What to do about vaxing this new baby?

[Julia24]

Can we HAVE this discussion here? I'm interested in these ladies point of view in particular.

So, I've been reviewing my favorite book (The Vaccine Book by. Dr. Sears)(and the vaccines board - I'm a lurker there) and I THINK I have it all worked out, but then I second guess myself.

What are you and are you NOT giving the babies for vaxs (theoretically) and why. I do NOT want to debate the merits of vaxing in general with any of you (I like you too much! ) I'd just like your point of view.

So - here's my tentative schedule:

2m Dtap
4m Pc, Hib,
6m Pc, Hib, Dtap
9m Pc, Hib
12m Pc, Hib
15m Dtap
18m Ckn Pox
2y Mmr, Polio
3y Polio
4y Mmr, Polio
5y Ckn Pox, Dtap

Skipping : Hep A, Hep B, Flu, Rotavirus, Meniggoccal and HPV are debatable right now - good thing they will have been around awhile by the time she should get them.

Delaying: Ckn Pox, Polio, MMR

With my last dd, I just knew I didn't want her to have SO many vaxs when she was so little - but I hadn't done any research, so I deferred to my pediatrition, who obviously knew what she was doing, bc she ended up focusing on the hib and pc bc they're the most serious and most common among babies (I believe if you delay for a long time, you don't even DO these shots - they're not even required for school)....Now, we're working on the Polio series with Grace....and before school she'll get the booster for the MMR and the Ckn Pox.

The MMR is scary to me - but I've done a lot of reading about the brain barrier that is much more mature by age 2 (you don't hear about kids becoming autistic past that point very often), so I'd like her to ultimately have it, and feel like that's a 'safer' time to administer it. The Ckn Pox - we're torn. It's such a mild disease in a healthy child - but in adults it's pretty bad. I have no memory of it, dh had it at 22 and remembers - but HE'S the one pushing to wave it off. I'm now thinking that maybe I'll delay that one until right before school? I'd like her not to miss too much school if she did get it, I can deal with it if she's a preschooler, yk?

I'm still uncomfortable with her getting the Dtap, Hib and Pc all at once though when she's so little....but I'm really leaning towards not wanting to risk having a 4m old in the dead of winter and being succeptible to all of those. (wish there was just a P - as opposed to a DTaP, yk?) On the other hand, I'm immunized, and my girls are both immunized for P - and this baby won't go to daycare - why am I so concerned about it?

ugh. And I'm still hemming about the vit K and eye drops at birth. Now I just read that in europe they don't do that - AT ALL....interesting to me that it's SUCH a big thing to do here and not utilized there. Same goes for Ckn Pox - not a vaccine that's given in any other industrialized nation. Hmmmm.....

Samantha- tell me about the 'virgin gut' thing you were talking about when deciding against an oral vit k? Which is one thing I'm contemplating?

[octobermoon]

i'm glad you posted...can it stay pretty please??? i am also interested in what my DDC mamas think.

i want to get that dr. sears book. i have done some research but honestly i so don't know what to do. i mean i am NOT doing the mainstream vax schedule i know that for sure...but i just don't know if we will delay or not vax at all. i need more info.

[hipmummy]

I highly reccommend the Sears Vaccine book to all Mama's It was not out until we had already started to selectivly vax ds. This time aound I will follow the most minimal of the Sears schedules. my doc follows his delayed schedule. The only con is hers a little tediuos as she does each shot seperate and that means a co pay every visit.

[joeys_mom]

DS is not vax'd and neither will this one. After researching and talking to experts, going to lectures and trusting my instincts I came to the decision that no vaxing was the best option for us.

Good Luck, this is a tough one.

[MichelleAnnette]

I highly recommend the Sears book. I actually got to hear him speak and then talk to him about my specific situation at an LLL conference recently. It was so great to actually TALK to a doc about vaxes. The conclusion that I came to for myself and my children is that the risks of vaccines outweigh the benefits for US at this time. I have reacted badly to vaccines twice in my life, once as an infant and once at age 10, and therefore am not fully vaxed and will not get any more without a serious reason. This can be genetic so my children are at increased risk of reacting badly.

I breastfeed and do not use day care so our disease risk is very small. I have never had the flu nor the flu vaccine in my life, even though I have been exposed to the flu. I have a good immune system (and I was breastfed for 6 years by the way). My son has never been so sick that I needed to call a doc. Because I have reacted badly to vaccines, we are so healthy, we have a good diet including breastfeeding, and we do not use daycare, we are not vaxing at all. We may consider the chicken pox vax later, like in 10-15 years. I had chicken pox at age 14 and it sucked, but really not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.

I will keep my children informed about vaxes as they grow so that they can make choices for themselves as teenagers and adults. We are always open to vaxing if we ever come to believe the the benefits outweigh the risks for us.

FYI, Dr. Sears said at the LLL conference that the most dangerous diseases to infants under 1 year are flu, pertussis, and rotavirus. You can vax the rest of the family for flu and pertussis but rotavirus is only given to infants and must be started by I THINK 14 weeks of age. I considered vaxing myself and my 2 yo son for pertussis but ultimately decided not to because of our small disease risk and the fact that I have reacted badly to vaccines (hubby is military and therefore must keep up with vaxes).

It's a tough decision. What helped me the most was to look at the whole issue for MY family, not at what I think everyone should do because really everyone should not necessarily make the same vax choices. I think vaxing should be considered on an individual basis. I don't believe in the one size fits all vax schedule.

Another thing Dr Sears said is that if you DO react badly, like even the fever and screaming that is believed to be normal, consider that a red flag. The reactions could get worse in the future.

[cristeen]

I'm in the no vax until age 2 camp - let their own immune system start working before I start screwing with it. And even after that I'm leaning towards no vax.

MMR and Varicella are absolutely no way - these are not diseases that I'm afraid of - I'm much more afraid of the vaxes. Polio has been eradicated in this country for something like 30 years, so I'm not going to do that one either. Hepatitis and HPV are ones that the child can choose to have when he's grown - they are not necessary at this stage in his life because neither dad nor I have Hep, blood transfusions are screened for it and that pretty much leaves sexual contact.

Hib is meningitis - and it only protects against one (or two?) strains of it. There are still quite a few other strains that it doesn't protect against, yet doctors are less likely to diagnose it properly if the child has had the vax.

Of the Dtap, the Tetanus portion doesn't really scare me - if there's a need for it, I'd rather get the immunoglobulin. And the vax doesn't prevent transmission or infection from Diptheria or Pertussis, so you can get it, have it and be contagious but think you just have a cold because of the way the vaxes work (suppressing the toxin caused by the bacteria, but not the bacteria itself).

Which pretty much leaves flu and smallpox. Smallpox is another that has been eradicated for years in the US. And I don't see the point in vaxing against the flu - this year's vax is against last year's strain, so chances are good that the immunity is already in place. It does nothing to prevent getting this year's strain.

Of course, the sticking point is in convincing DH of all of that... but IMO essentially the best thing I can do is provide good nutrition and encourage good healthy habits to support a strong natural immune system.

[jimblejamble]

No chickenpox, flu, hep A, hep B, rotavirus, or HPV. All the rest will be delayed and the aluminum-free versions.

Nothing given at birth except breatmilk, a bath, and lots of hugs and kisses.

[jimblejamble]

Originally Posted by cristeen

Which pretty much leaves flu and smallpox. Smallpox is another that has been eradicated for years in the US.

I don't think smallpox is routinely given anymore. My husband just got it because he's going to Afghanistan next month but unless you're military & getting ready to be deployed overseas I don't think you need to worry about it.

(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

[2boyzmama]

Eek, talk about a heavy topic! I think we can probably manage to keep it here on our DDC instead of it being moved to the vax forum if we focus it around the month our babies are being born, and how that is effecting our vax decisions.

First of all, Julia, you asked about Virgin gut. I don't have any links to share right now, I'll have to pull some up. Basically, this is how I understand it...at birth, a baby's intestines are coated with meconium, which will be passed in the first couple days. Baby ingests mom's colostrum which provides a protective coating to the baby's intestines, forming an immunological barrier so viruses and bacteria can't be absorbed through the digestive tracks. You mentioned MMR and blood/brain barrier, there's some thought about how the virus can be found in the intestines of some kids with Autism. Most drs will agree that the digestive system is the basis of the immune system. So colostrum coats the intestines, then breastmilk follows. As long as the babies gut remains "virgin" i.e. not ingesting anything other than breastmilk, that protective barrier from the colostrum will remain. I've read some studies about HIV positive mothers, although HIV can be present in breastmilk, if the baby has a virgin gut, baby is at very very low risk of contracting the virus. I think this is coming out jumbled...but it's research that is sort of in its infancy and I think has a lot of stock behind it. I want to go look it up again...if I find good links, I'll pass them on. In a recent blog entry I discussed my thought process on Vit K...I'm still in the deciding phase on that one, but it makes sense to me that there's a biological reason why we're born with low levels, so maybe it's something we shouldn't mess with. What I'm researching is to see if humans have always been this way, or if something has changed (dietary, environmentally, genetically, etc) that makes babies born today have much lower levels than babies born 2000 years ago.

Okay...so to vaccines. I vaccinated Ian almost fully...skipped Hep A and B, and flu, delayed DTaP because of family history of reaction, and wanted to skip Chicken Pox, but my husband took him to that appt and didn't know varicella was the same as chicken pox. (interestingly, Ian did get chicken pox last summer, and even got a worse case than Connor, even though Connor is not vaccinated against it) A lot of it didn't occur to me to question, honestly.

Connor was extremely sick as an infant with an unknown complex syndrome (we got his diagnosis at 11 months old). At first he was too unstable to receive any vaxes, and then he was so *tiny* so the dosage worried me (i.e. he was much smaller than Ian had been when Ian received the vaxes) so I started researching it. Why is the dose the same for a 10 pounder vs a 20 pounder?? In the process of researching it, I discovered that if some are delayed past the first year, they either have less doses, or they aren't needed at all. Why? That got me researching more and more...

I *really* wanted to give Connor DTaP because he had a pretty serious airway malformation which would make pertussis very deadly to him. Around that time, though, it became obvious that something was wrong with his immune system, so we started focussing on that instead. Turns out, he has a Primary Immune Deficiency associated with his syndrome, and guess what? Children with his type of immune deficiency should not receive live virus vaccines. And further...he has proven through illnesses that his immune system does not appear capable of mounting an appropriate response to an illness he's previously had...for example, he had a terrible (I mean really terrible) ear infection from the SAME bacteria (we cultured it) for 9 WEEKS, despite being on three different antibiotics that killed the bacteria in the lab culture. He got RSV twice, despite receiving the immunoglobulin injections specifically designed for kids like him who are at risk for that virus. He got chicken pox and was actively shedding the virus for 9 weeks, despite being on anti viral drugs nearly the whole time. This immunological behavior suggests that he won't be able to mount an appropriate immunological response to a vaccine, either.

Anyway...it's been a long process with him...it's hard because most parents can look at the description of an illness like measles and make an educated decision on whether the disease is scary enough to warrant the side effects of the vaccine. I can do that with Ian, and without a doubt, most of them don't scare me in the slightest, or the risk of him contracting it is awfully small, or there is effective treatment readily available. But with Connor? He's very susceptible, he spends a lot of time in hospitals, treatments aren't effective for him, and he won't acquire life long immunity. And because of his other underlying medical issues, he WILL be the kid who has serious side effects, he COULD die from the measles.

I can talk myself into circles over and over with Connor, but with Ian it's a pretty simple decision. He's healthy, he's strong, we have a good ped, we have two very good children's hospitals near us, we're informed on what symptoms of various illnesses are, and we work to make sure his immune system is at peak functioning level by monitoring his food, exercise, sleep, natural vitamins, etc etc.

For this baby...some of the illnesses that worry me the most are the winter illnesses, but baby will be exclusively breastfed and not in daycare. Now I do pause because both Ian and Connor will be in preschool and could bring home who knows what bugs, and you know that Connor will bring home every bug that goes around. But my research into an infant's immune system is still bringing me back to the decision that similar benefit can be obtained by exclusively breastfeeding as from vaxing.

I'm not sure what we'll do as the boys get older. I'm going to test titers to mumps when the boys are 10-ish, same with chicken pox. If they are both immune, then we're done. If they're not, then I'll have to re-research. There is a slight chance that mumps can cause some reproductive issues for boys, but it's rather low, and obviously not an issue pre adolescence. Chicken pox can be worse for an adult, but I'd much rather they acquire natural immunity. I won't do HiB or PCV because of the serum replacement issues. I'll leave the hepatitis decision up to them, they can decide if they are a high risk group. HPV is coming out for boys, that's again one I'll leave up to them to decide, because it's not something they're at risk for now.

[mormontreehugger]

Originally Posted by cristeen

I'm in the no vax until age 2 camp - let their own immune system start working before I start screwing with it. And even after that I'm leaning towards no vax.

MMR and Varicella are absolutely no way - these are not diseases that I'm afraid of - I'm much more afraid of the vaxes. Polio has been eradicated in this country for something like 30 years, so I'm not going to do that one either. Hepatitis and HPV are ones that the child can choose to have when he's grown - they are not necessary at this stage in his life because neither dad nor I have Hep, blood transfusions are screened for it and that pretty much leaves sexual contact.

Hib is meningitis - and it only protects against one (or two?) strains of it. There are still quite a few other strains that it doesn't protect against, yet doctors are less likely to diagnose it properly if the child has had the vax.

Of the Dtap, the Tetanus portion doesn't really scare me - if there's a need for it, I'd rather get the immunoglobulin. And the vax doesn't prevent transmission or infection from Diptheria or Pertussis, so you can get it, have it and be contagious but think you just have a cold because of the way the vaxes work (suppressing the toxin caused by the bacteria, but not the bacteria itself).

Which pretty much leaves flu and smallpox. Smallpox is another that has been eradicated for years in the US. And I don't see the point in vaxing against the flu - this year's vax is against last year's strain, so chances are good that the immunity is already in place. It does nothing to prevent getting this year's strain.

Of course, the sticking point is in convincing DH of all of that... but IMO essentially the best thing I can do is provide good nutrition and encourage good healthy habits to support a strong natural immune system.

Pretty much all of the above, except I don't think we'll ever vaccinate unless we move to India or something (which is technically a possibility in DH's career field) and even then I'd revisit the issue to see if the vaccinations even work. Once I looked at the numbers on everything I felt a lot better about skipping them. MMR especially--dangerous complications from these illnesses in this country and in this day and age are SO rare that I'd consider it much more likely to have a reaction to the vaccine than to the illness itself. Also, the incident rate is pretty low.
I'm defaulting with the immune system instead of the drug. That said, I think it's very important to keep the immune system boosted with healthy eating, breastfeeding etc. We will also not be doing any kind of childcare, which made me feel better about the pertussis thing.
Interesting thing about pertussis--the most dangerous time for baby to catch it is in the first 6 months. If you vaccinate, they're not fully protected until AFTER 6 months. So why bother?

Chicken pox vaccine = for me. I'll get the titers checked when they're adolescents and revisit the issue if they have no immunity. However, the vaccine has been causing shingles in kids, and basically only works about 70% of the time and requires more and more booster shots bla bla bla I wouldn't go near one of those....

The most important thing for me while I was researching this issue was that I avoided ANYTHING that was put forward to incite fear. I won't make a big decision based on fear--of illness OR vaccines. It's how I stayed objective and it's a pretty good defense against people who violently disagree with me... ("this lady is a crazy quack!" "yeah, I got my research elsewhere" "oh")

Bottom line: if you feel adequately informed on the diseases themselves and how to recognize and treat them IF you even get them, and you're living a healthy lifestyle, then vaccines don't have to be in the picture IMHO. this is without even getting into if they work or not, or if there are long term reactions to them etc etc. That's a whole new field of research.

[Julia24]

Hmmm - you guys have given me more to think about. I think one of the things that bothers me, is that I run a home daycare and my husband is a high school teacher - he brings EVERYTHING home, and somehow we mostly manage to avoid being sick very often - I'm actually quite proud of how healthy my kids have always been......but none the less....

But - then I'm going to have these vaccinated kids 'shedding' with my unvaccinated baby around? that's problematic too.

Ugh - I wish I felt confident about my choices, I just really don't know what is the 'right' thing to do for our family.

I had a reaction to the DPT or whatever the heck it was called when I was little (in the late 70s) but neither of my girls have (and that was when it was a live virus, which it isn't anymore) - but my Mom has since been diagnosed with Lupus, maybe that's something to be concerned about?

Ugh!

[Lula's Mom]

We don't vax at all. I thought I would after age 2 with my dd, but at that point I had learned enough to convince me that it was not something I wanted to do. I feel comfortable that if they do catch something that people routinely vax for, we can deal with it. I don't feel comfortable with the ingredients in vaccines. So it was simple to decide.

My dd has had pertussis, which I treated aggressively with Vitamin C. Both kids had chicken pox last year (we sought that one out).

[kismetbaby]

Oh boy. . .I am going to have to come back to this thread after next week when I have more time. This is one of those big ones that I haven't even begun to research yet.

I have one question though. . .my DH and I travel overseas almost every year as his family lives in Israel (and we often stop in Europe too). Will this affect my decisions about vaxing? Do they require vax for a passport or anything like that?

Other than that issue, I know I want o delay vax. . .I lean towards no vaxing, but I need to do more research.

[jimblejamble]

Originally Posted by kismetbaby

I have one question though. . .my DH and I travel overseas almost every year as his family lives in Israel (and we often stop in Europe too). Will this affect my decisions about vaxing? Do they require vax for a passport or anything like that?.

Dr. Sears' book talks about how your decision on each vaccine effects international travel.

[kismetbaby]

Originally Posted by JessicaRenee

Dr. Sears' book talks about how your decision on each vaccine effects international travel.

Thanks. . .I guess that book is a "must"!

[dosergirl]

i still need to get this book, as it was bumped on my wish list for something else, i think the birth partner.

but i will say that we will mostly follow the routine vax schedule (funny that puts me in the minority here) i won't do chicken pox or hpv and i need to read more about the hep vaccines so that one is iffy.

we feel fairly strongly about vaccinating. we travel overseas and really i have no idea what countries we might be going to in the near future. (i'm interested in what dr sears says about this. )

i respect everyones decision as their own, of course.

i have always had a terrible immune system. i was very sick as a child and so was dp. nothing related to vaccines, no adverse reactions or anything. i just feel better with the vaccines.

[cristeen]

Originally Posted by kismetbaby

I have one question though. . .my DH and I travel overseas almost every year as his family lives in Israel (and we often stop in Europe too). Will this affect my decisions about vaxing? Do they require vax for a passport or anything like that?

There are very few places that you MUST have certain vaxes in order to enter. There are places where it is certainly advised to get certain vaxes, though. I would look into what vaxes are recommended for those particular countries you visit and do the same research as far as effects of the disease, etc. There are certain diseases I would consider vaxing for if I were traveling to countries where they were a problem. Smallpox and polio are the first two that come to mind - meaning that I wouldn't rule them out, but because they're not an issue in the US I haven't done the research on them, so if I were planning a trip, I'd start researching.

But no, the state department (of the US) does not require vax records to issue a passport.

[dosergirl]

i found this site where you can look up the country and see what is recommended for vaccines if you are traveling

http://www.mdtravelhealth.com/index.html

it has ages as well, like some will say, over the age of 1.

[mommam]

We too delayed until ds was 2 and have yet to do any, and I think we will avoid them as he is the healthiest little bug I ever saw - not even a cold when dh and I got sick (dh is in restaurant sales so we get a lot of exposure plus the little guy I care for, his mommys a naturopathic doc and midwifery student, so lots coming that way too) or when all the kids his age I knew of were getting pneumonia. So I think we will keep wil the no vax with the new lo. Ds was born in January and the winter thing didn't seem to affect him.

We have considered the tetanus, because ds is so active and it is present in the "local" soil according to my friend. Unfortunately (or perhaps not) there is currently no tetanus only vax, and the DT and DTaP have either thimerosol or aluminum in them. For now I lean toward just getting the immunoglobulin if needed. And if there did come a mercuryfree/low aluminum tetanus shot, ds might get it but we'd wait until 2 yrs for lo.

If we ever traveled out of the country there are some we would consider then, especially polio.

[xelakann]

Originally Posted by cristeen

I'm in the no vax until age 2 camp - let their own immune system start working before I start screwing with it. And even after that I'm leaning towards no vax.

MMR and Varicella are absolutely no way - these are not diseases that I'm afraid of - I'm much more afraid of the vaxes. Polio has been eradicated in this country for something like 30 years, so I'm not going to do that one either. Hepatitis and HPV are ones that the child can choose to have when he's grown - they are not necessary at this stage in his life because neither dad nor I have Hep, blood transfusions are screened for it and that pretty much leaves sexual contact.

Hib is meningitis - and it only protects against one (or two?) strains of it. There are still quite a few other strains that it doesn't protect against, yet doctors are less likely to diagnose it properly if the child has had the vax.

Of the Dtap, the Tetanus portion doesn't really scare me - if there's a need for it, I'd rather get the immunoglobulin. And the vax doesn't prevent transmission or infection from Diptheria or Pertussis, so you can get it, have it and be contagious but think you just have a cold because of the way the vaxes work (suppressing the toxin caused by the bacteria, but not the bacteria itself).

Which pretty much leaves flu and smallpox. Smallpox is another that has been eradicated for years in the US. And I don't see the point in vaxing against the flu - this year's vax is against last year's strain, so chances are good that the immunity is already in place. It does nothing to prevent getting this year's strain.

Of course, the sticking point is in convincing DH of all of that... but IMO essentially the best thing I can do is provide good nutrition and encourage good healthy habits to support a strong natural immune system.

Pretty agree with all of this. About the bolded text... I was reading NY Times article where they were looking at 156 cases of Pertussis. Out of the 156 cases 18 children werent' vaxed, which means 138 of the cases were vaxed kids. Of course I know stats can be sketchy and skewed it was interesting.

We are doing tetnus with my 18 month old this week as we spend a lot of time in our garden and outdoors. But that is it for him until he's two. But even then we will be very selective. And hopefully he is going to get chicken pox this week (the real thing not the vax)!!