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Help me sort out my reaction to a mainstream mama - Page 3

post #41 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkiethridge View Post
I think as AP and NFLiving moms, we are all going to have those 'issues' with other parents that really strike a cord with us.

Mine are CIO and people who are just so ignorantly pro-circ, it's insane. I can't be friends with those types of people. Seriously, sometimes we just have to stay away from certain type of parenting because of how wrong we know it is. I'm not saying that these people don't love their kids, but it would just tear my heart apart being around someone who can do such things and not be bothered by it.
This.

I haven't read the whole thread, but this is exactly how I feel. Sometimes even here on MDC I feel like the range of perspectives crosses away from what I would be comfortable being friends with.
post #42 of 97
I don't hang out w/ mainstream parents, but I'm lucky to have found a group of like minded moms through LLL. I tried some playgroups w/ mainstream moms but always felt like an oddball and/or uncomfortable, it wasn't worth it.
post #43 of 97
Oh I know how you feel! I am trying to do 24/7 AP....cosleeping and babywearing all day, all night, every day, every night.

Then I hear some of my friends talk about their baby's daycare schedule for the summer...how they are so excited they got "extended" hours. As one said, "Now I can have some downtime afterwork, then just pick him up and put him to bed!"

I simultaneously want to :Puke but at the same time I am jealous b/c I am tired and bored and the laundry needs to be done and my hair is a mess and I take 5 minute showers so my legs are never clean shaven etc etc etc
post #44 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkiethridge View Post
I think as AP and NFLiving moms, we are all going to have those 'issues' with other parents that really strike a cord with us.

Mine are CIO and people who are just so ignorantly pro-circ, it's insane. I can't be friends with those types of people. Seriously, sometimes we just have to stay away from certain type of parenting because of how wrong we know it is. I'm not saying that these people don't love their kids, but it would just tear my heart apart being around someone who can do such things and not be bothered by it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sisteeesmama View Post
This.

I haven't read the whole thread, but this is exactly how I feel. Sometimes even here on MDC I feel like the range of perspectives crosses away from what I would be comfortable being friends with.
Oh this is the perfect way to put it! Excepting my mom, and even then we are at a difference in some places, everyone I know is mainstream. I don't know anyone who is supportive of things such as babywearing, AP, non-CIO, co-sleeping, vaccine-free, TF, etc etc.

But I am perfectly able to be friends w/ some people b/c even though they feed their kids junk or fully vaccinate, they are at heart very loving parents. And I can respect that and understand that we are all at different places on the journey.

But things like CIO, physical discipline and some attitudes are just unbearable.
post #45 of 97
Quote:
I think you are being a little defensive because you are trying to validate your own experience with CIO. And like I said I understand that some of us need to FF and some of us need to get elective CS and all that, but no one NEEDS to let a LO CIO.
No it is not that I am defensive about that particular issue. I am very confident it was the right decision for the whole family at that particular point in time, it worked quickly and I was a better mom for it, and my children had better care from mom for it. What bothers me about this is the judgment back and forth on various issues. I really do not get it! I have spent most of my career working with moms and babies both before and after I had my own children. So many times women are judgemental about others on baby/kid topics, and in this thread, judgemental to the point of not even wanting to be friends! I've seen this being a mom myself, at work, in moms group both as a facilatator and a participant, on internet formums and I am just tired of it! Think of all the posts you have read on here about how people feel judged or hear snide comments from others becasue they BF a 2 year old or refuse TV!

I didn't circumcise my children, because there was no reason to do it, but I do have friends who have. I can't imagine not befriending someone based on something like that, because the choices they make are their choices to make, not mine. If someone asks an opinion or for information, then I might say something, but otherwise all I am doing is alienating them. What better way to change view points than to be an example. If more people were to carry their babies around in the mall instead of strapping them into a carseat in a stroller or BF toddlers in public or "whatever your thing is" then it wouldn't seem "weird" and more people would do it, so why not be friends?
post #46 of 97
Quote:
I think you are being a little defensive because you are trying to validate your own experience with CIO. And like I said I understand that some of us need to FF and some of us need to get elective CS and all that, but no one NEEDS to let a LO CIO.
No it is not that I am defensive about that particular issue. I am very confident it was the right decision for the whole family at that particular point in time, it worked quickly and I was a better mom for it, and my children had better care from mom for it. What bothers me about this is the judgment back and forth on various issues. I really do not get it! I have spent most of my career working with moms and babies both before and after I had my own children. So many times women are judgemental about others on baby/kid topics, and in this thread, judgemental to the point of not even wanting to be friends! I've seen this being a mom myself, at work, in moms group both as a facilatator and a participant, on internet formums and I am just tired of it! Think of all the posts you have read on here about how people feel judged or hear snide comments from others becasue they BF a 2 year old or refuse TV!

I didn't circumcise my children, because there was no reason to do it, but I do have friends who have. I can't imagine not befriending someone based on something like that, because the choices they make are their choices to make, not mine. If someone asks an opinion or for information, then I might say something, but otherwise all I am doing is alienating them. What better way to change view points than to be an example. If more people were to carry their babies around in the mall instead of strapping them into a carseat in a stroller or BF toddlers in public or "whatever your thing is" then it wouldn't seem "weird" and more people would do it, so why not be friends?
post #47 of 97
This is more of an issue with new moms. When babies get older (pre-school), this type of conversation just doesn't happen. At all. Thankfully.

I will say that I shot myself in the foot by getting along with someone on a personal level but not agreeing with their parenting style and not being friends. I thought friends could grow on trees and that there would have to be more people like me out there! Wrong.

No matter how you parent, AP or not, you will never.ever.ever agree with another parent 100% on issues, that IMO, are not conversation points.

If you get along with someone, in most circumstances, keep them close. Or, if you like being locked in your house for years like I chose to do by being way too choosy, go for it.

In retrospect, I needed to lighten up. How others parent their kids means little to me. I may not agree, but as long as they think they are doing the right thing and aren't abusing (real abuse) them, whatever. The kids love to play and I can talk about the news and laugh. I don't want to talk about breastfeeding or cracked nipples or birthing. I want to talk about the funny thing I saw the other day, or a good book I read. Life is about getting along with all sorts of people. I have learned that.

As your babe grows up, really, these inane conversations will stop. Make sure that when they are done there is somebody left.
post #48 of 97
To the OP, you are normal. You are a first time mom and that's how I was... I was very sensitive to certain things.

By baby # 2, I just mellowed out. I made a new mommy friend, who was in the AP realm (but not 100% as she did CIO). I was shocked as she put her baby down for a nap and let her cry and then she quieted down. But I just let it go. I made a conscious decision not to hold that against her. I saw her as misguided, but she's the mom... she decides what's best for her family, regardless of what I think. I'm sure she sees me as misguided sometimes. Whatever.

Our daughters are best buds now and the person who said you will NEVER agree 100% on everything is right.

I try to remain open and non-judgmental (to avoid all yucky feelings) and welcome friendship (authentic friendships - hard to come by).

I'm by no means perfect. I did some very "right" AP things, but some very wrong (too permissive with discipline and didn't realize it for years). I hardly have the right to judge any other mother.

And the other thing is that I realize I am a much happier person when I don't want around judging other people. (I'm not saying you are smug.) I try not to judge anyone. It really helps me feel light and sane.
post #49 of 97
Quote:
This is more of an issue with new moms. When babies get older (pre-school), this type of conversation just doesn't happen. At all. Thankfully.

I will say that I shot myself in the foot by getting along with someone on a personal level but not agreeing with their parenting style and not being friends. I thought friends could grow on trees and that there would have to be more people like me out there! Wrong.

No matter how you parent, AP or not, you will never.ever.ever agree with another parent 100% on issues, that IMO, are not conversation points.

If you get along with someone, in most circumstances, keep them close. Or, if you like being locked in your house for years like I chose to do by being way too choosy, go for it.

In retrospect, I needed to lighten up. How others parent their kids means little to me. I may not agree, but as long as they think they are doing the right thing and aren't abusing (real abuse) them, whatever. The kids love to play and I can talk about the news and laugh. I don't want to talk about breastfeeding or cracked nipples or birthing. I want to talk about the funny thing I saw the other day, or a good book I read. Life is about getting along with all sorts of people. I have learned that.

As your babe grows up, really, these inane conversations will stop. Make sure that when they are done there is somebody left.


So true. I love this post.
post #50 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by babymommy2 View Post
I didn't circumcise my children, because there was no reason to do it, but I do have friends who have. I can't imagine not befriending someone based on something like that, because the choices they make are their choices to make, not mine.
Uh... really? Why do you think it is a parent's perogative to remove part of an infant's genitals in an unnecessary cosmetic surgery that doesn't even include anesthetia? I call that a human rights violation. That baby's body belongs to HIM, not his parents. It's not even remotely okay. And it won't stop unless people speak up against it, rather than shrug their shoulders and say, "oh well, parent's choice."

I, like most people, become friends with others because we share common ground and can support each other in our lives. Seeing children as people with rights, feelings, integrity, and a need for connection is an essential to me. Actually, nothing is more important than that to me.

And yep, I lost some friends when I became a parent. It was hard and disappointing. And then I made some new ones. It's part of the normal process of growth.

Today, I'm very, very glad that I'm not wasting time on people who don't get my parenting. And that I don't have to explain to my child why Johnny's missing part of his penis, or why Rosie's crying but the people who love her are choosing to ignore it rather than give her comfort. I wouldn't want to normalize those things for him.

As pps have said, the pain of dealing with other people's choices lessens as the kids grow older. It's much easier to be around the CIO crowd with a kid, rather than an infant. But I've also noticed a big, BIG correlation between the 4-5-6 year olds who CIO as babies and the ones who bully on the playground. Making me all the happier that I'm not friends with their mums, lol!
post #51 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by green betty View Post

. But I've also noticed a big, BIG correlation between the 4-5-6 year olds who CIO as babies and the ones who bully on the playground. Making me all the happier that I'm not friends with their mums, lol!
Really? I think that is really, really unfair. I think it would be just as easy for a mainstream parent to say "I see a huge correlation between the Mommas that use gentle discipline and those children on the playground who don't share, push and don't listen ".

See what I mean? Either way it is super judgmental! Isn't that a complaint we see constantly here? "I also feel like I am being judged"? I have yet to see a study that says babes that CIO are more inclined to become bullies and for you to make that assumption is ignorant. Just as a statement that says extended BF and GD causes kids to be brats.
post #52 of 97
There is a seminal difference between blanket judgement and critical thought. As I mentioned, I live in a very small town--I'm not assuming that the kids I see bullying others were left to CIO, I know that they were because I know everyone and far too much about them, lol! My statement is an evidence-based observation. What's more, it's a logical one. Why wouldn't a lack of consistent empathy in a child's experience (ie being left alone to cry it out) result in a lack of consistent empathy in the child's behavior (ie bullying?)

Mainstream mamas are free to observe and think whatever they do about me and my child and other gently nurtured, attached children. It doesn't keep me up at night. So what if they do? My life is about living *my* values, not trying to win a popularity contest.
post #53 of 97
I go to a local playgroup, and there are lots of moms who have different ideas, or some I just don't like. Sometimes I meet one I really click with. Most of the time I can pick up something interesting, even from the most unlikely people. But I really go for my kids to have some fun, so that's the focus for me.

I also would say, parenting styles don't stay the same. I am a lot more AP with dd2, because I have more experience and confidence, but also because I have seen more parents who had good ideas that worked, and got great resources from them. I am sorry to say I did use CIO with dd1, and someone just said to me once "Was it really important that she sleep like your friends kids?" Not rudely, just asking the question. And now I ask myself that a lot, and it totally relieves pressures from myself or other people.

So I think it can be very positive to mix with other people, and not live in a little AP tower (which is not what I think the OP is doing, but it does seem to be a tendency.)

It's like NIP - if you can begin to just show a different way to do things, you are giving so many new moms a bunch of possibilities that really may never have occurred to them.
post #54 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldingoddess View Post
When she started explaining how she got her LO to STTN, I actually said, "oh no, you didn't let him CIO did you?" and she said well he only really cried for 5 minutes. I left immediately after that exchange.
I just wanted to chime in and say that I think this is a rude statement too. How would you feel if someone said "oh no, you don't let him sleep in your bed do you?" or "you're not one of those people who breastfeeds for years are you?" It automatically puts the other person on the defensive and makes them feel judged, and that's no way to engage dialogue.
post #55 of 97
I don't think making friends of varying levels of intimacy is trying to win a popularity contest, personally. And IMO, part of my values are not shutting people out except in cases where they are actively doing me or my family harm, but instead engaging them in a positive, nonadversarial manner to get them to critically think about their choices. So many "choices" are made just because people just do what they know, and they've never been shown or taught any differently. Hell, if I would have parented the way I *thought* I was going to before I had kids, any number of you could be talking about me as the dreaded mainstream mom in this thread...I just happened to have a lightbulb moment or three when my firstborn was an infant, and came into contact with enough supportive, positive, gentle information about attachment parenting that I've come to be the parent I am today. Not every parent has those lightbulb moments on their own though; I was just lucky, I guess.

I've reached many women and had them get into GD, EBF, babywearing, and cosleeping, just by being open and not preachy, and not avoiding them because they're doing things differently than I am. Even though sometimes it's WAY differently than I am.

As I said before, I never stay quiet or condone what they're doing, but I also don't alienate people; I've never had a person react rudely or offensively to me, even if they don't agree with what I'm saying.

I guess the bottom line is while I don't feel like I'm trying to win a popularity contest, I DO feel like AP is good for children and by extension good for the future of the world, and I want to try to facilitate that for my *own* kids, as well as my own future.
post #56 of 97
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post #57 of 97
I think a lot of mamas do CIO and other mainstream parenting because it's what the "experts" tell them to do and they really think it's what is best for their babies.

I know a lot of moms who let their babies CIO because the dr told them to, but they had a really hard time listening to their babies cry.

I think it's a reflection of our culture that women are encouraged to go against their instincts and listen to "experts" about how to raise their babies.

But at the same time, if you're a new mom and your dr is telling you to let your LO CIO and all your family and friends are telling you that CIO is the only way to get your baby to sleep and that it's not harmful, I can see why you would resort to CIO.

SO I try not to be judgmental because so many women don't realize that it's ok to listen to their instincts. So many moms just go along with what the culture says is normal - CIO, circing, vaxing, ff, etc.

I would have a hard time being friends with someone who is huge advocate of these things and judges my AP style. However, if someone just does these things I would assume that maybe they don't know any better, and I wouldn't hold it against them.

If these mainstream moms are ok with your parenting style,I wouldn't run away from the relationships. Maybe it will make them rethink the way they do things
post #58 of 97
Quote:
Today, I'm very, very glad that I'm not wasting time on people who don't get my parenting. And that I don't have to explain to my child why Johnny's missing part of his penis, or why Rosie's crying but the people who love her are choosing to ignore it rather than give her comfort. I wouldn't want to normalize those things for him.

I agree with what you are saying about circumcision in that it is cosmetic, a normal part of the body, etc, and why we haven't done it, but what I disagree with is deliberatly choosing to not be friends with someone because of it. I don't think so much that avoiding people with differing views will normalize it for my children, I think that being yourself around people with differeing views normalizes it for them.

I teach a particular class and I ask the question how common is circumsicion here? Generally people will say 60, 70, 80% of people circumcise. The answer is 44% and many people are shocked! by this. I think it normalizes that the majority of people here do not cirumcise and the rates have gone down a lot. The canadian average is 27% (this is data from 2007). If more new parents had exposure to the idea of not circumsing, they probably woulnd;t think that 70 % of people do it. And a lot of people chose it to look like dad or to be like other kids, or misinformation on health/hygiene. It is like the argument in the BF community of instead of calling formula, formula it should be called artificial baby milk, or that instead of saying that Breastmilk decreases allergies, say that formula increases allergies. It is changing the perspective to normalize what it is you are doing and you can't normalize to the community at large if you stay in a tight little group of only people who think the way you do.
post #59 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedaisy View Post
I think a lot of mamas do CIO and other mainstream parenting because it's what the "experts" tell them to do and they really think it's what is best for their babies.

I know a lot of moms who let their babies CIO because the dr told them to, but they had a really hard time listening to their babies cry.

I think it's a reflection of our culture that women are encouraged to go against their instincts and listen to "experts" about how to raise their babies.

But at the same time, if you're a new mom and your dr is telling you to let your LO CIO and all your family and friends are telling you that CIO is the only way to get your baby to sleep and that it's not harmful, I can see why you would resort to CIO.

SO I try not to be judgmental because so many women don't realize that it's ok to listen to their instincts. So many moms just go along with what the culture says is normal - CIO, circing, vaxing, ff, etc.

I would have a hard time being friends with someone who is huge advocate of these things and judges my AP style. However, if someone just does these things I would assume that maybe they don't know any better, and I wouldn't hold it against them.

If these mainstream moms are ok with your parenting style,I wouldn't run away from the relationships. Maybe it will make them rethink the way they do things
I agree! I just can't imagine thinking that another parent is inferior or doesn't love their child b/c they CIO or FF. I am refuse to be led down a path that believes that babies that CIO will become bullies and non empathetic. I find all of this broad brush painting to be quite a turn off from the AP lifestyle.

If a new Mom were coming here for information and was being told that any past choices they made were "child abuse"...how would that make you feel? Imagine your reaction if someone told you the extended BF were child abuse? It would be an utter turn off, right? I would think the goal here would be acceptance, guidance, information and support. Unfortunately, more and more on these boards I am seeing judging, selfishness and superiority. That makes me sad.
post #60 of 97
When a mama tells me that her baby cried for five minutes, I believe her. I'm unsure why being opposed to CIO would mean not believing another woman when she talks about her parenting experience.

As a mama who only has one child, it was very easy for me to "never." Now that my kid is seventeen and having met hundreds of mamas along the way, I have very, very few "nevers" left. I also no longer see most parenting choices as purely "good v. bad." Honestly, by the late teens, I have not noticed a differece in kids I know whose parents used CIO and those who didn't.

I am far more AP as the mother of a teen than I was as the mother of a baby/toddler. And there is even less support for staying attached to your pre-teen/teen, especially if you are parenting a boychild. If you're in this for the long haul, I predict you'll be at least a bit suprised by the company you are keeping when your kids are teens.
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