day" by Azrin, but read the other two first. Addressing the sibling rivalry and autonomy issues might eliminate the need for toilet training.

Good luck, it is a long process.

[EmilyVorpe]

Thanks everyone!!!!!

She eats playdough, but I will try the paints and beans idea. I'm not opposed to messes--paint is much better to clean up than poop!
Sibling rivalry---yes. Yes yes yes. Most of the time she's okay with us holding the baby around her, but when she gets cranky or hungry, she is a nut about being held. If she gets an "ounchie" she screams at the babe in arms (LOUDLY). We also have to make sure to give our kids their plates at meal time in age order--she doesn't mind if her older brother gets his plate first, but screams at the baby if she gets it before her. I hate to say it...but she's kinda bratty some of the time. It's relatively new, all this. Like...1.5 months...I'm sure there are some things in her life that are crazy (we moved in March, moving again at the end of this month) to her.
I've tried the onesies and tights but she has managed to get through all of those. I'll try overalls now.
Thanks thanks thanks everyone!!!!!

[momma_unlimited]

Some sort of story? I loved the book 'Healing Stories for Challenging Behaviour' and I try to come up with stories for negative behaviour patterns. Also, can you try mittens? Not in a punitive way but if you tie them into the story (some little animal that kept putting mud all over his mother's clean house and she gave him mittens in the house to help him remember)...??? And a sandbox!? Even a small indoor one consisting of a low rubbermaid container... we do that in the winter.

Never underestimate the power of prayer, either! When my kids have a behaviour pattern I'm really struggling with I lay next to them after they fall asleep and pray, if you're not religious, you could send out intentions or something... I think it does help, in conjunction with the ideas you've been presented with.

[OkiMom]

Could your or your partner spend some special one on one time with her each day? Sounds like she wants some attention. Also, try not to overreact when she does it and have her help you clean it up.
I agree with potty training. With DD she started to refuse to wear diapers right before her second birthday so every hour I put her on the potty until she started going to the potty by herself (or with a reminder). It took probably 2 weeks before she started using it without me putting her on it. Its been probably 5 months and she rarely has an accident (maybe once every couple of weeks).