Had my first intacativist moment with a stranger today!!

[savvybabygrace]

My family and I were at a playground this morning and a 55yo woman came to sit on the bench with me (by the end of this conversation I knew her name, age, address, and career - she sure liked to share!!). We did the usual small talk and since I'm 37 wks pregnant of course she asked what the gender is, blah blah blah. I told her it's a boy, his name is Reid, those are my two daughters, yada yada...
She asked where I was delivering (birthing!! lol) and I said "at home", to which her eyes popped out of her head and she said "REALLY?!?" and the very next thing she said was "But what are you going to do about the circumcision?". I couldn't keep the emotion out of my voice when I replied "Oh, we'd NEVER do that!". She said, "May I ask WHY!?!?!" in a shocked voice. I answered "It's something we feel very strongly against. We'd never ever do that!"
Then she went on to ask wasn't I afraid of infection, and then she said "Well I work for a urologist...I see all these 80n year old men come in...": OKAY!!! ENOUGH RIGHT THERE!!
Thankfully her grandson did something she deemed dangerous and had to yell to him to stop, but I said in my head "Those 80 year old men were most likely forcefully retracted and THAT'S why they had infections and problems..." and was all ready to say that but instead changed the subject quickly.
I could tell she really really wanted to try to change my mind about circ'ing and went on to drill me about homebirth and if my daughters would be there and what if there was an emergency and what the heck to you do with a birthing tub anyway?....

I almost wanted her to ask me more about the circ and our stance but was glad to get away from her when it was time to go!

So yay for me not freezing up when confronted for the first time!

[perspective]

Originally Posted by savvybabygrace

My family and I were at a playground this morning and a 55yo woman came to sit on the bench with me (by the end of this conversation I knew her name, age, address, and career - she sure liked to share!!). We did the usual small talk and since I'm 37 wks pregnant of course she asked what the gender is, blah blah blah. I told her it's a boy, his name is Reid, those are my two daughters, yada yada...
She asked where I was delivering (birthing!! lol) and I said "at home", to which her eyes popped out of her head and she said "REALLY?!?" and the very next thing she said was "But what are you going to do about the circumcision?". I couldn't keep the emotion out of my voice when I replied "Oh, we'd NEVER do that!". She said, "May I ask WHY!?!?!" in a shocked voice. I answered "It's something we feel very strongly against. We'd never ever do that!"
Then she went on to ask wasn't I afraid of infection, and then she said "Well I work for a urologist...I see all these 80n year old men come in...": OKAY!!! ENOUGH RIGHT THERE!!
Thankfully her grandson did something she deemed dangerous and had to yell to him to stop, but I said in my head "Those 80 year old men were most likely forcefully retracted and THAT'S why they had infections and problems..." and was all ready to say that but instead changed the subject quickly.
I could tell she really really wanted to try to change my mind about circ'ing and went on to drill me about homebirth and if my daughters would be there and what if there was an emergency and what the heck to you do with a birthing tub anyway?....

I almost wanted her to ask me more about the circ and our stance but was glad to get away from her when it was time to go!

So yay for me not freezing up when confronted for the first time!

I have gotten into situations where the circ subject has popped up and I always wanted to use the chance to teach, but I am often too nervous, or like just wanted to get off the topic.

One time this happened with a friend while we were watching this documentary on Iraq with this scene where these 12 year old boys were talking about getting circumcised the next week. My friend commented "Wow, I did not know some guys got circumcised so late." She is aware that not everyone circumcises, but I wanted to use it to say how America is odd compared to most places for circing at birth, and then also talking about how uncommon it is internationally. But I just got too nervous, and we just continued watching the movie, as it moved on to a different subject.

[benj]

good job.

i was always too afraid/nervous to say stuff too, perspective. when people would say something bad about being intact, i always wanted to tell them i was not circumcised and it was fine...but then i'd think that was private info i should keep to myself.

[lawmama1984]

Way to go!!!! I am always so annoyed when people tell their (6 degrees of separation) horror stories about old men in the nursing home!! How irritating! How about I tell you about the many more horror stories of newborns who have adhesions, excessive blood loss or other complications from RIC??!?

Not to hijack your post, but I wanted to share my story too, and it seems pretty appropriate here (and plus I don't want to dignify this with a whole new thread):
I wanted to post a not so pleasant story that happened to me yesterday as I was driving to my parents' house. As you can see, I'm in Texas. I live in Austin, which is really liberal and I always get compliments on my intactivist bumper stickers and pins. Well, my parents live in Dallas, which is a few hours north and through some conservative cities. As I was driving, I notice this car to my left passing me and two men (one about my father's age, and one a grown young man, maybe 22?) sticking their hands out the window and making scissoring motions with their index and middle fingers!!! I think "Surely, they can't be doing that because of my bumper stickers." Well I pass them on the right again, and they do the same thing!!!! How sick?!?! Ok, even if you don't agree with my "Circumcision is just WRONG" bumper sticker, to stick your hand out the window and make a cutting motion:Puke I slowed down and let them pass me, but I wanted to share with some people I knew would understand. When I told my mom, she said "That's why you shouldn't have stuff like that on your car."

[benj]

Originally Posted by lawmama1984

Way to go!!!! I am always so annoyed when people tell their (6 degrees of separation) horror stories about old men in the nursing home!! How irritating! How about I tell you about the many more horror stories of newborns who have adhesions, excessive blood loss or other complications from RIC??!?

Not to hijack your post, but I wanted to share my story too, and it seems pretty appropriate here (and plus I don't want to dignify this with a whole new thread):
I wanted to post a not so pleasant story that happened to me yesterday as I was driving to my parents' house. As you can see, I'm in Texas. I live in Austin, which is really liberal and I always get compliments on my intactivist bumper stickers and pins. Well, my parents live in Dallas, which is a few hours north and through some conservative cities. As I was driving, I notice this car to my left passing me and two men (one about my father's age, and one a grown young man, maybe 22?) sticking their hands out the window and making scissoring motions with their index and middle fingers!!! I think "Surely, they can't be doing that because of my bumper stickers." Well I pass them on the right again, and they do the same thing!!!! How sick?!?! Ok, even if you don't agree with my "Circumcision is just WRONG" bumper sticker, to stick your hand out the window and make a cutting motion:Puke I slowed down and let them pass me, but I wanted to share with some people I knew would understand. When I told my mom, she said "That's why you shouldn't have stuff like that on your car."

wow, that's horrible. the whole point of them doing that was to make you feel uncomfortable/make fun of you...it's not that you had that on your car, it was just an easy target. you must be pretty vocal about it to have a bumper sticker though! i'm always afraid that if i talk about it, somebody will ask me if i'm circumcised...and i don't want to give that information out.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by benj

wow, that's horrible. the whole point of them doing that was to make you feel uncomfortable/make fun of you...it's not that you had that on your car, it was just an easy target. you must be pretty vocal about it to have a bumper sticker though! i'm always afraid that if i talk about it, somebody will ask me if i'm circumcised...and i don't want to give that information out.

Fortunately, the women don't have to worry about answering that question.

[lawmama1984]

Originally Posted by benj

wow, that's horrible. the whole point of them doing that was to make you feel uncomfortable/make fun of you...it's not that you had that on your car, it was just an easy target. you must be pretty vocal about it to have a bumper sticker though! i'm always afraid that if i talk about it, somebody will ask me if i'm circumcised...and i don't want to give that information out.

Yes, Benj. I am very vocal! Even though circ rates are lower in Austin (probably a little over 50%), I think they are still relatively high all over Texas. When I told my (mainstream) friends I wasn't circ'ing they all said "gross" and other such things. I was that type of parent until I was (thankfully) educated by my doulas and my OB. Now, I love talking about it and sharing information, on the slim possibility I can help a young mother who otherwise would to reconsider. I am not sure if it would be an issue if I were a man, but I know my DH, who is circ'd and was as an infant, is very open about it (although probably not as much as I am haha). I can understand not wanting to be as vocal if you don't want to risk people asking that information though....I find that it will sometimes come up in casual conversation and I can slip in that DS is intact. With my newer mommy friends, most are not mainstream so thankfully their DSs are intact and there are no issues! We will just discuss how we couldn't imagine doing that to a nonconsenting newborn. My next big worry is if our best friends who are pretty mainstream have a boy anytime in the near future and choose to circ. I know that will be really difficult for me (they have 2 under 2 as of this May, so hopefully we won't have to worry about that for awhile, but you never know! )

[benj]

Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler

Fortunately, the women don't have to worry about answering that question.

very true. i just know it would come up and even if i don't answer directly, they will assume something. for some reason, people think it matters.

Originally Posted by lawmama1984

Yes, Benj. I am very vocal! Even though circ rates are lower in Austin (probably a little over 50%), I think they are still relatively high all over Texas. When I told my (mainstream) friends I wasn't circ'ing they all said "gross" and other such things. I was that type of parent until I was (thankfully) educated by my doulas and my OB. Now, I love talking about it and sharing information, on the slim possibility I can help a young mother who otherwise would to reconsider. I am not sure if it would be an issue if I were a man, but I know my DH, who is circ'd and was as an infant, is very open about it (although probably not as much as I am haha). I can understand not wanting to be as vocal if you don't want to risk people asking that information though....I find that it will sometimes come up in casual conversation and I can slip in that DS is intact. With my newer mommy friends, most are not mainstream so thankfully their DSs are intact and there are no issues! We will just discuss how we couldn't imagine doing that to a nonconsenting newborn. My next big worry is if our best friends who are pretty mainstream have a boy anytime in the near future and choose to circ. I know that will be really difficult for me (they have 2 under 2 as of this May, so hopefully we won't have to worry about that for awhile, but you never know! )

i'm glad you're reaching people and they are listening. that's pretty cool that you have an influence like that. i can't necessarily do that! if a woman/mother says that intact is dirty or gross, i won't say anything. i wish i wasn't so insecure about, but i guess actions speak louder than words and both my sons are intact.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by lawmama1984

When I told my (mainstream) friends I wasn't circ'ing they all said "gross" and other such things.

I can't wrap my brain around this at all. How on earth do people get into a mental space where they think leaving a penis alone, the way it is at birth, is "gross", but forcibly cutting a piece of an infant's penis off isn't gross??

Ugh.

[notjustmamie]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I can't wrap my brain around this at all. How on earth do people get into a mental space where they think leaving a penis alone, the way it is at birth, is "gross", but forcibly cutting a piece of an infant's penis off isn't gross??

:

And keeping the healing wound covered by a regularly soiled diaper ... that's not gross?

[benj]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

I can't wrap my brain around this at all. How on earth do people get into a mental space where they think leaving a penis alone, the way it is at birth, is "gross", but forcibly cutting a piece of an infant's penis off isn't gross??

Ugh.

because they're brainwashed. a lot of people think they need to "fix" it. that was one of the reasons we didn't circ...the thought of looking at a baby's bloody penis for a week makes me sick.

[perspective]

Originally Posted by benj

i'm always afraid that if i talk about it, somebody will ask me if i'm circumcised...and i don't want to give that information out.

I know! I have the same issue. I am kind of a private person with that kind of stuff (a lot of people are when talking about their genitals) But as a guy the discussion gets very personal very quickly, and I am always worried they will ask me that. Its like once they know my "status" then they can find a argument to dismiss my views.
(ex. "o, your intact so your just envious", or "O, your cut? Do you have some problem with your body, are you one of those crazy guys who think they are broken. You should learn to be happy with who you are and stop telling parents what to do in their families.")

Its like why can't I just have a discussion on a fact basis, and not be forced to talk about private issues and then have that be distorted and be mocked.

Originally Posted by lawmama1984

As I was driving, I notice this car to my left passing me and two men sticking their hands out the window and making scissoring motions with their index and middle fingers!!! I think "Surely, they can't be doing that because of my bumper stickers." Well I pass them on the right again, and they do the same thing!!!! How sick?!?!

They may have had to use two fingers to make their gestures, but the gesture you should have given in response only needed one...

[benj]

Originally Posted by perspective

I know! I have the same issue. I am kind of a private person with that kind of stuff (a lot of people are when talking about their genitals) But as a guy the discussion gets very personal very quickly, and I am always worried they will ask me that. Its like once they know my "status" then they can find a argument to dismiss my views.
(ex. "o, your intact so your just envious", or "O, your cut? Do you have some problem with your body, are you one of those crazy guys who think they are broken. You should learn to be happy with who you are and stop telling parents what to do in their families.")

Its like why can't I just have a discussion on a fact basis, and not be forced to talk about private issues and then have that be distorted and be mocked.

yes, exactly. they can't seem to get around the fact that most guys aren't usually upset with the circumcision in itself, but that it was done without their consent. i always got heated when they talk about the "cleanliness" thing...i would always want to tell them i could clean myself just fine, but there's really no need to put my personal experience into an argument about facts. this is why i never joined in the conversations, just let them talk while i stayed silent. women, though, have it much easier because they don't have the "bias."

[lawmama1984]

Originally Posted by perspective

They may have had to use two fingers to make their gestures, but the gesture you should have given in response only needed one...

How right you are! If I hadn't been in such a state of shock (and also, I do live in Texas, so you never know with some people ), I just might have!

[Nandi]

I've definitely had the "i don't really care either way, i don't have a penis" attitude given to me by other women. So I think for guys to talk about it is actually more powerful to many people's minds because they can't seem to see it as a human rights issue.

[tutucrazy]

It always kills me how these people blame the foreskin on infections in 80 year-old hospitalized men. Could it be that the freaking nursing homes leave them in soiled diapers for hours on end and probably try to clean their genitals with harsh soaps????

My grandmother is in a nursing home and we went to visit her during Christmas. She lives very far from me. Anyway, she is in a wheel chair. She can't eat (feeding tube), she can't talk (stroke). Basically she needs very high care. Well entire time I visited her not 1 single nursing employee came to change her diaper. Finally after trying to track an employee down, I confronted them about why they left her in a diaper all day long without changing and they said that she has to tell them when she wants changed. So my grandmother who is wheelchair bound and can't speak is supposed to come find someone. It took me about 20 minutes to track someone down and I have two working legs. Anyway, my point is that all these dreadful "infections" you hear about are not due to foreskin problems. They are due to lack of care and improper care. I'm certain my poor grandma had some pretty yuck stuff going on down there. Gee, it must be those darn labia. Guess she should have been circumcised... :

[benj]

Originally Posted by Nandi

I've definitely had the "i don't really care either way, i don't have a penis" attitude given to me by other women. So I think for guys to talk about it is actually more powerful to many people's minds because they can't seem to see it as a human rights issue.

yeah, but the problem is that guys usually have not experienced both ways. the pro-circ people think that if a guy that was circumcised as an infant is not happy with it, there is something wrong with him and his personality, rather than the actual issue. and then if a guy is intact, they will also say things about his character. either way, it dismisses the actual issue. i was circumcised as an adult and i would never go around saying that everyone has to get it done because i did, however, not all guys think like that and use their personal experience to aid their argument. it's much better just to leave it out because personal preference is just that, personal.

[Pumpkinheadmommy]

I think it doesn't matter if you're male or female, pro-circ people are going to look for a way to dismiss you. I've been in debates where women will say they left it up to the man, because he has "the equipment" and should know best, but then when a man joins in to say he was circumcised and resents it, they dismiss him for not being happy with himself. Dismissal is just the tool they use to argue because they know they don't really have a valid argument. So, whether you're male or female, don't let them dismiss you. We're all humans who care about other humans, and that's what's important.

[mother culture]

Good for you for speaking your mind. I am sure you thought up better responses after, that is so typical. I alway leave it at it is his body and he is born perfect. There is no reason to cause him pain it has been well proven that it is not benificial.

[benj]

Originally Posted by Pumpkinheadmommy

I think it doesn't matter if you're male or female, pro-circ people are going to look for a way to dismiss you. I've been in debates where women will say they left it up to the man, because he has "the equipment" and should know best, but then when a man joins in to say he was circumcised and resents it, they dismiss him for not being happy with himself. Dismissal is just the tool they use to argue because they know they don't really have a valid argument. So, whether you're male or female, don't let them dismiss you. We're all humans who care about other humans, and that's what's important.

yes, that's true as well. you can't claim though that just because you have something that you know everything about it...and that you can represent everyone's position.

is it just me...or do pro-circ people remind you guys of conspiracy theorists? how many times do their arguments need to be refuted before they go, "hey, maybe my crazy theory doesn't hold as much water as i once thought it did."

they are not interested in studying the world as it is, and also not interested in logic.